Is Jesus A Prophet According To The Old Testament?

eanassir

Time Out
Jul 26, 2007
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I didn't say it was unimportant, I said we don't know, and I'd rather not know than believe something as patently absurd as what you're offering. For instance:

Do you not perceive the illogic of that? If I've been misguided, and only god can do that, I can only conclude that god is deliberately misguiding me to a pretty nasty doom, if your descriptions of what awaits unbelievers are to be believed, for some inscrutable reasons of his own. It should hardly surprise you that a thoughtful person would reject that god as being not worthy of unconditional admiration. There's not even any point in you telling me I've been misguided, there's nothing you or I or anyone but god can do about it. I'm doomed, I cannot save myself, it all depends on the whim of the deity, all things are as Allah prescribes. That's an absurd and pointless fatalism I utterly reject.

The explanation of this subject is as follows:

The apostle [every apostle] comes to his people and invites them to glorify and worship God alone: this is the principal thing in his mission, and this will make them succeed if they believe or lose if they disbelieve.

Now his people will divide into two parties:
· Some of them who are wrong-doers; God dislikes the wrong-doer, and will leave them to Satan and his devils to confuse them with their suggestions, and make the disbelief seem fair to them, and they suggest to them that their apostle is a liar, impostor and it is better to disregard him and keep up on their lusts and social friendships and advantages and their wronging each other and transgression on the apostle himself and his followers --> and so such wrong-doers will dislike the idea and will disbelieve and keep up on their idolatry and enthusiasm and associating other patrons with God Almighty and so they will increase in their disbelief and antagonism of the apostle.

· The other party: kind-hearted, merciful to the orphan, widow and the weak; these God likes them and like to guide them; so He orders His angels to inspire into them that the apostle is truthful in his mission, and the idols are useless stones; so the angels will keep inspiring them until they will be convinced and come to the apostle and follow him for the cause of God.

So the first party will start following the suggestion of devils, and will mock the apostle and antagonize him, and they will lose in the afterlife and will be punished.

While the second party will believe, and their belief will increase, and their knowledge will increase about their religion of God and their wisdom will increase, and they will succeed in their afterlife.

These two parties are interchangeable: according to their progress or regress in their purifying or corrupting their hearts and conduct.

>> If believers become wrong-doers, God will misguide them in the same way explained above, so they will apostatize from God's religion and they will lose.

>> While if disbelievers change their hearts and their conduct into better condition, and leave their wrong-doing, God will guide them in the same way explained above, so they will convert to God's religion and they will succeed.

A very good step is that the atheist or disbeliever should give alms in secret to the poor for the sake of God alone, in secret not before anyone, and God will guide him and will be in Paradise.

This is in many ayat the Quran like these 6: 47-49
قُلْ أَرَأَيْتَكُمْ إِنْ أَتَاكُمْ عَذَابُ اللّهِ بَغْتَةً أَوْ جَهْرَةً هَلْ يُهْلَكُ إِلاَّ الْقَوْمُ الظَّالِمُونَ . وَمَا نُرْسِلُ الْمُرْسَلِينَ إِلاَّ مُبَشِّرِينَ وَمُنذِرِينَ فَمَنْ آمَنَ وَأَصْلَحَ فَلاَ خَوْفٌ عَلَيْهِمْ وَلاَ هُمْ يَحْزَنُونَ . وَالَّذِينَ كَذَّبُواْ بِآيَاتِنَا يَمَسُّهُمُ الْعَذَابُ بِمَا كَانُواْ يَفْسُقُونَ

The explanation:
(Say: "Tell me your opinion that if God's punishment comes upon you unexpectedly or openly, will any perish save the people of the wrongdoers?"

We do not send the Envoys [: the messengers] except good tidings to bear, and warners;

>> whoever believes and makes amends [or reforms] – no fear shall be on them, neither shall they sorrow.

>> But those who deny Our signs [or revelations] – the torment shall touch them [in the afterlife] because of their disobedience.)

And like this aya 18: 56

وَمَا نُرْسِلُ الْمُرْسَلِينَ إِلَّا مُبَشِّرِينَ وَمُنذِرِينَ وَيُجَادِلُ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا بِالْبَاطِلِ لِيُدْحِضُوا بِهِ الْحَقَّ وَاتَّخَذُوا آيَاتِي وَمَا أُنذِرُوا هُزُوًا


The explanation:
(We send not messengers but to bear glad tidings and to warn;
but those who disbelieve do only dispute with falsehood to disprove the truth,
and they took – My signs [of revelation] and what they are warned of – as a jest.)


This meaning is mentioned in many other ayat of the Quran like these 2: 6-7

إِنَّ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ سَوَاءٌ عَلَيْهِمْ أَأَنذَرْتَهُمْ أَمْ لَمْ تُنذِرْهُمْ لاَ يُؤْمِنُونَ . خَتَمَ اللّهُ عَلَى قُلُوبِهمْ وَعَلَى سَمْعِهِمْ وَعَلَى أَبْصَارِهِمْ غِشَاوَةٌ وَلَهُمْ عَذَابٌ عظِيمٌ

The explanation:
(Surely, those who disbelieve [or deny]; it is the same to them – whether you [Mohammed] warn them or you warn them not – they believe not.

God has set a seal upon their hearts and on their hearing, and on their sights is a veil, and there awaits them a grievous chastisement.)


And these ayat 36: 6-7

لِتُنذِرَ قَوْمًا مَّا أُنذِرَ آبَاؤُهُمْ فَهُمْ غَافِلُونَ .لَقَدْ حَقَّ الْقَوْلُ عَلَى أَكْثَرِهِمْ فَهُمْ لَا يُؤْمِنُونَ

The explanation:
(That you [Mohammed] may warn a people [the Arab] whose fathers were not warned [by any messenger before you], therefore they are unaware [of the afterlife.]

The word has been deservedly sentenced against most of them [to be punished], therefore they believe not [because they imitate their fathers.])


And in the same soora 36: 10-11

وَسَوَاء عَلَيْهِمْ أَأَنذَرْتَهُمْ أَمْ لَمْ تُنذِرْهُمْ لاَ يُؤْمِنُونَ .إِنَّمَا تُنذِرُ مَنِ اتَّبَعَ الذِّكْرَ وَخَشِيَ الرَّحْمَن بِالْغَيْبِ فَبَشِّرْهُ بِمَغْفِرَةٍ وَأَجْرٍ كَرِيمٍ


The explanation:
(It is the same to them whether you [Mohammed] warn them or you warn them not, they believe not.

You [Mohammed] only warn him who follows the admonition [of the Quran] and fears [God] Most Gracious in secret, so give him the good news of forgiveness and excellent reward [in the afterlife.])

http://www.quran-ayat.com/
 
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In Between Man

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Sep 11, 2008
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You've hit on the essence of postmodernism: all opinions are equally valid...

I disagree with that. Only one opinion is *valid* and it's the one that's correct. You seem to have fallen for the relativist trick that tolerance doesn't involve simply treating those with different ideas respectfully and civilly, it means holding their views(even if incorrect) as valid. Something Christians can't do without renouncing their beliefs. If, for example, I subscribe to the biblical notion that homosexual behavior is sinful, I cannot at the same time affirm that such behavior is not sinful. The post modern secularist doesn't have to confront these questions be he rejects absolute truth and the law of noncontradiction. He just goes on his merry way, moralizing to everyone about tolerance without having to explain the intrinsic contradiction in his views.

The tolerance peddlers are further exposed as frauds when consider that simply will not practice what they preach. They are absolutely unwilling to "tolerate" the Christian premise that Jesus Christ is the way, the truth, and the life. For them to acknowledge this would necessarily refute their concept of tolerance, which holds that all ideas are of equal merit. In their infinite resourcefulness, they carve out an exception to their demand for universal tolerance when it comes to the treatment of Christians.
 

AnnaG

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Jul 5, 2009
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You've hit on the essence of postmodernism: all opinions are equally valid, there are no distinctions to be made among informed opinion, uninformed opinion, and lunatic opinion, everything--politics, religion, economics, ideology, science, philosophy, etc.--is just a cultural narrative that reflects no underlying reality. Seems self-refuting to me, for postmodernism itself must then also be just a cultural narrative with no roots in an underlying reality. That much at least I think is correct.

But we've gone a long way from Jesus' status in the OT... :smile:
lol Well, I thought the topic was pretty shortlived as it was, considering the guy wasn't mentioned in the OT. If one is religious, there is only an implied mention. (I did a little research. :D)
 

Cliffy

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Nov 19, 2008
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The Christianity peddlers are further exposed as frauds when consider that simply will not practice what they preach. They are absolutely unwilling to "tolerate" the non-Christian premise that the bible is a work of fiction. For them to acknowledge this would necessarily refute Jesus' concept of tolerance, which holds that all ideas are of equal merit. In their infinite resourcefulness, they carve out an exception to their demand for religious tolerance when it comes to the treatment of non-Christians.
 

In Between Man

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The devil made you do it? What ever happened to turn the other cheek?:bootyshake:

I don't think so. I have the sole duty of defending Christianity on this forum, as I don't see anyone else doing it. Therefore I can't let that comment stand for Christianity when if obviously doesn't. Just as Dex opposed because it doesn't represent atheism either.
 

Cliffy

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I don't think so. I have the sole duty of defending Christianity on this forum, as I don't see anyone else doing it. Therefore I can't let that comment stand for Christianity when if obviously doesn't. Just as Dex opposed because it doesn't represent atheism either.
You are not the only Christian on here but you definitely have a unique brand - the Starbucks Christian movement. "Let's get wired on Geezuz!!":p
 

In Between Man

The Biblical Position
Sep 11, 2008
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The Christianity peddlers are further exposed as frauds when consider that simply will not practice what they preach. They are absolutely unwilling to "tolerate" the non-Christian premise that the bible is a work of fiction. For them to acknowledge this would necessarily refute Jesus' concept of tolerance, which holds that all ideas are of equal merit. In their infinite resourcefulness, they carve out an exception to their demand for religious tolerance when it comes to the treatment of non-Christians.

But in the true sense of tolerance, i.e. treating others respectfully and civilly, we do(at least in this age). But hold your contradicting view as valid as mine? Never!

Jesus Christ is either the truth or he's not.

Not Jesus Christ is the truth and other ways are the truth. That refutes itself.
 

AnnaG

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Jul 5, 2009
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I don't think so. I have the sole duty of defending Christianity on this forum, as I don't see anyone else doing it. Therefore I can't let that comment stand for Christianity when if obviously doesn't. Just as Dex opposed because it doesn't represent atheism either.
MHz also preaches Christainity.
 

In Between Man

The Biblical Position
Sep 11, 2008
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You are not the only Christian on here but you definitely have a unique brand - the Starbucks Christian movement. "Let's get wired on Geezuz!!":p

Well I certainly don't see them sticking up for their faith! I've seen a couple of sentences from gerryh, one from Colpy. They just don't have the passion for apologetics like I do. Obviously the big guy directed me to this wonderful forum for a reason!;-)
 

Cliffy

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But in the true sense of tolerance, i.e. treating others respectfully and civilly, we do(at least in this age). But hold your contradicting view as valid as mine? Never!

Jesus Christ is either the truth or he's not.

Not Jesus Christ is the truth and other ways are the truth. That refutes itself.

Only in your mind of absolutes. I know that Jesus was just a man and that the bible has been seriously tampered with. Jesus was a great teacher (if he existed) but he was a son of god in the same way that you and I are. I know this to be true because I studied the subject for forty years. But I could be missing some of the facts which would make my conclusions less than perfect. Your blind faith in the bible is just that: Blind!.
There is nothing more dangerous than someone who believes they are absolutely right and everybody else who doesn't believe as he does is wrong. That kind of mentality brought us the Crusades, Witch Hunts and the Inquisition. There will never be peace in the world as long as there are people like you.
 

In Between Man

The Biblical Position
Sep 11, 2008
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There is nothing more dangerous than someone who believes they are absolutely right and everybody else who doesn't believe as he does is wrong.

And how does this not apply to yourself as well? I contradict your views, so why can't you hold them as valid, just as you hold yours?

Why can't you tolerate the "intolerable"?
 

AnnaG

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And how does this not apply to yourself as well? I contradict your views, so why can't you hold them as valid, just as you hold yours?

Why can't you tolerate the "intolerable"?
That's easy to answer; he doesn't follow that particular dogma.
 

Cliffy

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Nov 19, 2008
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And how does this not apply to yourself as well? I contradict your views, so why can't you hold them as valid, just as you hold yours?

Why can't you tolerate the "intolerable"?
I don't have a dogma I'm trying to sell. I'm only trying to present alternative views to the one you say is absolute. I don't really have a belief system. What I know to be true is what has worked in my life but it is always subject to change if something new makes more sense.
I can't tolerate intolerance. So, its an oxymoron. I never said I was perfect.
 

Spade

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Nov 18, 2008
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I recall prior to the Iraq War, GW speaking to a conference of Christian broadcasters. At the end of his speech on why war was necessary, he received a standing ovation. The "Prince of Peace" neatly ignored! Those who rail against family planning are the first to advocate harsher prison sentences and the death penalty! The admonitions "Love thy neighbour" and "Forgive"equally spurned. Fundamentalist Christianity has a lot to learn from that Jewish rabbi!
 

gerryh

Time Out
Nov 21, 2004
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Those who rail against family planning are the first to advocate harsher prison sentences and the death penalty!

Is that a fact.... and who exactley is it that "rails" against family planning?