Is Islam a threat to those that do not practice it

peapod

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Marjane Satrapi was born in iran. She is a excellent writer! she has a new book out more a follow up on her persepolis book, this one is called persepolis 2. It has very good reviews. You can really get a glimpse of what revolution was like in Iran. Here is a review of her book from the new york times...not that, that means anything :D


The first volume of Marjane Satrapi's ''Persepolis'' is a hard act to follow. Subtitled ''The Story of a Childhood,'' it is indeed that, albeit a childhood overshadowed from the age of 9 by Iran's Islamic revolution, and including among much else the deaths of beloved relatives and friends. Like Art Spiegelman's ''Maus,'' it is a ''graphic memoir'' -- a clunky label that certainly beats ''comic book'' -- but unlike ''Maus'' it is executed in an apparently simple, childlike drawing style. That simplicity is, of course, entirely appropriate to the child's viewpoint and has the additional advantages of disarming the reader and making possible the easy absorption of a great deal of complex and harrowing matter. And, as the reader comes to realize, the style isn't so simple after all. The stylized layouts effortlessly evoke centuries of Persian art, and Satrapi registers subtle emotions on the faces of her characters with the greatest economy of means. Here and there -- see for example the bottom panels on Page 93 of the present volume -- she seems to tip her hat to a formative influence, Matisse.

Volume 2 picks up where Volume 1 left off. In 1984, Satrapi's parents, liberals who lived under constant threat from the regime but were determined not to leave their country, sent her to Austria to complete her studies in safety and freedom. When Satrapi, then 14, looked back at her parents to wave goodbye before boarding the plane, she saw her father carrying away her mother, who had fainted. As ''Persepolis 2'' opens, she lies on her bed in a Vienna boardinghouse run by nuns, wondering what her roommate will be like. This may seem undramatic after the riots, raids, bombings and executions in the first volume, but then Satrapi's story is in many ways the chronicle of a normal childhood, experienced by a well-adjusted girl from a loving family, that happens to be buffeted by the upheavals of history. Part of Satrapi's brilliance is her ability to get the contrasting proportions right.

Her adolescence features the usual boy problems, authority problems, social insecurities and worries about appearance. Such issues have more serious consequences, though, because she is in a foreign land without family or protectors, and looked upon with suspicion not just by xenophobes but by people who automatically associate her with the very aspects of her own country she is there to escape. The nuns soon evict her for mouthing off, and she migrates from one temporary shelter to another. At school she hangs out with the marginals: an eccentric, two orphans and a punk enthralled by the fact that she has seen death up close. She endures a string of unworthy boyfriends, capped by one who seems like the real thing -- although he allows her to pay for everything and won't defend her to his racist mother -- until she catches him in bed with another girl. At the same time, her insane landlady wrongly accuses her of theft. She is left adrift, picking food out of trash cans and sleeping furtively in streetcars. After two months of this, in the middle of winter, she collapses, waking up in the hospital. Since she has graduated from high school by this time, she sees no alternative but to return to Iran.

There, she finds that her troubles look trivial -- eight years of the Iran-Iraq war have ravaged her country, left it in her eyes an immense mausoleum in which every third street has been renamed after a ''martyr.'' Meanwhile, her friends have gotten themselves up to look like the heroines of American television shows, but when she confides to them that she has had sexual experiences, they accuse her of being a whore. Feeling trapped, she falls into depression and tries to kill herself, but a large dose of antidepressants only causes her to sleep for three days. So she resolves to take herself in hand. She gains admission to the university to study art, even passing the ideological test, and meets the man she will marry -- even though the match seems less than ideal.

Like many young Iranians, Satrapi proceeds with a life of well-hidden pleasures, close calls, periodic arrests and constant harassment. The end is a given -- the very existence of the two volumes of ''Persepolis'' attests that she will finally reach her limit and go abroad again, this time for good. Satrapi's story is compelling and extremely complex, not simply in its windings and reversals of fortune but in its manifold ironies and acknowledged contradictions. It would have made a stirring document no matter how it was told, but the graphic form, with its cinematic motion and its style as personal as handwriting, endows it with a combination of dynamism and intimacy uniquely suited to a narrative at once intensely subjective and world-historical.

And it is wildly charming. Satrapi's voice is as artfully artless as her graphic style, never giving any indication of effort or calculation but simply communicating, in a way that feels unmediated, like a letter from a friend, in this case a wonderful friend: honest, strong-willed, funny, tender, impulsive, self-aware. It's hard saying goodbye at the end, but the end of the story marks the beginning of her ability to tell it.
 

peapod

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This is an interesting article, it makes you think that religion and politics should not be mixing.


SECULAR NATION

July 6, 2004


Essayist Richard Rodriguez argues that some American politicians and religious leaders have successfully shortened the separation between the political assembly and the pulpit and allowed America to see itself as the Judeo-Christian nation against which Osama bin Laden said he is fighting a religious war.





RICHARD RODRIGUEZ: Even before the attacks of Sept. 11, Osama bin Laden had taunted America, branding us a nation of "crusaders and Jews." Bin Laden's hectoring was rhetorical, intended to incite Muslims to jihad, but he also intended to mock the great experiment of American civilization: How people of different religions, or no religion, can live together within a secular discretion.

( Praying in Arabic )

RICHARD RODRIGUEZ: I will tell you frankly: I am a religious man and as much as anyone, I am moved by, approving of, even envious at the sight of Muslims at prayer, the crowd praying as one in the great public square. That which is communal in religion yearns for public expression.

PRIEST: We ask this through Christ, our lord.

PEOPLE: Amen.

RICHARD RODRIGUEZ: I have known the pleasure of a community of faith. In California, in Sacramento, a sacred name on the state capitol, I attended Catholic schools until I left home for college. The people I knew best were Catholic. It was a small world that nevertheless instilled a sense of the universal. But I have lived my entire life within a democracy and according to the principle of the absolute separation of church from state. I've grown to cherish and to depend upon the secular institutions of America and the protections they offer, the libraries, the courts, the civic assemblies. What Osama bin Laden did was to frame America religiously. Imagine our incredulity. America had always presented itself among other nations as secular. Now, perhaps, it is useful, perhaps even necessary that we try to see ourselves through our adversaries' eyes: A Christian nation supporting a Jewish state occupying a Muslim country. As a nation, we have never fought a religious war. We have fought kings and dictators and political ideologies, and we fought over land. Today, we are challenged by antagonists who pit us in theological opposition to themselves. After Sept. 11, President Bush visited with Muslim clerics. Immediately, the secular impulse, the inclusive impulse, the refutation of bin Laden's taunt: Americans are Muslims, as well. But after Sept. 11, the president began to couch the war against terrorism in theological terms as a battle between "the forces of good" and "the forces of evil." And he spoke of American policy as proximate to the will of "the Almighty."

PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH: Freedom is the Almighty's gift to every man and woman in this world. And as the greatest power on the face of the earth, we have an obligation to help the spread of freedom.

RICHARD RODRIGUEZ: When John Kennedy ran for president, it was necessary for him to reassure an audience of protestant ministers-- and, thus, the nation-- that he would not be controlled by the Vatican.

JOHN F. KENNEDY: I believe in an America where the separation of church and state is absolute. For no Catholic prelate would tell the president, should he be Catholic, how to act. And no Protestant minister would tell his parishioners for whom to vote.

RICHARD RODRIGUEZ: Four decades later, the most dynamic political force in America is the Protestant right, which seeks to lessen the gap between the political assembly and the pulpit. As much as any Muslim cleric, the Reverend Jerry Falwell and the Reverend Pat Robertson are political leaders and religious leaders. And now, one of the most important political alliances in America unites right-wing Protestants and orthodox Jews. For theological reasons, both support the state of Israel. Roman Catholic bishops clearly are galvanized by the efficacy of the protestant right. Some American bishops are prepared to use the sacraments as political tools against Catholic politicians who take public positions that are at variance with church teaching. America is not the country Osama bin Laden imagines, which makes it all the more shocking that some Americans are challenging the premise of a secular state. In the aftermath of Sept. 11, they are describing America in religious terms, ironically, as bin Laden did, rather than the America Thomas Jefferson imagined: The secular nation my grammar school civics teacher, a Catholic nun, taught me to honor and love.

I'm Richard Rodriguez.
 

Chewy

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Jul 14, 2004
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Re: RE: Is Islam a threat to those that do not practice it

moghrabi said:
Chewey,

I agree with you 100%. Wrong is wrong is wrong no matter what religion of culture. The point I am making is that the Americans are doing worse than that but in a different way.
You are referring to Israel? Or other events?
 

moghrabi

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May 25, 2004
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Re: RE: Is Islam a threat to those that do not practice it

Chewy said:
moghrabi said:
Chewey,

I agree with you 100%. Wrong is wrong is wrong no matter what religion of culture. The point I am making is that the Americans are doing worse than that but in a different way.
You are referring to Israel? Or other events?

What is the difference Chewy? The US and Israel are one.
 

Chewy

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Jul 14, 2004
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Re: RE: Is Islam a threat to those that do not practice it

moghrabi said:
What is the difference Chewy? The US and Israel are one.
I'll need you elaborate I know some of the connections some of the allegations as well. IF you can give me some examples that would help me out.
 

Jillyvn

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Sep 15, 2004
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Re: RE: Is Islam a threat to

masalla said:
I knew some would not like to hear what I said, but I stand by it because I don't see any moderate countries of Islam condemning the events of the fundamentalists. One can only assume that these countries tacitly approve or at the very least, are afraid to speak out. If they are peace loving, they need to put that peace on the line and tell the world they are against what 'some' followers, however misguided, are doing throughout the world. Whether some people like it or not, most of the people I know have a similar opinion. Talking about Hitler doesn't dispel the current facts. (I didn't see the Swastika as a sign of the cross either.) Children were shot down running for freedom today by Muslims in Chechnya. I'm sorry if the people following Islam don't like the opinions of some, but stand up for your religeon then and shout it out. The rest of the world is waiting, and hoping.

I thought I might resurrect this thread - I'm coming in a bit late.

One of the key problems in this conflict, and one of the main reasons there is such a surge of anti-Islam/Muslim feelings is the rise of fundamentalism, which is a relatively new development. Anyone interested might want to read "The Battle For God" by Karen Armstrong. I hate to link to the evil one, but Chapters has a really nice excerpt from the book that you might be interested in:

http://www.chapters.indigo.ca/item....talog=Books&N=35&Lang=en&Section=books&zxac=1

As a side note, the media doesn't have an abiding interest in paying attention to peaceful, moderate muslims. The current climate in the US, and thankfully to a lesser extent in Canada, is decidedly anti-Muslim, and the coverage reflects this.

As a faith, the Muslim religion is no more dangerous than Christianity or Judaism. It's the fundamentalists we must fear, and they can only be fought through the education of the populous. Hatred of muslims feeds directly into their own hatred, and it is a vicious cycle that will get us no where.

Jill
 

moghrabi

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Thank you Jill for your input and the link. I agree with you fully on this matter. We must separate the mainstream Muslims from the fundamentalists as they exist in every religion.
 

peapod

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I was listening to two guys talk the other day, They were talking about muslims, one said they are not all bad. The other replied, well maybe thats true, but how do you tell them apart? They all look the same, better to be safe than sorry, don't trust any of them. This is a true conversation I overheard. I have heard this said many times in different ways.

This seems to be nothing new, look at what was done to canadian japanese in world war two. That is one thing that is great about canada. We incourage multi-culturalism, at least many people I know do. If you just have a basic understanding of someone culture, its alot harder to jump to these assumptions.
 

Reverend Blair

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Apr 3, 2004
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RE: Is Islam a threat to

That kind of attitude is a huge problem, Peapod. It also doesn;t make any sense because Muslims come in colours, shapes and sizes.
 

MASTER

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Some of u people seem very naive im sorry to say. Hitler was anti christian. he was into the acults.he hated the Christian faith. he called it weak and the religion of the Jews.second point the crusades came 1000 years after JESUS to liberate the holy land from the Muslim WHO INVADED THE HOLY CITY..3 point.. before you all jump on the cursades that came 1000 years after Jesus. why is noone here aware that Muslims invaded the Middle East. In less then 10 years after mohammeds death they attacked Iraq syria Egypt lebannon. then they went into Europe india persia on and on killing in the million lasted into the 19th century.The Muslims were attacking nations long before the so called crusades.it's really sad to see the lake of education from people of the west about history or religion. you just spew out leftist nonsense sorry to say but the lack of any sense of histroy shows in most of the posts i read here so far.4 mohammed the founder of Islam him self killed waited behind rocks with his early follower's and he would kill as many as he could and steal all there live stock from people he never knew because he said they were none believers and Alla said he could kill them and take all they owned. called the caravans.he had many slaves after killing in his raids,he and his Muslim folllowers took the wives and children of those muderered by him and sold into slavery or just passed out to other Muslims men to do as they pleased with these women and girls even forced sex .more like rape., Whos husbands or brothers or fathers were killed..So before u say Islam means peace .please don't be so PC without learning the full truth..Islam means Submission..Many of Mohammeds more then a dozen wives were slaves captured by him and his gang.. Not so peaceful..Sorry but the truth should be known.there are good Muslims.but those that are good are those who are less religious The more one follows Islam the more he hates and believes in holy War against all none Muslims.Its part of Islam..to make all nations Muslim and ruled by the caliph No sepration of religion and state in ISLAM.. so please dont buy all you hear about peace.dont just read some PC sites but read the pro and con that way u will have a clearer and better understanding..Peace to All.
 

Reverend Blair

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Apr 3, 2004
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RE: Is Islam a threat to

You finished your post with the words, "Peace to all," but the rest of your post seems to be a message of intolerance, paranoia, and purposeful misunderstanding.
 

hollaback

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Sep 23, 2004
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All right, I am coming into this a little late, so sorry if I repeat some stuff already said.
First I am going to address the first question regrading if Islam promotes hatred to those who arent of the same religion...Yes and no. Islam is initailly a peaceful religion, just like Judism and Christianity. Islam, like the other two, has a main goal of worshiping God, and guess what, all three have the same God (Allah is God in English). All three have an Adam and Eve, Moses, and Abraham...just with a few twists added to make it their "own".
I don't think that we are naive to think that Islam is peaceful, because it is, the book promotes love, and actually Muslims promoted living peacefully among the Jews and Christians untill rvialry became a problem. Islam is not about hating those who are not muslims, but they aren't the biggest fans nonetheless.
It is more about who is right, they think that they are right just as much as jews and christians do. This need to be the right religion plays a huge factor in the problems Islam faces today.
In the middle east terrorists needed people to fight against the americans and jews. So how do they go about recruiting these people...they bring it home, they use their faith. They rearrange the bible, the same way many chrisitans and jews have done in the past, and use easy targets (young men and women who are questioning everything) and show them that the book says that those who aren't muslims will kill us all and our families, they give past examples, and BAM you have your Islamic extremists. What better way to clear the conscience than use religion.
Now to address Master
One of your comments
"crusades came 1000 years after JESUS to liberate the holy land from the Muslim WHO INVADED THE HOLY CITY"
kinda made me mad. You talk about "us" having to do research and such, but hey maybe you should too! The crusades were never about freeing the holy city, it was about Muslims taking too much territory and needing to stop them. I am really disappointed with your feeble attempt to make Islam the bad guy. Islam is the newest of the three religions, there have been worse things occuring with the Jews and Christians before this, and we all seem to forget that. Not one of these religion is peacefull if you look at the past of the three.
I will honestly say that I was ignorant, I use to argue that Islam was an awful religion that needed to be abloished, but I read this book called Abraham, and I strongly suggest that all who have made a comment read this. The book talks about all three religions trying to prove that Abraham is their ancestor, and how the three have become such rivalries. The book takes no real side to any one religion. It helped me realize that I was stupid to think that a religion is the problem...people kill people, religion does not!
 

moghrabi

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May 25, 2004
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Re: RE: Is Islam a threat to those that do not practice it

MASTER said:
Some of u people seem very naive im sorry to say. Hitler was anti christian. he was into the acults.he hated the Christian faith. he called it weak and the religion of the Jews.second point the crusades came 1000 years after JESUS to liberate the holy land from the Muslim WHO INVADED THE HOLY CITY..3 point.. before you all jump on the cursades that came 1000 years after Jesus. why is noone here aware that Muslims invaded the Middle East. In less then 10 years after mohammeds death they attacked Iraq syria Egypt lebannon. then they went into Europe india persia on and on killing in the million lasted into the 19th century.The Muslims were attacking nations long before the so called crusades.it's really sad to see the lake of education from people of the west about history or religion. you just spew out leftist nonsense sorry to say but the lack of any sense of histroy shows in most of the posts i read here so far.4 mohammed the founder of Islam him self killed waited behind rocks with his early follower's and he would kill as many as he could and steal all there live stock from people he never knew because he said they were none believers and Alla said he could kill them and take all they owned. called the caravans.he had many slaves after killing in his raids,he and his Muslim folllowers took the wives and children of those muderered by him and sold into slavery or just passed out to other Muslims men to do as they pleased with these women and girls even forced sex .more like rape., Whos husbands or brothers or fathers were killed..So before u say Islam means peace .please don't be so PC without learning the full truth..Islam means Submission..Many of Mohammeds more then a dozen wives were slaves captured by him and his gang.. Not so peaceful..Sorry but the truth should be known.there are good Muslims.but those that are good are those who are less religious The more one follows Islam the more he hates and believes in holy War against all none Muslims.Its part of Islam..to make all nations Muslim and ruled by the caliph No sepration of religion and state in ISLAM.. so please dont buy all you hear about peace.dont just read some PC sites but read the pro and con that way u will have a clearer and better understanding..Peace to All.

I am sorry to say to you that you are the most ignorant, uneducated, paranoid person. My only advice to you is read some books about the things you are going to argue about before making an argument. I think you got your twisted facts from reading too much Archie. Even your writing and spelling tells of a person with no knowledge of what is going on around him.

Just because you are from New York and still feels the pain of 9/11 as we all do, does not justify your hatred of the Muslim religion. Put your feelings aside and get the facts.

What kind of "peace to all" are you spreading if your whole message is full of hatred.
 

MASTER

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Oct 15, 2004
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moghrabi You're name calling doesn't surprise me instead of answering my charges you choose to attack me,..Rick van Opbergen yes i can back up my charge's using noting but Isamic sources both the Quran and the hadith's that are the sayings and doings of mohammed.Some people like to be so PC and claim all equal, mohammed claimed to be a prophet like Jesus and moses..but when we take a look into his life he was a cold blooded murder.Dont blame me the messenger but the man..if i can prove he murdered in an unjust way don't be mad at me,this is the same man that married a child of 6 years old when he was in his 50's.but I will post the Muslims own sources of mohammed action's and murder.then you can decide if you believe he was a good man much less God's last and holy prophet,peace to All
 

moghrabi

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Prove it and I will be happy to listen. We need real sources here and not heresay. I am waiting.

You are really defaming the religion of Islam and its prophet. I think you should prove what you are saying before using this kind of language. You said Mohammad married a 6 year old girl. Where in hell do you get your info from? Also I want a proof that he was a cold blooded murderer. I want a proof of murdering Innocent people.

BTW: I like your signature. Does not reflect anything about you at all.
 

MASTER

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Re: RE: Is Islam a threat to those that do not practice it

moghrabi said:
Prove it and I will be happy to listen. We need real sources here and not heresay. I am waiting.

You are really defaming the religion of Islam and its prophet. I think you should prove what you are saying before using this kind of language. You said Mohammad married a 6 year old girl. Where in hell do you get your info from? Also I want a proof that he was a cold blooded murderer. I want a proof of murdering Innocent people.

BTW: I like your signature. Does not reflect anything about you at all.
I can't defame anyone they can only defame them selfs.Once the truth comes out about there murder slavery.I will get back later on where i got mohammed married a 6 year old child.the hadiths which is Islams second holy books known as the saying and doings of mohammed......Now read what mohammed did and you tell me this is a man of God that u want to follow if u are a good human being .how can anyone follow a man like mohammed.first mohammed claimed in the Quran that he is the perfect example to follow then we shall see if he is a role model and the perfect example for humanity to follow...many keys on my compt dont work right so i will do my best with what i have..Now here mohammeds QURAN about him.....Qur'an 72:23, {. . . And whoever disobeys Allah and His Messenger,
surely his is hell-fire, wherin such dwell forever.}

The Qur'an 3:85, {And whoever seeks other than Islam as religion, it will
not be accepted from him; and in the Hereafter, he will be among the losers.}............Now i put some of mohammeds thievery murder and slavery of men women and children........Qur’an 9:5 “When the sacred forbidden months for fighting are past, fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, torture them, and lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war.”
Ishaq:550 “The Muslims met them with their swords. They cut through many arms and skulls. Only confused cries and groans could be heard over our battle roars and snarling.”
Qur’an 5:37 “The [Christian] disbelievers will long to get out of the Fire, but never will they get out there from; and theirs will be an enduring torture.”
Tabari IX:6 “The chief sheep tender sent out spies to obtain intelligence. But they came back with their joints dislocated. When he asked what had happened, they said, ‘We saw white men on black horses. Before we could resist, we were struck as you see us now.”
Ishaq:595 “The Apostle said, ‘Get him away from me and cut off his tongue.””
Ishaq:312 “Umar said to the Apostle, ‘Let me pull out Suhayl’s two front teeth. That way his tongue will stick out and he will never be able to speak against you again.’”
Ishaq:316 “Following Badr, Muhammad sent a number of raiders with orders to capture some of the Meccans and burn them alive.”
Qur’an 8:12 “Your Lord inspired the angels with the message: ‘I will terrorize the unbelievers. Therefore smite them on their necks and every joint and incapacitate them. Strike off their heads and cut off each of their fingers and toes.”


Tabari VIII:96
“A raiding party led by Zayd set out against Umm in Ramadan. During it, Umm suffered a cruel death. Zyad tied her legs with rope and then tied her between two camels until they split her in two. She was a very old woman. Then they brought Umm’s daughter and Abdallah to the Messenger. Umm’s daughter belonged to Salamah who had captured her. Muhammad asked Salamah for her, and Salamah gave her to him.”



Qur’an 8:1
“They ask you about the benefits of capturing the spoils of war. Tell them: ‘The benefits belong to Allah and to His Messenger.’”
Ishaq:510 “We ask Thee for the booty of this town and its people. Forward in the name of Allah.’ He used to say this of every town he raided.”
Ishaq:327 “Allah said, ‘A prophet must slaughter before collecting captives. A slaughtered enemy is driven from the land. Muhammad, you craved the desires of this world, its goods and the ransom captives would bring. But Allah desires killing them to manifest the religion.’”



Bukhari:V5B59N360
“The total number of Muslim fighters from Mecca who fought at Badr and were given a share of the booty, were 81. When their shares were distributed, their number was 101. But Allah knows it better.”
Ishaq:307 “The ‘Spoils of War’ Surah came down from Allah to His Prophet concerning the distribution of the booty when the Muslims showed their evil nature. Allah took it out of their hands and gave it to the Apostle.”
Tabari VII:65 “Allah’s Messenger came back to Medina, bringing with him the booty which had been taken from the polytheists.... There were forty-four captives in the Messenger of Allah’s possession. There was a similar number of dead.”
Bukhari:V5B59N512 “The captives of Khaybar were divided among the Muslims. Then the Messenger began taking the homes and property that were closest to him.”
Tabari VIII:116/Ishaq:511 “So Muhammad began seizing their herds and their property bit by bit. He conquered home by home. The Messenger took some of its people captive, including Safiyah and her two cousins. The Prophet chose Safiyah for himself.”
Ishaq:511 “When Dihyah protested, wanting to keep Safiyah for himself, the Apostle traded for Safiyah by giving Dihyah her two cousins. The women of Khaybar were distributed among the Muslims.”
Tabari VIII:130 “The Prophet conquered Khaybar by force after fighting. Khaybar was something that Allah gave as booty to His Messenger. He took one-fifth of it and divided the remainder among the Muslims.”
Bukhari V4B52N46 “I heard Allah’s Apostle saying, ‘Allah guarantees that He will admit the Muslim fighter into Paradise if he is killed, otherwise He will return him to his home safely with rewards and booty.’”
Tabari VIII:117 “The Banu Sahm of Aslam [newly recruited Muslim militants] came to the Messenger and complained, ‘Muhammad, we have been hurt by drought and possess nothing.’ Although they had fought for the Prophet they found he had nothing [he was willing] to give them. The Apostle said, ‘O Allah, You know their condition—I have no strength and nothing [I want] to give them [from the booty I have stolen]. So conquer for them the wealthiest of the Khaybar homes, the ones with the most food and fat meat.’”


Bukhari:V5B59N537 “Allah’s Apostle divided the war booty with the ratio of two shares for the horse and one-share for the foot soldier.”

Bukhari:V5B59N541 “When we conquered, we gained neither gold nor silver as booty, but we gained cows, camels, goods and gardens.”
Tabari VIII:12 “When cities were conquered Muslims used to say, ‘Conquer for yourselves whatever seems good to you because all treasures were given to Muhammad.’”
Qur’an 48:19 “He rewarded them with abundant spoils that they will capture. Allah has promised you much booty that you shall take, and He has made this easy for you.”


Ishaq:592
“The Apostle held a large number of captives. There were 6,000 women and children prisoners. He had captured so many sheep and camels they could not be counted.”
Tabari IX:31/Ishaq:594 “‘Muhammad, divide the spoil and booty of camels and cattle among us.’ They forced the Prophet up against a tree, and his robe was torn from him. Muhammad cried, ‘Give me back my robe.



Bukhari:V9B84N59
“Allah’s Apostle said, ‘I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: “None has the right to be worshipped but Allah.” Whoever says this will save his property and his life from me.’”

(What we can see from reading the Quran and the hadith's is Mohammed willing to murder anyone and anything and steal everything from those who were not Muslim)And take there wives and children as slaves to never see there familys again and to be sold into slavery and used for sex or RAPE...now this is all from Islam history about there prophet in his own word's and action's and this was just a small part of what he did to other human being's in the name of his ALLAH as his so called PROPHET.So we can argue all we like about the Quran .Mohammed the founder of ISLAM was a brutal human being used GOD'S name in the worst way possible to murder steal inslave there wives children...so Islam means peace!! not to me.

Peace to All..
 

Rick van Opbergen

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MASTER I typed in on google.com quran 3:85. According to an Islamic website this is the passage: "Say, `We believe in Allah and that which has been revealed to us, and that which was revealed to Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the tribes, and in that which was given to Moses and Jesus and other Prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them and to HIM we submit."

For Qur'an 72:23, there seem to be three different translations: 1)"Unless I proclaim what I receive from Allah and His Messages: for any that disobey Allah and His Messenger,- for them is Hell: they shall dwell therein for ever." 2)"(Mine is) but conveyance (of the Truth) from Allah, and His messages; and whoso disobeyeth Allah and His messenger, lo! his is fire of hell, wherein such dwell for ever." 3)"(It is) only a delivering (of communications) from Allah and His messages; and whoever disobeys Allah and His Messenger surely he shall have the fire of hell to abide therein for a long time."

"When the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer [become believers] and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them" (Qu'ran 9:5)

There are three translations for Qu'ran 5:37: 1)"Their wish will be to get out of the Fire, but never will they get out therefrom: their penalty will be one that endures." 2) "They will wish to come forth from the Fire, but they will not come forth from it. Theirs will be a lasting doom." 3) "They would desire to go forth from the fire, and they shall not go forth from it, and they shall have a lasting punishment."

It's not that I don't believe you, but I just wanted to know sure. Now not everything is the same it seems. I will "examine" the other Qu'ran pieces later OK?
 

Just the Facts

House Member
Oct 15, 2004
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Re: RE: Is Islam a threat to those that do not practice it

Rick van Opbergen said:
One question MASTER: can you back your claim? As in: objective sources who claim this?

Looks like Master doesn't need objective sources, Islamic ones seem to do the job. :?
 

MASTER

New Member
Oct 15, 2004
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Rick van Opbergen thank you,The Quran was more milder when mohammed first began to preach in mecca when he had few followers. only after he left mecca and went to medina than people began to follow him his mild verses begin to get meanier and and more out right violent against none beleivers.those who study the Quran can clearly see that... Peace