I'm conflicted about the Bible. Will you discuss it with me?

[TenPenny]

Do you really think the 1% think any of the 995 have a 'meaningful life'? (other than being bred to be servants to the 1%)
A 'meaningful life' should mean being able to have a dream and then see it fulfilled. My father had asperations of being a veterinarian, due to things outside his control it never happened. Do you really think he acquainted to walking behind a plow and having kids compared to being a vet and having kids, and still think life was a meaningful experience?
How many people are 'poor' and see their life as being meaningful, seeing their kids grow up in poverty certainly isn't going to ring any bells.

Speaks volumes of what you think of 'meaningful'.

No wonder some people need the crutch of religion, they don't know how to make their own lives meaningful, they need to rely on others to validate it somehow.

 

[MHz]

Speaks volumes of what you think of 'meaningful'.

No wonder some people need the crutch of religion, they don't know how to make their own lives meaningful, they need to rely on others to validate it somehow.

It's more than looking after a pet and it's more than making a child that defines 'meaningful'.

Religion isn't a crutch for me, I spend time on the thread because I find it an interesting topic if it doesn't always boil down to anybody religious is 'less' than somebody who has decided to ditch religion. My life had meaning before I even took up reading the Bible in '88, that doesn't mean I wouldn't have liked some things to be different. If I had a choice I would have kept the family on the farm and changed to a type of farming that didn't require harming the soil, that is just for myself as everything I learned in those few years was a total waste of ****ing time for all the good it did me when we got to town. Much like arguing with all the Atheists around here (almost) a total waste of ****ing time.

 

[lone wolf]

Funny.... I find the same in neuvo Christians

 

[TenPenny]

So god gives life 'meaning', which, apparently means being in a history book, no matter how evil you are? Is that what you're saying now? And being a farmer is a meaningless life?

 

[Spade]

Do Hell's Angels go to heaven?
Should the LA Angels go to hell?
Are the Calgary Flames the devil's handiwork?

Is an NHL goon leading a meaningless life?

 

[TenPenny]

Do Hell's Angels go to heaven?
Should the LA Angels go to hell?
Are the Calgary Flames the devil's handiwork?

Is an NHL goon leading a meaningless life?

Since I don't believe in heaven, hell, or the devil, the only one I can answer is the last, and the answer to that would be 'It depends on what kind of life he is leading'.

 

[Spade]

I was hoping for a more definitive answer.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

My father had aspirations of being a veterinarian, due to things outside his control it never happened. Do you really think he acquainted to walking behind a plow and having kids compared to being a vet and having kids, and still think life was a meaningful experience?

You do realize, don't you, that you're essentially arguing that your father's life was meaningless?

 

[TenPenny]

You do realize, don't you, that you're essentially arguing that your father's life was meaningless?

Didn't produce much in the way of offspring.

 

[MHz]

You do realize, don't you, that you're essentially arguing that your father's life was meaningless?

What I am saying is you can't even define what a 'meaningful life' means, If being a vet would have made him happier than labor on his own farm then being a vet would have made his life 'more meaningful' just to himself. You get to decide if your life is meaningful, you don't get to determine if other people's lives have been meaningful based on your standard. That about as conceited as anything I've ever heard.

 

[TenPenny]

What I am saying is you can't even define what a 'meaningful life' means, If being a vet would have made him happier than labor on his own farm then being a vet would have made his life 'more meaningful' just to himself. You get to decide if your life is meaningful, you don't get to determine if other people's lives have been meaningful based on your standard. That about as conceited as anything I've ever heard.

Then I guess the idea that 'without God, life has no meaning' is a pretty silly concept.

 

[MHz]

So god gives life 'meaning', which, apparently means being in a history book, no matter how evil you are? Is that what you're saying now? And being a farmer is a meaningless life?

There are lots of pricks in the history books, I was thinking more of people like JFK. Put a doctor behind a plow and ask him how 'meaningful life'?

Then I guess the idea that 'without God, life has no meaning' is a pretty silly concept.

I never posted the concept that 'without God, life has no meaning' , what I posted pointed to with God your life is eternal and therefore a longer life should be able to bring you more rewards, like what station you take in that new place. Like I said to Dex, if you are there and you don't like it, sin. That will change things.too bad the door you go through at that time is only a one way deal so if regret is the feeling you want to feel most then get yourself into the lake.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

What I am saying is you can't even define what a 'meaningful life' means, ... You get to decide if your life is meaningful, you don't get to determine if other people's lives have been meaningful based on your standard. That about as conceited as anything I've ever heard.

You don't seem to understand a word anybody's posting. I've offered no judgment on whether or not anyone's life is meaningful, that's just another of your straw man arguments. I said quite plainly that it's a personal matter for each of us, exactly as you just did, but you're the one who's suggested 99% of lives are meaningless, including your father's. I can define perfectly satisfactorily what a meaningful life means to me, I've done so for myself and taken what steps I can to make sure I have one, and by and large been successful at that. But because it's a personal matter and I doubt you'd understand the values that support it, I see no reason to share it with you.

 

[L Gilbert]

I'm influenced by other verses that show God has a preference for white in times of 'sacred business' the color of the day that sent the men to a place that puts them before the GWT in the first place was red. The Angels there are in white, the perfected men arre in white, the Holy Spirit is likened to a white horse in a vision so the odds are more than zero that the term white is accurate. The question I have is for those who see that place and time as being when the men resurrected at that time are then sent onto further punishment in the lake. Righteousness is compared to white, the men that arrive there that day get pardons because they finished the punishment that came with their crimes and God is giving them a full pardon, a white piece of paper so to speak.

Oh.

To put it into perspective science today would have to start exploring the theory of multi-verses being the source of the material for our big bang. When stars explode they do not reform, instead the remnants go off in a multitude of directions and eventually combine with the remnants of many stars exploding and that is how a new star gets it's material.

Not necessarily. I have no doubt that sometimes this happens because nebulae are bit of space debris coagulating, but the indications are that there is more than one way for things to come into existence. I guess you didn't read the link I provided.

Understandable, so far it hasn't fit, what if it starts to fit better and better as 'new proof' becomes available? (something like only a computer could discover because of the odds or just the bulk of info that would have to be gone through)

If it fits, it fits. There's still no point in relying on "ifs" as if they are facts, though.

That's fine, if science has it right then does the current understanding of the bible have to be adjusted or is the 'wrong version' locked into stone and the book is condemned? If the creation days had to start with 4,000 as a base number and then each day being that number multiplied by 1,000 before the best match between science and the text of the bible being closest to matching. If that information was part of the signs that come with the very end then it would have to be 'disguised' in the beginning. Seeing the days advance like that is only possible for a time when powers of 10 are common knowledge and the solution to dealing with large numbers.

If science gets things right, it doesn't matter what is done with the Bible. Accuracy is accuracy regardless of where it comes from.

If you have fallen angels as beings that were life-size to the statues (biggest) the building the ancient monuments could have been easily done. One angel foe 20 years or 20 angels for 1 year, take your pick. They were put into a pit during the flood (immortals would not die in a flood of water that laster 10 years) That event took the 10,000 saints that Moses and Enoch (in Jude) reference.

If? More ifs? Ifs are the spawners of fantasy. One can if anything imaginable. So?

Lucky us as none of the fallen angels were very fond of mortals. The last 3 1/2 years is supposed to see a return to those days. Satan is a fallen angel, the Beast from the Pit is a fallen angel that was active before the flood and the False Prophet is almos angelic (most likely as he is sent to the lake) 4 buried angels are said to manifest into 200,000 horsemen. In about 3 years they kill 1/3 of mankind, put them pulling blocks (no food, no water, no rest) how fast could the trip from the quarry be brought down to? Using a model of the biggest statues how fast could they lift the blocks into place to assemble the pyramids? That is who the legends sp4eak of, memories fro after the flood and the grandkids were off starting new nations and such. Noah's kids would have been part of the community of giants, their wives would have been classified as giants so the stories after the flood would have been from their side of the family. Goliath and the races of giants that were exterminated after the flood was when that line of beings ended. (they should have had the 'best memories' of life before the flood)

Yeah, makes for an entertaining faerie tale like all the other stories of gods and golems.

For this exchange how about we go with things the bible says that raise question, just like you already did, no prophecy involved I read ahead.

huh?

Perhaps that is why heaven is mentioned first, ie '..heaven and (then) the earth' Science dates it as about 13.B and 4.5B. Before the earth had sunlight and rotation it could not have existed by the requirement for day 1 to end experiencing light/dark while being on it's surface. Say 4B years ago, it would take 3.6B years before the earth cooled enough that water could be found in liquid and vapor form. That would have been the end of day 2 meaning day 2 was from 4B to 400M years ago, day/night until water vapor and liquid water on some part of the earth. (highest elevations would have been the coldest and in a cooling world that is where liquid would first form today) It would tale another 360 M years for those mountain streams to cool the crust enough that the obean basins could fill with water. I don't have the energy input required to convert deep space temp of 'ice' to be liquid as we know it but the carbon footprint must be enormous even over a long period of time.
Before the sun was shining (end of day 1 ) the solar system was forming and even the sun was without form as far as producing light was concerned. Even the the earth did not exist until the light part was fulfilled and it had rotation of some sort. For the heaven to form God had His Spirit 'get the material' that would make the universe 'real', there is no better way I can explain it.
The sun was there, what it gives off is named, light, and it put the reader at a location, a place in heaven that will be called the earth and something new exists, sunrise and sunset on earth
That marks the dividing line between heaven an earth, We and our birds are earthly creatures because we have to touch ground sometime, Land and atmosphere and surface of water and atmosphere are the boundary, when birds are flying they are considered to be 'fowls of heaven', angels would appear that way but would never need to land. Water is used, stage two of life on earth was to have water in two forms vapor and liquid (no ice is possible on a molten world)
A world that had been molten rock acquired a 'skin' to the extent that pools (dew) of water could be found. Timeframe foe day 2 is 4B - 400M years, day 3 would be 400M -40M years ago day 4 is the time thing and day 5 is gone before the seas are said to be full
(day 4 = 40M - 4M) day 5 = 4M - 400,000 years ago)
Moss would be the first life to grow on a new volcanic island miles from nowhere, The first moisture would be from condensation and it would have to form dew/triclke/stream/river/ before ocean could be used. If several days are allowed before life is mentioned in relation to the 'seas' then can it be 'assumed that it was an 'ongoing operation all the time'? If moss could exist when dew was present then by the time trees were reproducing ponds and lakes would have existed and they would eventually grow into the oceans we know today.
Light was there by the end of day 1 , sunlight and rotation of the earth, end of day 2 was water in two forms, end of day 3 was trees existing (using todays requirement for a forest atmosphere), day 4 sat the orbit of the earth around the sum become the same as it was on the end of day4, 4M years ago.
They were given names, all heavenly bodies existed as part of the words 'created heaven' from Ge:1:1, 'created earth' has an 'and then' before it, the heavens haven't changed much in 4B years.
The weight of the oceans was the final weight added to planet earth so that the orbit it had when that happened is the same we have today. The heavenly bodies were given names and a purpose in our lives.
Microbes are the least important (lifeform) to the story of the bible, other starts are more important to the universe but they are mentioned almost like an afterthought. That holds true for whales as far as ocean life goes and the same as the creepy crawly things as far as life on dry earth is concerned.
That is a reference to them being 'modeled' after these creatures.
Re:4:7:
And the first beast was like a lion,
and the second beast like a calf,
and the third beast had a face as a man,
and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle.
If I felt that way I would be wasting my time in looking for a blend between science and the Bible, not that I spend more time than threads like this take up.

Like I said, the story is a bunch of hooey unless one believes in magic and a whole pile of ifs and maybes. It's tales of imagination; not realistic. Whether you feel that way or not is irrelevant and so is how you rationalize, assume things, and take liberties with what words mean.

It still works out that the waters existed there be haeven was created so it points to something past what we know as the universe. The 3rd heaven would be so far past it that we (the universe) would recede in size till we were no longer visible. The next step up from the creation of th earth would be the creation of the heaven and that would be at 40B years ago, 15B since the big bang and 25B to gather the 'water for the big bang.' That's not even a theory yet lol

I can make square pegs fit in round holes, too. So?

We can't travel back to the time Ge:6 covers but reality is the theme rather than it being myths is promoted as being literal, as fantastic as it sounds. Mankind would have trouble settling the wotld in 1500 years, fallen angels should be able to do it in 15 years

I think the theme is that this is fantasy being fit to reality and it isn't working.

The wizard stuff does have parameter such as a start and stop time, who is affected is another parameter in the verses below ti woul be the ones being taken that are cursed ratrher than the ones left.

M't:24:40:
Then shall two be in the field;
the one shall be taken,
and the other left.
M't:24:41:
Two women shall be grinding at the mill;
the one shall be taken, and the other left.

M't:13:41:
The Son of man shall send forth his angels,
and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend,
and them which do iniquity;

M't:24:28:
For wheresoever the carcase is,
there will the eagles be gathered together.

An indefinite number of undefined parameters is meaningless.

Be sure to 'scope' it out before the end. Putting the 4 time-lines in overlap means it takes 1/4 of the time to understand the impact of that.

It was a rhetorical comment.

Not everything is supposed to be fixed before the deadline for getting it fixed. Perhaps the delay is the tree of life is nor ready ot te number destined to be alive for the 1,000 years hasn't reached the right number yet. That may seem trivial but those same people are alive for the full 1,000 years and then they live inside New Jerusalem for eternity as priests in the new earth

And perhaps the god doesn't exist. Perhaps this. Perhaps that.

If everything that had life here gets it restored in the new earth then the city has the right number and the longer it takes than more people there will be to start off the 'garden building for the flesh that the living water will bring back from God's memory.
Lu:12:6:
Are not five sparrows sold for two farthings,
and not one of them is forgotten before God?

uhuh Like I said, for a god that's supposed to know everything and see everything, this god sure is a screwup.

No, it means if in book 60 He says the most important date will be kept a secret and then let it the date loose in book 62 would not be possible.

If you say so.

Humans are the intended reader, what form should it take?

One of its own choosing.

The Bible defines it, accepting that is a different matter but it does show the difference between reality and mysticism.
Isa:53:9:
And he made his grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death;
because he had done no violence,
neither was any deceit in his mouth.
Isa:53:10:
Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him;
he hath put him to grief:
when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin,
he shall see his seed,
he shall prolong his days,
and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

Before you judge Him as being cruel that bruise is the halfway point to the salvation of mankind.

Yeah, using strange euphemisms sure makes things clear. ( a little sarcasm there).

If it explains that by the end og the book what matter does it make that it isn't in the order you would find easiest. The more difficult it is the odd increase that it is divine if it can (be made to) make sense.

No, the more obscure and vbague it is, the more likely it's fantasy.

Does science come to the conclusion easily, to take advice on the Bible you would have to be chatting to an Apostle, I forget the verse that states that.

However science comes to conclusions is pretty clear whether the path to the conclusion is tough or easy. It accumulates data and fact, a hypothesis is formed, everything is verified, tested, and then conclusion is drawn.

Still, a few dedicated men and a book and 2,000 years should get something better than 3500 sects when you consider the money poured into 'it' during that time.

You'd think.

Like increasing it's pairs of genes count.

huh?

I would hope that applies to everybody, I'm sure God doesn't stay awake nights , ....

I don't know if it applies to everyone. But it doesn't keep me awake.

In this case it would be the single text or one of the 3500 versions, be faster to start with the one text and go from there

Still leaves people believing in whatever they want even if it is fantasy.

 

[MHz]

But because it's a personal matter and I doubt you'd understand the values that support it, I see no reason to share it with you.

And for that I thank God.

You don't seem to understand a word anybody's posting. I've offered no judgment on whether or not anyone's life is meaningful, that's just another of your straw man arguments. I said quite plainly that it's a personal matter for each of us, exactly as you just did,

Yeah I do, I'm not sure their 'thinking' covers what 'meaningful means', and if you think the 1% don't all have the 'vision' that will verify they are all living 'meaningful lives' and (in their view) the rest of the world doesn't matter.

but you're the one who's suggested 99% of lives are meaningless, including your father's. I can define perfectly satisfactorily what a meaningful life means to me, I've done so for myself and taken what steps I can to make sure I have one, and by and large been successful at that.

I said my Dad's life could have been more meaningful to him if the one goal would have been reached, had his father not been a homesteader and war coming along and money for school was not there then with a big ****ing 'YES' I can say his life would have been more meaningful.

What are you some ****head who goes around preaching 'be happy with what you've got' even if it's peanuts and everybody else is having steak.

 

[Cliffy]

To me a meaningful life is one that is fulfilling. We are raised to be subservient to the 1%. We are given the rules to the game, we are educated to be cogs in the wheel and we are fed just enough to keep us going back to the wheel without usurping the ruling class. We are subjected daily to the fear of stepping out of line by both religion and politics. We are born into a lie of megalithic proportions.

But that is not who we are or what we are. What the ruling class does not want us to know is the truth, they don't want you climbing out of the box they have put us in. Because the truth is, we are far more powerful than they are. They derive their power from subjecting others to their oppressive rule, by keeping us subservient. But, if you find out the truth, you will no longer be ruled by fear and they will lose their control and power.

Toronto Riot Police and Mounted Unit Swarm G20 Protesters and Bystanders - YouTube

The truth will set you free.

 

[L Gilbert]

If you were conceived you will be alive in the new earth.

As far as I can tell, all human beings are conceived. So if everyone is going to be alive in the new earth, then there's no point in death just to become alive again. Might as well skip a step.

You wanted a definition, life in the Bible isn't limited to how long we can draw breath. That doesn't mean the few years we have are meaningless, it just means the time is very short.

Short or long is pretty irrelevant. Time is not what matters. Quality of life is vastly more important.

 

[JLM]

What I am saying is you can't even define what a 'meaningful life' means, If being a vet would have made him happier than labor on his own farm then being a vet would have made his life 'more meaningful' just to himself. You get to decide if your life is meaningful, you don't get to determine if other people's lives have been meaningful based on your standard. That about as conceited as anything I've ever heard.

Congratulations - in your many thousands of posts you have now finally posted one with a scintilla of sense. Is "meaningful" the right word? - "mutually beneficial" may be better. Stalin's life was meaningful, but still a despised bastard! :lol:

 

[L Gilbert]

If you are there for awhile and you find it boring you can always sin and that will get you to the fiery lake,. do you see that as being a solution to your boredom problem.

Aren't hell and boredom the same thing?

 

[MHz]

As far as I can tell, all human beings are conceived. So if everyone is going to be alive in the new earth, then there's no point in death just to become alive again. Might as well skip a step.

What if the tree of life isn't producing fruit yet. People would be in the same condition as this verse below suggests, would you want to live for 100's or 1,000's of years without anyone being able to touch you?

Joh:20:17:
Jesus saith unto her,
Touch me not;
for I am not yet ascended to my Father:
but go to my brethren,
and say unto them,
I ascend unto my Father,
and your Father;
and to my God,
and your God.