No warning necessary for me as I am not Christian so therefore whatever you believe will not come up against my belief structure. So fire away... what do you thinkÉ
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"Identify the Beast"
- Thread starter look3467
- Start date
It's not clear to me whether you mean you found a book that explains the end times satisfactorily, or a set of ideas in a variety of places that do so. If the former, I'd like to know the title, but more to the point, how do you know it's the truth? There are, as you say, hundreds of books on the subject, they're not consistent with each other beyond the claim that there will be end times and we seem to be either heading for them very soon or we're in them now. There's no good evidence that'd enable a thoughtful person to choose among all the competing arguments or even assent to the basic claim.
The same claim and arguments have been advanced repeatedly since shortly after the Crucifixion. St.Paul himself makes the claim several times in his epistles and clearly expected the Second Advent pretty much any minute, which has produced a lot of elaborate circumlocutions arguing that he didn't really mean what he appeared to say. Jesus also made the claim. He quite clearly stated that he would return within the lifetimes of the people listening to him, a claim that gave rise to the extra-Biblical legend of the Wandering Jew. It's probably not hundreds of books either, I'd guess at least thousands of writers have made the claim over the last 2000 years, and there are certainly millions of people who'd make the claim right now, though most of them don't write books about it. There were millions of them in 14th century Europe too, which was a pretty calamitous time for European Christianity.
Nobody's been right so far, and I don't believe you are either, even without knowing specifically what your claim is yet. The Bible is literature, as I said recently in some other thread, undeniably very great, powerful and influential literature that contains many of humanity's archetypal stories and lessons, but literature is all it is. It's not history, not science, it's mostly not literally true, and it doesn't predict the future.
Trust me Vereya, as a Christian, I was inwardly terrified of the end times and wanted to know exactly what was really the best or the closest concept of the end times was.
You know that the mark of the beast they say not to take it or else we will burn in hell forever?
Well, I mean, technology as it is advancing, that possibility is a sure shot in the arm of in the head.
But that is not so much the problem with Christians. I believe that the mark of the beast is not that at all.
So, unless we have a better understanding of it, we will fear regardless of how strong we think we might be.
You understand that what we don't understand we tend to fear?
But once we think we have and understanding, we cease to fear.
Peace>>>AJ
Yes, and that book is the bible, but wait, before you make your next thought, and that is that the information found in the bible has been misrepresented by various religious groups to a degree which clouds the simple messages that should be understood correctly.
I believe, based on my observations of all the various myths and beliefs in the world, that the message of God is very simple rather than very complicated.
It much like the tax laws, simple at first and then we added thousands of additions to where it can be a nightmare at tax time.
Well, based on all that I've learned growing up about God, religion and life's experiences, I have made it a point to learn more than what was available through normal channels.
I came across a set of books titled, Man, Myths and Magic, I believe it was, and there were a volume of 22 books.
I cautiously ventured into them as I feared I might be threading in some deep unchristian stuff, but kept studying the information found in them.
What these books have in them is an objective view of all the religious and non religious beliefs beliefs one could fine.
Meaning, I got exhausted because there was so many variances to what I believed that I said to myself, "surely there must be some common ground within all of them".
To make a long story short, the common ground was in one word........Love.
Divisions are great, but because of the lack of love one for another, we battle as if we had the right only to proclaim all truth.
So, it is more of a concept based on a different view of what the bible says, but what I feel, in tune more with it's simple message.
Your absolutely right. That makes my reasoning much stronger.
Take for example, I was born in America and had a Christian up bringing. Now, what if I was born in Iraq, and had a Muslim belief up bringing, what choice would I have of be born into either place?
What if I was born to a primitive African tribe so out of touch with modern society, that God or even Jesus would be to them but a word and nothing else?
One has to wonder about what kind of a god would divide the people so, give them different beliefs and then for some to say that if they don't believe in Jesus they will be forever burning in hell.
Surely I said, the answer lies no where but in the bible.
After reading and studying all the different religions, I was brought right back to the bible with the word love impressed into my mind.
The answer is that God loves all mankind and has provided the means by which we could all be different and still not be lost forever as in ever even existing.
But out of all the differences, out of all the confusion as to who is right and who is wrong, love should be born.
Can you understand why I have no problems now with anybody who wishes to maintain their own beliefs contrary to mind, and have respect for them?
As long as they exercises a love in tolerance to wards others, they are doing the right thing.
I have to agree with you there too, for I may not be right either.
But, the best that I can understand to say is that now I can see a clearer picture of the whole bible, and humanities relationship with the God of the bible.
It is "as if" I had the power to forgive everybody regardless of who they are and believe and love them for their soul.
Peace>>>AJ
Look3467,
I admire your undertaking, really I do however.I do have some thoughts on the issue you present. You admit to the problem of geographic separation and language barriers. It always seemed to me, that if indeed there is a god, this god would not convey his message to one group of people only. The bible does allude to the separating of tribes and the different languages so that we may not conspire against god. But then why would the Christian God, separate the tribes of humans, speak to us in different tongues, and give us all such differing views, differing laws, and differing messages. This creates the tension between religions, even mandated by god in many instances.
How can you be certain that the Christian word of God is more valid than the word God revealed to the Muslims? Further still, how can the Abrahamic religions be considered more worthy than the beliefs of native peoples, who in some areas to this day live very much as they did thousands of years ago, without the contamination of other cultures?
I admire your undertaking, really I do however.I do have some thoughts on the issue you present. You admit to the problem of geographic separation and language barriers. It always seemed to me, that if indeed there is a god, this god would not convey his message to one group of people only. The bible does allude to the separating of tribes and the different languages so that we may not conspire against god. But then why would the Christian God, separate the tribes of humans, speak to us in different tongues, and give us all such differing views, differing laws, and differing messages. This creates the tension between religions, even mandated by god in many instances.
How can you be certain that the Christian word of God is more valid than the word God revealed to the Muslims? Further still, how can the Abrahamic religions be considered more worthy than the beliefs of native peoples, who in some areas to this day live very much as they did thousands of years ago, without the contamination of other cultures?
Those are all excellent questions that I had in my search for what I deemed truth.
My reasoning takes into consideration all those points of yours and ties to make of it some sort of sense.
Now, the bible gives me that direction in that it explains to me a story of what God did, how He did it, and why He did it.
Up until Abraham, there was no word from the Jewish God (I say Jewish God because thats whom He chose to reveal Himself to to the world) to mankind until Abraham a Gentile was led by the spirit of God to do what he did.
Now, breaking away at this point from this story, lets see what the rest of the world was doing.
The rest of the world, according to the bible, says that they were a law unto themselves, meaning that whatever they thought a god was, was to them all they knew.
So gods were in abundance as like you said, the dispersion of languages and races created for each its own religious beliefs.
They all died just the same as the ones God had chosen to reveal Himself through, so for that matter, law or no law (Ten Commandments) all came under the same sentence, death.
Now back to Abraham's story. A promise was given to Abraham that of his seed, God would multiply peoples as the sand of the sea is of every nation, and or as the number of stars.
Then down the line from Abraham, God chooses a race, Jewish, to give them the burden of bearing this child of whose kingdom the promise to Abraham was about.
Keep in mind that the rest of the world besides the Jewish people are "lost"to the knowledge of the real God.
Therefore, the burden for the Jewish people is a great one, to live a life contrary to that of the rest of the world, therefore becoming as an outcast amongst the rest.
Here is where God the real God, in my opinion, comes and rescues His own creation by paying the price for our receiving knowledge which placed us out or separated us from the relationship with the Spirit God due to the creation of the flesh, which is termed death to the body as well as the soul.
God, then, in Jesus, comes with the power of God, fulfills all the requirements for reconciliation of mankind back to the Father the creator.
In so doing, God must reject the chosen (Jewish nation) and be rejected (Jesus) so that as high priests, the offering authority, would offer Jesus up as a ransom for the world.
Jesus then gives His life for the world, which makes of everybody, equal in the eyes of God,takes away the death penalty (spiritual death only) and frees us up to practice and worship anyway we please.
Jesus left only two stipulations as commandments, love God and neighbor.
Now, for those privileged to be in the know, have the burden to practice those two commandments.
And for those that are not, the only thing required of them is to love their neighbor, and if not, for either side, there are consequences to pay.
So, now we come down to this point in time, where there are unbelievers in the Jewish God, which was their god in the beginning, but now has become our God if we so desire.
If we reject the Jewish God as our God too, then we are still covered by the Blood of Jesus, as though we believed in Him as Savior of our souls.
What that means is that for unbelievers, if they practice living right, treating thy neighbor with compassion, help the needed and be an upright citizen, then, I believe that is acceptable by God.
But is they don't live right, then accountability for misdeeds is the same for both believers and unbelievers alike.
Theres allot of backup scriptures to collaborate what I said, if we don't listen to established religious beliefs, dogmas and or practices.
All those are good for a start, but one must desire to mature spiritually, and can only do it by questioning ones own beliefs to try to come to a satisfactory, comfort level by which our own minds will be at peace in.
Perhaps, I didn't answer your question completely, but that is my view of things, and really, don't expect anyone to believe what I say.
But at least, perhaps there are some on the borderline of believing or not, that might find their comfort level by my sharing of my views.
Peace>>>AJ
Well AJ, it's been over 24 hours since anyone commented here, which usually means everybody who's interested in the subject has said what they wanted to say about it, so perhaps it's time to ask you to identify the Beast. Given the way you've repeatedly identified love as the answer, so to speak (an answer I'm generally inclined to agree with actually, subject to careful discussion about what it means in the details), I have a feeling you're going to identify the Beast in a similar fashion. Not as a person or institution, as others generally do, but as the idea most antithetical to love, which personally I think is something like indifference or apathy, the refusal to engage in life, not hate.
I will await your identification with interest.
I will await your identification with interest.
Love is the key component which relates to what is described as the beast.
ISA 63:14 As a beast goeth down into the valley, the Spirit of the LORD caused him to rest: so didst thou lead thy people, to make thyself a glorious name.
Jesus is the beast; and God made of Him a great name.
And Jesus is also Babylon the great!
Rev 17:1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great ***** that sitteth upon many waters:
The judgment of the great *****, lover of the all mankind, sitteth upon the waters (Peoples) and is judged to include all sins committed since the start of creation.
Hence: the number 7, pertaining to and complete with nothing left out, all 7 days of the creation story. (As from the begining, first man, being a caveman and evolving educationaly and physically to what he is today.
Jesus was judged as a great *****, because to the Jews, He went outside their boundaries (To love the other ship not of that fold)and as a beast, because the lamb was the animal used to lay the sins of Israel upon, and sacrificed for a covering of their sins.
The book of Revelation, is all about Judgment of Christ and all that He went through to completely and totally, leave out nothing in the process of redeeming the world back to God.
Now, Christianity sees the Anti-Christ, Babylon the great, the beast of Revelation all as Satan and his gang.
But if you have read many of my posts, you would have seen that Satan is an agent of God for good.
Evil is not evil until it is placed in action. Just as temptation is not a sin until one acts on it.
So, Evil in action is not Satan, but humans performing the evil and blaming it on Satan.
Satan then, is the things in the world that entices us to sin.
In the case of Judas who betrayed Jesus, the lusts for the silver was his enticement to perform an evil deed, but then too, Jesus needed an accomplish to carry out His mission.
So God via His agent Satan, the Adversary, is described as entering Judas to betray Jesus.
Judas never goes to hell, or the Jews and soldiers who crucified Jesus, because they were all instrumental in Jesus bringing His mission to term.
Am I in deep doo-doo yet?
Dexter, the simple truth of all of it is, that God created us all for Himself, but because of the consequences of being made a living soul, (Flesh and spirit, and acquiring knowledge) He gave us the opportunity to experience life as a god, meaning having decision making power, and then not charging it to us for all our mistakes in doing so.
First Adam brought life in the flesh and death of spirit.
Second Adam brought life of spirit and no death clause ever!
There, in those two sentences is all what God did.
Between those two, is mankind’s domain.
Mankind was given to subdue the earth, rule over it.
The question is, would he rule righteously, or selfishly?
Well, you know history, it tells it all.
Peace>>>AJ
Ah. I thought he was being metaphorical and leading up to something that never came, didn't realize that was actually the answer. I guess I was looking for complexity that wasn't there. He also said Jesus is Babylon, and something that's starred out twice.
AJ is probably the only person on the planet who thinks the Beast described in Revelation is Jesus. Can't see the logic of it myself. Wouldn't that mean both sides at the upcoming Battle of Armageddon will be led by the same guy?
AJ is probably the only person on the planet who thinks the Beast described in Revelation is Jesus. Can't see the logic of it myself. Wouldn't that mean both sides at the upcoming Battle of Armageddon will be led by the same guy?
Well I'm not sure that Jesus is the Beast according to AJ...that's what he seems to say... but AJ will have to confirm that...
The battle of Armageddon is what Jesus has to battle going to the cross. The book of Revelation is written about Jesus' travail and how He conquered the consequence of all sin in order to win salvation, not just for the righteous, but for the unrighteous still.
That the part where humanity is hung up, they can't believe that God would rescue the unrighteous as if they were righteous. Mankind's ways wouldn't have nothing to do with such a thought.
Fortunately, some are beginning to see it as well, but not so easy to see, considering that religion has dogmatically set the par for that what is thought of today.
There are bits and pieces amongst the different religions that give my view certain credibility.
I believe that a time has come were information INTERNET is bringing the world much closer together and with some very interesting Revelations along the lines of religious beliefs, and are been shown to be quite opposite of what has been the norm.
All of course is my own opinions, and they hold no weight.
Peace>>>AJ
What the bible tells me, is that God has to take the sins of the world (In totality) pay the price for them in order to liberate mankind to again have entrance to His presence.
Up until Jesus came, that was not possible and non-negotiable.
Because God created the first parents, set them in a ballpark (Earth) without their permission, set the rules for the game, and caused them to live within those rules without the hope of accomplishing them.
It sounds like I am painting a picture of an unfair God, but quite the opposite.
If one comes to understand what God did, one would die with appreciation.
For God loved and loves all His creatures and would have non of them be separated for ever with out Him.
How did He do it?
Mankind was given the right to sin when he gained knowledge of good and evil.
So throughout the ages of mankind, there were all sorts of attempts to identify a higher spiritual entity that mankind could relate to.
So images of all sorts were erected as gods.
Evil mankind also prevailed to the slaughter of millions over the ages.
God had to go to the beginning, if He was to capture all the sin that was committed amongst all of mankind, as pictured by the number 7 or the 7-day creation story, plus, all of the yet unborn future souls possibility of sins, encapsulate all the sins collected into one body (Lamb for the sacrifice), and have mankind offer it back to God as a ransom for mankind's souls.
Means, God provided the ransom and not mankind.
So, the beast is the sacrificial lamb (Symbolism) and the great ***** is the lamb who loves the souls of all mankind, written in a form that depicted the events of the times, but seen not for the events themselves, but to be seen in the spiritual sense the battle that was completed spiritually.
Jesus had to become that which mankind was sentenced with, so in essences, He became the greatest sinner ever to exist, as He held the sins of the entire world, and as God, paid the price for all of them.
It's a pretty simple plan, but mankind has added to it to where the whole plan has been clouded over with.
God is not naive to any of it, but is ever watchful and in charge of the whole thing.
That is why, to read the bible without having the spirit of God to open our eyes to see, we will be blinded and see only those things which depict events that may or may not happen.
It that is the case then, we have what we have today, and uncertain, unpredictable Armageddon scenario, of which it's any body's guess.
Peace>>>AJ
That's one of the points that's always given me pause, essentially because it means god cannot have the characteristics usually ascribed to him. He got it wrong when he set things up the first time, or else it was a deliberate setup, and he expresses considerable chagrin and surprise when he discovers his creatures have eaten from the tree he forbade them. Like he couldn't see that coming? Either way, he's neither omnipotent nor omniscient and is thus, assuming he exists at all, not worthy of unconditional worship.
