"Identify the Beast"

[look3467]

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Thrones = those in power, especially the ones able to send Jesus to the cross= High priest, Judas, and the Roman government.
Those that sat on those thrones, Judgment was given them over the One being judged.

They were the ones beheaded for a witness of Jesus, meaning that, in order to make Jesus a true sacrifice, these souls first born status with God was cut off by Jesus when He said to them, “Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Which to them meant; that God as they knew Him was cut off and had to now go through Jesus. Hence the judgment of blasphemy on Jesus.

And of course, Jesus being a symbol of the Lamb of God, a beast, they did not worship Him, neither what He stood for (Image) nor did they any work to promote His message.
They lived and reigned with Christ that one day. (A thousand years)

Ref:
“one Day” 2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Those that participated in Christ’s crucifixion reigned in their proper place as Christ did His on that one day.

“thrones” Psa 122:5 For there are set thrones of judgment, the thrones of the house of David.
Those who sat in Judgment of Christ, technically sat in judgment of the whole world, for the whole worlds sins were laid on Christ.

“beheaded”
Deu 21:6 And all the elders of that city, that are next unto the slain man, shall wash their hands over the heifer that is beheaded in the valley:
There are two symbolic be-headings, Jesus beheads the high priest, and they in turn behead Jesus of His title, King of the Jews.
Jesus’ beheading of the Jesus is in requiring them to come through Him to get to the Father.
Their beheading of Jesus, is to crucify Him, denying Him the Kingship that was His.

“Witness of Jesus” is declaring Him an impostor, a blasphemer, thus for that Jesus beheads them.
Mat 26:65 Then the high priest rent his clothes, saying, He hath spoken blasphemy; what further need have we of witnesses? behold, now ye have heard his blasphemy.

“…and for the word of God”…the word, as given by God to Moses to the people, is the structure belief that caused them to deny Jesus,, and by which were blinded from seeing Jesus as the true Messiah.

Exo 35:2 Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the LORD: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death.

Jesus was accused of working on the Sabbath.

We can than see from this verse, that the beast is Jesus, the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world, by He becoming the sins of the world in Himself.

Religion is so bound by its own misunderstandings of these verses, that divisions are it's consequence.

Peace>>>AJ

 

[MikeyDB]

Remember what I said about dogma and tomes of rhetoric?

Thank you for providing the only answer you can.

Dogma and tomes of rhetoric.

 

[look3467]

Remember what I said about dogma and tomes of rhetoric?

Thank you for providing the only answer you can.

Dogma and tomes of rhetoric.

No argument there!

Anyone else care to disscuss this subject?

Peace>>>AJ

 

[AndyF]

Trust me Vereya, as a Christian, I was inwardly terrified of the end times ..................

Peace>>>AJ

Actually Christians don't worry about the end times at all. Every day they look forward to the day that their exile is ended. While they wait they live every day as if it were their last and they prepare themselves spiritually and ensure their souls are not blemished at all times.

So there is no concern really. Nasty things are a given and scripture says so and Satan has full reign to create havoc in the meanwhile. Our obligation is to worship and discern what is appropriate conduct and simply be good servants until that celestial train picks us up and takes us home.



AndyF

 

[AndyF]

First, nobody can physically attain heavenly perfection while on earth,
Peace>>>AJ

Disagree. Christ instructs us to "be perfect as our Father in heaven is perfect". These words confirm that God is in heaven and we, "on earth, right now" can attain perfection. Jesus meant it literally and in the present sense.

AndyF

 

[look3467]

Actually Christians don't worry about the end times at all. Every day they look forward to the day that their exile is ended. While they wait they live every day as if it were their last and they prepare themselves spiritually and ensure their souls are not blemished at all times.>>>Andy

That is what it is the general Christian view, but there is still some apprehension for lack of true evidence of truth in all those things supposed things coming through.

That is why there is so much interest in the end times? Look at the amount of books sold.
Though Christians believe in Jesus, yet there is no true understandings of the end times, therefore what one does not understand, there is a tendency to fear.

Christian are divided on the Rapture as a means of escaping all that mess they believe will come to pass.
The pre-trib, mid-trib and post tribulation raptures are just speculations and not of certain.
As long as people hope than there is no wrong in it.

So there is no concern really. Nasty things are a given and scripture says so and Satan has full reign to create havoc in the meanwhile. Our obligation is to worship and discern what is appropriate conduct and simply be good servants until that celestial train picks us up and takes us home. >>>Andy

Now I will agree with your last sentence, but the first, havoc is all man made induced for the greed and the lusts of the flesh.
Understanding the similitude of the beast as Jesus, is Jesus taking all of the worlds sin burden on Himself, thus the magnitude of sin is a monster of a beast.

Peace>>>AJ

 

[look3467]

Disagree. Christ instructs us to "be perfect as our Father in heaven is perfect". These words confirm that God is in heaven and we, "on earth, right now" can attain perfection. Jesus meant it literally and in the present sense.

AndyF

Yes, your very right. But remember, only if we are born of the spirit of God that we sin not.
Yet we sin everyday in one way or another signifying that without the blood of Jesus there is no hope.
If You are born again, Jesus to you has come again into your heart and need not that He come again into this world as thought.

I trust all good folk try to live their lives as best as they can, and to my understanding, they are all safe.

Peace>>>AJ

 

[Northboy]

No argument there!

Anyone else care to disscuss this subject?

Peace>>>AJ

What's the subject???

Identifying the Beast???

 

[look3467]

What's the subject???

Identifying the Beast???

Rev 17:11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.


Who is it?
Peace>>>AJ

 

[Dexter Sinister]

Who is it? I thought we'd settled that you think it's Jesus and I think it's the Roman Empire, while the specific person with the number 666 is someone contemporary with the time the book was written, probably an officer of the Empire. It's about current events at the time, couched in symbolism and metaphor--for reasons of deniability, given the political situation--but the target audience (which is not us) would have understood who it was, while we lack the information to give a definitive answer to who the guy was.

Anybody got any other ideas?

 

[look3467]

Who is it? I thought we'd settled that you think it's Jesus and I think it's the Roman Empire, while the specific person with the number 666 is someone contemporary with the time the book was written, probably an officer of the Empire. It's about current events at the time, couched in symbolism and metaphor--for reasons of deniability, given the political situation--but the target audience (which is not us) would have understood who it was, while we lack the information to give a definitive answer to who the guy was.

Anybody got any other ideas?

Yes, but Northboy chimed in and so I addressed his post.

The pictures seen in the bible have allot to do with the events taken placwe at the time of their writings as you pointed out, and God uses them to, because it is sometyhing that we can understand or relate to.
What makes Jesus the mother of Harlots, is that He is the lover of all mankind, and to the Jews and according to thier belief structure is a no no.

We then must learn how those things are used in the message so that we may have a better understanding.

So God uses those things which are...here let me quote that scripture:
1Co 1:28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:

Peace>>>AJ

But if one has understanding, none of it offends.

 

[AndyF]

We can than see from this verse, that the beast is Jesus, the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world, by He becoming the sins of the world in Himself.

Religion is so bound by its own misunderstandings of these verses, that divisions are it's consequence.

Peace>>>AJ

This is blasphemy. The Lamb is not the cause for his sacrifice.

He(God's son) sacrificed himself to right a wrong committed by others(man), not by himself. He does not identify with the sins, they are long past and continue to be born in these days.

If there were one Religion as it should be there could not be other religions to dispute. That Religion is the sound one has Christ founded it.

AndyF

 

[MikeyDB]

OK...it's seldom talked about in the light of day but I have it on good authority that Andy Warhol and Woody Allen are 2/3 of an unholy trinity that is the presence of evil incarnate on this earth....

The third of course is .......argh....ahhhhhhhhh..qxsyhplskthj.......

 

[look3467]

This is blasphemy. The Lamb is not the cause for his sacrifice.

He(God's son) sacrificed himself to right a wrong committed by others(man), not by himself. He does not identify with the sins, they are long past and continue to be born in these days.

If there were one Religion as it should be there could not be other religions to dispute. That Religion is the sound one has Christ founded it.

AndyF

God is the creator is He not? He created Adam, placed him on earth (Garden) and gave him intelligence did He not?
Intelligence came with a price, separation from God which is death, you agree?
Because: Adam made not himself, therefore had no power to do anything about his death condition.
A similitude of Adam, a second Adam, Jesus prophesied to be the Savior of the world comes into the picture at a predetermined time in history as a lamb of sacrifice to deal with the consequence of the death penalty.
The first Adam was made a living soul(With a death penalty) the second Adam was made a quickening spirit (With Life).
The thing you call wrong is not a wrong but a godly design so that mankind can experience godly qualities (Knowledge of good and evil) without the penalty of eternal separation (Death) in Jesus Christ.

There is no one religion, but there is one love.

God is love.

Peace>>>AJ

 

[look3467]

OK...it's seldom talked about in the light of day but I have it on good authority that Andy Warhol and Woody Allen are 2/3 of an unholy trinity that is the presence of evil incarnate on this earth....

The third of course is .......argh....ahhhhhhhhh..qxsyhplskthj.......

Does that code have a breakdown? ".......argh....ahhhhhhhhh..qxsyhplskthj......."

Peace>>>AJ

 

[hermanntrude]

reminds me of the castle of arrrrrrrrrrrgh. "Someone must have killed him". "don't be silly, he wouldn't have carved "arrrrrrrrrrrrrgh, would he?" "perhaps he was dictating?"

"ooooOOOoOooooOOOOoo!"

"nonono it's more like arrrrrrrrrrrgh"

"nono... OOoooooOOOOoooo in tones of surprise and alarm..."

 

[DurkaDurka]

OK...it's seldom talked about in the light of day but I have it on good authority that Andy Warhol and Woody Allen are 2/3 of an unholy trinity that is the presence of evil incarnate on this earth....

The third of course is .......argh....ahhhhhhhhh..qxsyhplskthj.......

Well... woody did marry his step-daughter, that's gotta be worth something.:roll:

 

[AndyF]

God is the creator is He not? He created Adam, placed him on earth (Garden) and gave him intelligence did He not?

Yes

Intelligence came with a price, separation from God which is death, you agree?

Death in the eternal sense is severing oneself from his destined end. Natural death is a given and is in reality a change of state for Christians.

Intelligence's purpose is to be used by a well formed conscience. It is a free grace. The seperation is due to not making use of these tools which were designed to keep him in friendship with God.

Adam made not himself, therefore had no power to do anything about his death condition.

Through our redemption man can now choose eternal death or life. Natural death isn't an option.

A similitude of Adam, a second Adam, Jesus

Yes, except for original sin. Jesus was born unblemished. His baptism was in keeping with custom and this was brought to light when John said that he(Jesus) should be baptising him, but Jesus said he should relent and John obliged.

prophesied to be the Savior of the world comes into the picture at a predetermined time in history as a lamb of sacrifice to deal with the consequence of the death penalty.

The redemption had two effects: It restored man's friendship with God, and presented to a contrite man the means to absolve himself of his sin. The instant of Baptism, and the instant of the reception of absolution through confession constitues what Protestants define has the states one is saved. What a person does from that point on may change this.
(Incidentally, protestants can confess to a Catholic priest as well.)

There is no one religion

Then Jesus made a typo, he really meant to say, "And on this rock I will build my .......Churches".

Also, "If a man will not hear the Church, let him be as the heathen". By this statement alone Jesus states that anyone believing anything other than what his Church teaches, then he is not within the true Church. Therefore all religions or forms of worship can not be right.

God intructed us how we are to express that "love", and that is how he is able to identify those who truely love him. Who would bring his mother dandelions if he knows she doesn't like them and prefers roses.?

If you attribute the worst insult to a God by saying he is a beast, what do you attribute to Satan.?
Even metaphorically it's inappropriate.

Andy

 

[look3467]

Then Jesus made a typo, he really meant to say, "And on this rock I will build my .......Churches".>>>Andy

No, its a matter of interpretation. The Catholic see it as Peter being the rock, where I see it as Jesus being the rock.
Meaning, that the type of faith needed to be part of that church requires Christ like faith.
Peter, recognized that type of faith in Peter thus He said that upon that type of faith, the church will be established.

You recall reading where Peter denied Jesus 3 times? Yes, 3 times as a significant number in meaning.
God doubles things twice before bringing it to pass.

Jesus was in hell 2 days and on the third day was resurrected.
Pharaohs dream was given to him twice before it was revealed by Daniel.
So, in light of the whole word and not just on that one verse, the rock is Jesus and all references to that element of a rock which is solidness, is the faith that Jesus demonstrated as His own, and by whose faith we take as our own for the purposes of our salvation.

Also, "If a man will not hear the Church, let him be as the heathen". By this statement alone Jesus states that anyone believing anything other than what his Church teaches, then he is not within the true Church. Therefore all religions or forms of worship can not be right>>>Andy

The hedon is in reference to then the Gentiles outside the nation of Israel.
But since Christ's death and resurrection, their is neither Jew nor Greek, for they are both one in Jesus.
I can give you scripture references if you like.

Getting back to the beast we read: EZE 1:5 Also out of the midst thereof came the likeness of four living creatures. And this was their appearance; they had the likeness of a man.
These four beasts are Representative of Christ:
They are the 4 beasts with 6-wings in the book of revelation; they are also Daniel’s and Hosea's 4 beasts. The second in revelation is as a calf, Ezekiel sees it as a ox, all are similitude’s, all seen just a bit different.
REV 4:7 And the first beast was like a lion, and the second beast like a calf, and the third beast had a face as a man, and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle
The Lion:
Rev 5:5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
A calf, a ram an lamb all signify the same thing:
Heb 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
Gen 22:8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.

Face of a man:
Ezr 9:7 Since the days of our fathers have we been in a great trespass unto this day; and for our iniquities have we, our kings, and our priests, been delivered into the hand of the kings of the lands, to the sword, to captivity, and to a spoil, and to confusion of face, as it is this day.
Flying eagle:
Hos 9:11 As for Ephraim, their glory shall fly away like a bird, from the birth, and from the womb, and from the conception.

Jesus died and His Spirit flew away, as if Ephraim, had lost the opportunity to travail with the child Jesus.

"When the ark was removed from Shiloh to Zion the power of Ephraim was humbled."...
From the settlement of Canaan till the time of David and Solomon, Ephraim had held the place of honor among the tribes.
>>>Easton commentary

There is so much to learn and discover about God's wonderful works, yet none of it contradicts its self, but must be sorted out by us as we make it a work of joy discovering nuggets of Gold in His word.

Peace>>>AJ

 

[Dexter Sinister]

...yet none of it contradicts its self...

I can give you a link to a list of over 300 directly contradictory statements in the Bible, if you're interested. Many of them are pretty trivial, like how many sons some patriarch had and how many people god killed off in some fit of displeasure with humanity, but some are significant, like the issue of whether or not the Old Testament rules given in Exodus, Leviticus, and Deuteronomy, still apply. Jesus is cited in the New Testament as supporting both positions. No amount of verbal gymnastics can explain away all the contradictions, which is one of the reasons I view the Bible purely as a work of human literature, not a revelation from god. I know of no good reason to think such a being even exists, and I know of many good reasons to think he doesn't. And that is in fact exactly what I think: there is no god, and anyone who thinks there is, is simply wrong, has failed to understand the evidence. Or lack of it.