How the GW myth is perpetuated

Tonington

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 27, 2006
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I just love those 10:10 commercials. Very telling.

And on the flip side, we have a string hypothesis physicist climate denier blogger advocating for genocide or forced detention:

I am normally against euthanasia but it simply seems to me that there is no other help for the people who are writing most of the stuff above. It's literally pandemics. The society should urgently put these people into quarantine, hoping that it is not too late.
Lots of nutbars, only nobody from the "skeptic" camp ever decries these statements, or political statements from Senator Inhoffe akin to Mccarthyism, or Auditor Generals who try to use the law to punish scientists for their findings. A prominent blogger, Joe Romm repudiated this 10:10 video:
More thoughts on the offensive ‘No Pressure’ video Climate Progress

Romm also hosts some guest bloggers, Bill McKibben in this case also denounced the 10:10 video:
Bill McKibben: Days that Suck Climate Progress

Climate deniers sure do love the double-standard.
 

damngrumpy

Executive Branch Member
Mar 16, 2005
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kelowna bc
First of all, just about the time the environmentalists were
discredited, for destroying evidence, they changed the term
to Climate Change.
I think people have contributed some to the problem but I also
believe the world is in a warming trend and will continue to do
so several centuries to come regardless of what man does.
There were times when Alaska was a tropical sea, the old
bald prairie was a vast inland shallow sea. The Okanagan
Valley, where I live was under about 12 hundred feet of ice
not that long ago.
times change civilizations come and go and the earth warms
and cools as it did during the middle ages in Europe.
I think the universe has more to do with our problems than
the events of mankind. We just bear the brunt of what happens.
 

Tonington

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 27, 2006
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Just because Alaska was once a tropical sea is meaningless, because nobody denies that the climate can change. Human civilization has flourished in a narrow window where agriculture is possible. Proliferating the carbon in our fuels and bringing our planet back to Pennsylvanian period atmospheric levels would be devastating for most species on this planet. The planet cooled during the Pennsylvanian because of glaciation triggered by the drifting continent of Gondwana. And the carbon that built up in the Carboniferous did so over geologic periods, not periods distinguished by a handful of human generations.

The oceans are particularly sensitive to quick changes like we're imposing now. The fossil record, the geologic record, and our climate record all point towards trouble. It's like walking into a booby trap with the writing on the walls.

And for what it's worth, climate change is a more accurate term, and it's the term you find in the scientific literature. Global warming was used early on when it was hypothesized that we should experience global warming due to the greenhouse gases our industry was creating, and by the late 1990's, it was already clear that the globe was warming. In the early 2000's, attribution to human activities was made possible by our records. The academics refer to climate change in their investigations because global warming is only one part of what our activities are producing in the climate system.
 

petros

The Central Scrutinizer
Nov 21, 2008
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Low Earth Orbit
Global warming was used early on when it was hypothesized that we should experience global warming due to the greenhouse gases our industry was creating, and by the late 1990's, it was already clear that the globe was warming.
You missed the part about it getting warmer from cosmic rays due to ozone holes.
 

Tonington

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 27, 2006
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You missed the part about it getting warmer from cosmic rays due to ozone holes.

No, I leave out hypotheses that don't pass muster. Researchers advocating the hypothesis linking cosmic rays and ozone holes predicted the largest ozone hole on record would form in 2008. It wasn't, it was average for the decade.

Second, the mechanism that the cosmic ray folks favour is cloud seeding by cosmic rays. The ozone hole is up in the stratosphere over Antarctica, where very few clouds form. The clouds that do form, polar stratospheric clouds, are primarily impacted by temperature, not aerosols such as those which the cosmic ray people favour.

And lastly, the folks proposing this theory that galactic cosmic rays are causing more chlorine to be released is based on very weak correlations.

For more detailed criticism, you can get more info in these published comments:
http://www.science.uwaterloo.ca/~qblu/Comment-Ozone%201.pdf
http://www.science.uwaterloo.ca/~qblu/Comment-Ozone%202.pdf

Or this review:
http://juwel.fz-juelich.de:8080/dspace/bitstream/2128/564/1/Mueller2003_prl.pdf
 

damngrumpy

Executive Branch Member
Mar 16, 2005
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kelowna bc
Granted the quick changes in ocean current temps, are a problem
the old elevator system of the currents across the north Atlantic
if interrupted would in fact cause serious problems.
I believe we are overstating, the problem for fund raising in many
cases. I deal with environmental issues every day as a farmer,
so I don't think everything is just fine either. I always look for the
products that will have the least impact on air and water, even
on soil. I do believe there are a lot of people who don't have a clue
as to what they are talking about and blindly site one side or another.
I need a lot more evidence to persuade me to believe the end is
near though.
 

petros

The Central Scrutinizer
Nov 21, 2008
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No, I leave out hypotheses that don't pass muster. Researchers advocating the hypothesis linking cosmic rays and ozone holes predicted the largest ozone hole on record would form in 2008. It wasn't, it was average for the decade.

Second, the mechanism that the cosmic ray folks favour is cloud seeding by cosmic rays. The ozone hole is up in the stratosphere over Antarctica, where very few clouds form. The clouds that do form, polar stratospheric clouds, are primarily impacted by temperature, not aerosols such as those which the cosmic ray people favour.

And lastly, the folks proposing this theory that galactic cosmic rays are causing more chlorine to be released is based on very weak correlations.

For more detailed criticism, you can get more info in these published comments:
http://www.science.uwaterloo.ca/~qblu/Comment-Ozone%201.pdf
http://www.science.uwaterloo.ca/~qblu/Comment-Ozone%202.pdf

Or this review:
http://juwel.fz-juelich.de:8080/dspace/bitstream/2128/564/1/Mueller2003_prl.pdf
Failure or not it was a highly promoted and over blown hypothesis that is part of the historic and scientific timeline. It served it's purpose well propaganda wise.
 

ironsides

Executive Branch Member
Feb 13, 2009
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The end is not near, at least not in the next 100-200 years. What will be a problem during that time will be water or the lack of it causing farmers either to adapt with more crops more adapted to drier weather or move to places where they can grow what they want..
 

Tonington

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 27, 2006
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I need a lot more evidence to persuade me to believe the end is
near though.

The end isn't near...not for us. It is going to be very difficult though. We have technology that can deal with problems. But our society depends on ecological servicing, something you as a farmer are probably more aware of than most.

How do we prevent large scale mortality in the ocean due to changing pH? Who pays to move millions of people away from the coast? What happens when arable land turns to desert? What happens to cold temperature species? Who pays for desalination plants for drinking water?

It's leaving future generations with hard decisions and making it tougher for them to prosper. Many won't.
 

JLM

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 27, 2008
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Vernon, B.C.
The end isn't near...not for us. It is going to be very difficult though. We have technology that can deal with problems. But our society depends on ecological servicing, something you as a farmer are probably more aware of than most.

How do we prevent large scale mortality in the ocean due to changing pH? Who pays to move millions of people away from the coast? What happens when arable land turns to desert? What happens to cold temperature species? Who pays for desalination plants for drinking water?

It's leaving future generations with hard decisions and making it tougher for them to prosper. Many won't.

The way the human race is going they are not going to have to face THOSE problems. Greed is going to be the indirect cause of man's demise, followed by laziness and obesity and heart failure. So for the population that is left there will be lots of water and arable land. Mother Nature is a pretty good planner, hence "Survival of the fittest". If you look back at the Romans, when they had it all, they got lazy and fat then met their demise.
 

Tonington

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 27, 2006
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Mother Nature is a pretty good planner, hence "Survival of the fittest". If you look back at the Romans, when they had it all, they got lazy and fat then met their demise.

Survival of the fittest as seen in the wilderness doesn't really apply to humans. We have social systems that cover the "fitness" gap.
 

JLM

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 27, 2008
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Survival of the fittest as seen in the wilderness doesn't really apply to humans. We have social systems that cover the "fitness" gap.

We do, but that is quickly coming to an end. In another 30 years or so half the population will be over 50, most of which will be drawing off the social system in one way or another. Health costs will be astronomical, especially if 2/3 of the population over 50 is obese. Anyway I think you are clever enough to see where it's all headed. We are going to have about 10% of the population who is fit and working, but they will be strangled by the tax load, so they will say to hell with it and that will be about "all she wrote". :lol:
 

Tonington

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 27, 2006
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Yup, the tax load will be immense, hence why I think we ought to deal with issues now before they become big problems later. I will be paying for it, my children will be paying more.
 

Nuggler

kind and gentle
Feb 27, 2006
11,596
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Backwater, Ontario.
8O hey, there's no such thing as global warming. Also;

  1. Energy
  2. Water
  3. Food
  4. Environment
  5. Poverty
  6. Terrorism & War
  7. Disease
  8. Education
  9. Democracy
  10. Population
No problem with any of the above either.


Pull those blinders well over and enjoy life.


Don't worry. Be happy.:-( Uncle corporate Canada loves ya.