Hamas attacks Israel

[Ron in Regina]

Finally happened. Only took 15 months, & it’s a partial list but…The Palestinian Islamist group Hamas has handed over to mediators a list showing that 25 Israeli hostages are still alive, out of 33 scheduled for release, an official of the group told Reuters on Monday.

Does that mean the child hostages will now be freed?

Was that the deal agreed to with HAMAS for release of the hostages abducted from Israel October 7th 2023?

Under the terms of the ceasefire agreement, residents of northern Gaza were due to return at the weekend. But Israel said that Hamas had broken the deal by failing to release civilian female hostage Arbel Yehud and kept its forces in the Netzarim corridor that cuts across the enclave south of Gaza City.

Late on Sunday, Qatari mediators resolved the dispute after Hamas agreed to release Yehud, along with female soldier Agam Berger and another hostage on Thursday, two days before the next scheduled release of three more hostages on Saturday. Israel then gave the green light for a return to north Gaza from Monday morning.

Gaza residents stream home to the north after hostage breakthrough — Reuters

Tens of thousands of Palestinians streamed along the main roads leading north in Gaza on Monday, jubilant to be returning home after months of living in temporary shelter but fearing what might remain of their homes amid the bombed-out ruins.

apple.news

Hamas has also provided a list of all hostages to be released during the first six-week phase of the ceasefire agreement, stating their condition.

On Monday, a Hamas official told Reuters the group had handed over to mediators a list that showed that 25 of 33 hostages scheduled for release in the first phase are alive. The figure of 25 included the seven hostages released since the truce began on Jan. 19.

Israel has confirmed the Hamas figures in the list - 25 are alive but eight were killed by Hamas, an Israeli government spokesman said.

The identities of who was dead and who was alive was not immediately confirmed, keeping families in a state of hope and dread.

Israeli authorities have previously said there are grave concerns about the lives of Shiri Bibas and her two sons, aged 4 years and 10 months when they were abducted from Kibbutz Nir Oz.

 

[petros]

Was that the deal agreed to with HAMAS for release of the hostages abducted from Israel October 7th 2023?

In the first phase of the ceasefire deal, Israel is required to release all Palestinian women and children, including prisoners re-arrested after their liberation in the Shalit deal, and more than 200 prisoners sentenced to life imprisonment, in exchange for 33 Israeli prisoners.

 

[Tecumsehsbones]

And y'all thought YOUR exchange rate was bad!

 

[Ron in Regina]

In the first phase of the ceasefire deal, Israel is required to release all Palestinian women and children, including prisoners re-arrested after their liberation in the Shalit deal, and more than 200 prisoners sentenced to life imprisonment, in exchange for 33 Israeli prisoners.

I guess, in the nature of spoon feeding out dribbled amounts of hostages for prisoners, the first phase isn’t over yet if it lasts for the six’s weeks…by the way, do you have a link for that? I tried clicking on the red writing above, but it doesn’t do anything.

 

[petros]

I guess, in the nature of spoon feeding out dribbled amounts of hostages for prisoners, the first phase isn’t over yet if it lasts for the six’s weeks…by the way, do you have a link for that? I tried clicking on the red writing above, but it doesn’t do anything.

Hostages for hostages. Children who chucked rocks are hostages if no charges or due process in a court of law.

It's another war crime against terrorist state of Israel.

Forcible transfer of children.

[30 January 2022] – According to data released by the Israeli Prison Service (IPS), 64 percent of Palestinian children detained by Israeli military forces in the West Bank were transferred and detained inside Israel in 2021. The transfer and detention of these children outside the West Bank is classified as a war crime under the Fourth Geneva Convention – a treaty drafted in the aftermath of the Second World War and ratified by 196 States, including Israel in The practice is also prohibited under the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court (ICC).[ii]
Experience gained during the Second World War convinced a generation of leaders that the transfer of population groups, in or out of occupied territory, must be prohibited in all circumstances. This belief was so firmly held that it was enshrined in law attaching personal criminal responsibility for violations.[iii] Arguments suggesting that this law does not apply to Israel and Palestine are without merit and run contrary to over 40 UN Security Council resolutions and Israel’s own legal justification for prosecuting Palestinian civilians, including children, in military courts.[iv]

While there is universal acceptance that the transfer of prisoners from occupied territory is unlawful, no state is currently prepared to pay more than lip service to the principle in relation to Israel and Palestine.[v] Contrast this situation with the response to Russia’s purported annexation of Crimea in 2014 and subsequent transfer of Ukrainians to prison facilities located inside the Russian Federation. Russia’s actions not only resulted in near unanimous condemnation but were promptly followed up with targeted sanctions imposed by the US, UK, EU, Australia and Canada – all citing the importance of respect for the rule of law.[vi]

While this contrasting approach is understandable on the basis of an interests-based order, it undermines the credibility and weight that can be given to arguments based on a “rules-based” approach, including those invoked by the West in relation to recent actions by Russia and China.[vii] Arguments seeking to distinguish the situation in Israel and Palestine, presumably intended to exempt policy makers from their responsibilities, run the risk of doing irreparable harm to the long-term viability of the rules-based order. Ignoring these rules to support a friend and strategic partner, is not a rules-based order.

Since the International Criminal Court determined that it possessed jurisdiction over the territories occupied by Israel in 1967 (East Jerusalem, West Bank and Gaza) in February 2021, it is estimated that between 320 and 640 children have been forcibly transferred and/or unlawfully detained inside Israel in violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention and Rome Statute.[viii] This figure increases on a daily basis. The Office of the Prosecutor of the ICC has been in possession of evidence relating to the unlawful transfer of Palestinian child detainees from the West Bank to detention facilities inside Israel since 9 March 2015.

 

[Ron in Regina]

Hostages for hostages.

Like equal? Balance in the universe? That sorta thing?

 

[petros]

Like equal? Balance in the universe? That sorta thing?

The Fourth Geneva Convention was drafted and ratified by 196 nations including Israel. The basis for this law relates directly to what happened to Jews and other distinct groups in WW2.

To claim otherwise especially today on the 80th anniversary of the Liberation of Auschwitz is fucking disgusting.

 

[petros]

Fact Sheet: Palestinian Children in Israeli Military Detention​

Click to download and print this two-page fact sheet
Approximately 3 million Palestinians live in the occupied West Bank, of which around 45 percent are children under the age of 18.
Palestinian children in the West Bank, like adults, face arrest, prosecution, and imprisonment under an Israeli military detention system that denies them basic rights.

Military law has applied to Palestinians in the West Bank since 1967, when Israel occupied the territory following the Six Day War. Jewish settlers, however, who reside within the bounds of the West Bank, in violation of international law, are subject to the Israeli civilian legal framework. Accordingly, Israel operates two separate legal systems in the same territory. Palestinian children who live in Jerusalem generally fall under Israeli civilian law.

Israel has the dubious distinction of being the only country in the world that automatically and systematically prosecutes children in military courts that lack fundamental fair trial rights and protections. Israel prosecutes between 500 and 700 Palestinian children in military courts each year.

Children typically arrive at interrogation bound, blindfolded, frightened, and sleep-deprived.

Children often give confessions after verbal abuse, threats, physical and psychological violence that in some cases amounts to torture.

Israeli military law provides no right to legal counsel during interrogation, and Israeli military court judges seldom exclude confessions obtained by coercion or torture.

From testimonies of 766 Palestinian children detained by Israeli forces from the occupied West Bank and prosecuted in Israeli military courts between 2016 and 2022, DCIP found that:

• • 75 percent experienced physical violence following arrest
  • 97 percent were hand-tied
  • 89 percent were blindfolded
  • 80 percent were strip searched
  • 59 percent were detained from their homes in the middle of the night
  • 58 percent faced verbal abuse, humiliation, or intimidation
  • 66 percent of children were not properly informed of their rights
  • 97 percent were interrogated without the presence of a family member
  • 25 percent were subject to stress positions
  • 55 percent were shown or signed documents in Hebrew, a language most Palestinian children don’t understand
  • 23 percent were isolated in solitary confinement for interrogation purposes for 2+ days

Since 2000, an estimated 13,000 Palestinian children have been detained by Israeli forces from the occupied West Bank and held in the Israeli military detention system.

Israel in 1991 ratified the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child, which requires that children should only be deprived of their liberty as a measure of last resort, must not be unlawfully or arbitrarily detained, and must not be subjected to torture and other cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.

Despite sustained engagement by UNICEF and repeated calls to end night arrests and ill-treatment and torture of Palestinian children in Israeli military detention, Israeli authorities have persistently failed to implement practical changes to stop violence against child detainees.

Reforms undertaken by Israeli military authorities so far have tended to be cosmetic in nature rather than substantively addressing physical violence and torture by Israeli military and police forces.

Click to download and print this two-page fact sheet

 

[Ron in Regina]

Looks like a clone of the sites I’ve read through in the last hour-ish. Military courts instead of civilian courts in order to comply with international laws. Shitty deal.

{Part of the solution (not the whole solution) would be to not throw stones…}



Doesn’t seem like they’re a priority of Hamas though unfortunately, unless I’ve missed your link about this being a priority of Hamas in exchange for the hostages abducted from Israel Oct 7th though.

 

[petros]

Looks like a clone of the sites I’ve read through in the last hour-ish. Military courts instead of civilian courts in order to comply with international laws. Shitty deal.
View attachment 27116
{Part of the solution (not the whole solution) would be to not throw stones…}

View attachment 27117
View attachment 27118
Doesn’t seem like they’re a priority of Hamas though unfortunately, unless I’ve missed your link about this being a priority of Hamas in exchange for the hostages abducted from Israel Oct 7th though.

The solution is to not throw stones? Are you fucked?

 

[Ron in Regina]

The solution is to not throw stones? Are you fucked?

I didn’t say it was the solution….

{Part of the solution (not the whole solution) would be to not throw stones…}

…but it couldn’t hurt the situation, & not all are in for throwing rocks, but we where both skimming clones of the same material so I don’t have to tell you that.

Do I agree with the fact that all of these kids (& the numbers are all over the place) are incarcerated? Nope! Should some of them be (just like here in Canada and elsewhere)? Yeah, I’m sure some, but not all, should be.

Am I finding them referred to as hostages, anywhere (even all the charity sites)? Nope! The 23 released (so far) with the other 290 inmates in exchange for the 7 Israeli hostages…probably weren’t arrested at their Boy Scouts meeting…but that’s just suspicion on my part, backed up by the fact that Hamas would’ve agreed to that as opposed to more lifers, etc…

Anyway, if 1 living female IDF soldier is worth 50 living Palestinian inmates from Israeli jails…& 1 living Israeli civilian is worth 30 living Palestinian inmates, etc…on the Hamas/Palestine scale…what’s a Israeli corpse worth in Hamas/Palestinians?

Hostages for hostages.

Like equal? Balance in the universe? That sorta thing?

Israel says eight hostages due to be freed in first phase are dead — BBC News

A government spokesman says information provided by Hamas overnight matches Israel's intelligence.

apple.news

Is it the same ratios (?) or does it revert to a one for one thing? If it’s a deceased female IDF soldier, is that corpse with 50 deceased Palestinian inmates from Israeli prisons? Etc…? Or is it one deceased Israeli civilian for one deceased Palestinian Inmate? Or is it one deceased Israeli civilian for 30 living Palestinian inmates?

Is there a site like http://www.xe.com/currencyconverter/ that someone can go to for the current exchange rates?

 

[petros]

I didn’t say it was the solution….

…but it couldn’t hurt the situation, & not all are in for throwing rocks, but we where both skimming clones of the same material so I don’t have to tell you that.

Do I agree with the fact that all of these kids (& the numbers are all over the place) are incarcerated? Nope! Should some of them be (just like here in Canada and elsewhere)? Yeah, I’m sure some, but not all, should be.

Am I finding them referred to as hostages, anywhere (even all the charity sites)? Nope! The 23 released (so far) with the other 290 inmates in exchange for the 7 Israeli hostages…probably weren’t arrested at their Boy Scouts meeting…but that’s just suspicion on my part, backed up by the fact that Hamas would’ve agreed to that as opposed to more lifers, etc…

Anyway, if 1 living female IDF soldier is worth 50 living Palestinian inmates from Israeli jails…& 1 living Israeli civilian is worth 30 living Palestinian inmates, etc…on the Hamas/Palestine scale…what’s a Israeli corpse worth in Hamas/Palestinians?

Israel says eight hostages due to be freed in first phase are dead — BBC News

A government spokesman says information provided by Hamas overnight matches Israel's intelligence.

apple.news

Is it the same ratios (?) or does it revert to a one for one thing? If it’s a deceased female IDF soldier, is that corpse with 50 deceased Palestinian inmates from Israeli prisons? Etc…? Or is it one deceased Israeli civilian for one deceased Palestinian Inmate? Or is it one deceased Israeli civilian for 30 living Palestinian inmates?

Is there a site like http://www.xe.com/currencyconverter/ that someone can go to for the current exchange rates?

There is zero justification for breaking the Fourth Geneva Convention. Are you aware this has been happening for decades not just after the Octobercaust?

Should Putin get a pass for the same crime? Yes or no and why?

 

[Ron in Regina]

There is zero justification for breaking the Fourth Geneva Convention.

Weird question, but is the “Fourth Geneva Convention” being respected, in your opinion, with respect to the Arabs calling themselves Palestinians, by any side in this conflict? If not, then why (?), & where’s your outrage regarding this?

(above is the hospital that Hamas fighters emerged from, with their uniforms for a change, after the cease-fire was announced, for a photograph. Weird, eh?)

Are you aware this has been happening for decades not just after the Octobercaust?

I’m aware this goat rodeo isn’t new, & that this is just the latest round in it, started by Iranian backed Hamas Oct 7th, 2023.

Should Putin get a pass for the same crime? Yes or no and why?

I’m aware that Hamas considers Palestinians as disposable, & I’m aware that the surrounding nations consider Palestinians as disposable, & I’m aware that Palestinians also consider other Palestinians as disposable…all towards the goal of eradicating Israel.
I’m aware that Putin see’s the Ukrainians, Russians, North Koreans, etc…as disposable towards his goals, & I’m aware that neither the Israelis or Ukrainians see themselves as disposable.

Should Putin get a pass for the same crime? Yes or no and why?

For this reason, I see the alignment between Israelis & Ukrainians, and in turn between the alignment between Putins Russians & Irans tentacled affiliates. I’m pretty sure at this point that Israel & Ukraine see themselves in affiliation with each other, & I’m pretty sure Iran and it’s tentacled affiliates see themselves in affiliation with each other.

Why do you think Iran (the scapegoat?) is sending missiles and drones to Russia for use against the Ukrainians? Why are the Ukrainians & Israelis fighting together in Syria?

 

[Tecumsehsbones]

Weird question, but is the “Fourth Geneva Convention” being respected, in your opinion, with respect to the Arabs calling themselves Palestinians, by any side in this conflict? If not, then why (?), & where’s your outrage regarding this?

With all due respect, that's whataboutery.

Ham-ass is violating the laws of war. That in no way justifies Israel violating the laws of war.

 

[Ron in Regina]

With all due respect, that's whataboutery.

Ham-ass is violating the laws of war. That in no way justifies Israel violating the laws of war.

True. Just pointing out the obvious, but not endorsing it. It’s a shitty situation all around.

 

[Tecumsehsbones]

True. Just pointing out the obvious, but not endorsing it. It’s a shitty situation all around.

There won't be a clear winner and a clear loser in this latest kerfuffle, so I don't anticipate any Nurnberg-style war crimes tribunal.

That said, Israel does a better job of holding its own soldiers to account than Ham-ass. Not really surprising, Israel is part of the culture that crafted the laws of war (Western Europe).

 

[petros]

Weird question, but is the “Fourth Geneva Convention” being respected, in your opinion, with respect to the Arabs calling themselves Palestinians, by any side in this conflict? If not, then why (?), & where’s your outrage regarding this?
View attachment 27128
(above is the hospital that Hamas fighters emerged from, with their uniforms for a change, after the cease-fire was announced, for a photograph. Weird, eh?)
View attachment 27126

I’m aware this goat rodeo isn’t new, & that this is just the latest round in it, started by Iranian backed Hamas Oct 7th, 2023.

I’m aware that Hamas considers Palestinians as disposable, & I’m aware that the surrounding nations consider Palestinians as disposable, & I’m aware that Palestinians also consider other Palestinians as disposable…all towards the goal of eradicating Israel.
View attachment 27127I’m aware that Putin see’s the Ukrainians, Russians, North Koreans, etc…as disposable towards his goals, & I’m aware that neither the Israelis or Ukrainians see themselves as disposable.

For this reason, I see the alignment between Israelis & Ukrainians, and in turn between the alignment between Putins Russians & Irans tentacled affiliates. I’m pretty sure at this point that Israel & Ukraine see themselves in affiliation with each other, & I’m pretty sure Iran and it’s tentacled affiliates see themselves in affiliation with each other.

Why do you think Iran (the scapegoat?) is sending missiles and drones to Russia for use against the Ukrainians? Why are the Ukrainians & Israelis fighting together in Syria?

Should we not bother with laws and morals because it's Israel? I've said it before and I'll say it again, Netanyahu and Putin are using the same playbook and propaganda. If you cant see that its time for you to step back or go all in with a snip snip a Yamaha and a blues brother suit.

 

[Ron in Regina]

There won't be a clear winner and a clear loser in this latest kerfuffle, so I don't anticipate any Nurnberg-style war crimes tribunal.

Hamas is getting better at the propaganda aspect of things though. Hearts & minds.

That said, Israel does a better job of holding its own soldiers to account than Ham-ass. Not really surprising, Israel is part of the culture that crafted the laws of war (Western Europe).

Doesn’t change the fact that it’s a shitty situation all around, but I hear you.

 

[petros]

True. Just pointing out the obvious, but not endorsing it. It’s a shitty situation all around.

Here is obvious for you.

If Hamas is so shitty why were they funded by and backed by Israel?

Why did they give their support to Islamic Hamas over secular PLO? Too many Christians in the PLO to blame Islam? Obviously.

Are Mossad and Shin Bet a couple of the best intelligence agencies in the world or are they worst? How did Hamas manage to vet Mossad and Shin Bet out of Hamas leadership to the point that no one had a clue Hamas was planning the Octobercaust? Obviously slack jawed Hamas yokels are superior to both Mossad and Shin Bet. Obviously CSIS should hire Hamas so Canada can be superior to Mossad, Shin Bet and CIA. Obviously that would be cool

Have you ever heard of geophones and magnetometers? Obviously yes. Why haven't Mossad and Shin Bet? If they do know what they are, what stopped Mossad and Shin Bet from air dropping thousands of itty bitty disposable geophones or run magnetometers off of drones to map out every inch of tunnel and identify every subterranean chunk of steel that doesn’t correlate to civic works that Israel obviously knows about. They can manufacture exploding pagers and cell phones but obviously have zero clue about basic geophysical tomography?

Obviously none of this adds up. Can you make it add up?

I obviouly have more questions that obviously need your explanation but I'll obviously have another coffee and wait for the obvious.

 

[Serryah]

There won't be a clear winner and a clear loser in this latest kerfuffle, so I don't anticipate any Nurnberg-style war crimes tribunal.

That said, Israel does a better job of holding its own soldiers to account than Ham-ass. Not really surprising, Israel is part of the culture that crafted the laws of war (Western Europe).

If Israel doing basically nothing when their soldiers do anything wrong is 'holding them to account', then I suppose, sure, they're doing fantastic.

Most of the time they find 'no wrong doing' and the soldiers get away with it.