Gun-toting woman divides community

Vanni Fucci

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Dec 26, 2004
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Uh huh, that is the fascist view, that rights come from the state. Its caused a lot of problems over the years.

The other view is that individuals hold rights, which they deign to empower the state with on their behalf and may revoke should they feel the state is mishandling them.

Those societies tend to better ones to live in.

Ah...fascist is it...I was wondering when that term would be thrown my way...:roll:

If you wish to believe this illusion that is of course your prerogative, but please bear in mind that our Charter of Rights and Freedoms contains the "Notwithstanding Clause" which would allow the government to suspend any right that you hold should the need arise.
 

Vanni Fucci

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The "realization" of their rights, which means the right exists, the state either realizes it, or not; the quote in no way supports the contention that existence of rights depends on the whim of the state.......


Certainly Blacksone believed rights were god-given......or "natural".​

Umm...no...

The realization of rights in no way implies that they are natural or god-given...what it means is that the state must support the enforcement of that right in order for the right to exist.


Contrary to what you may believe, you have no rights that are not provided by your government.

If the government were to fall and anarchy ensued...what god-given rights would you enjoy then?
 

Colpy

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Nov 5, 2005
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Umm...no...

The realization of rights in no way implies that they are natural or god-given...what it means is that the state must support the enforcement of that right in order for the right to exist.


Contrary to what you may believe, you have no rights that are not provided by your government.

If the government were to fall and anarchy ensued...what god-given rights would you enjoy then?

So.....you are saying rights exist at the pleasure of gov't.....wow!

so.....there is no such thing as a legitimate complaint that the state is denying your rights......because they exist only at the pleasure of the state......

Okay.....if that is what you believe, but statism runs contrary to English Common Law, which is the sustem we live under.....and English Common Law is largely defined by William Blackstone, who believes rights are natural and not granted by the state....

You're swimming against the flow here.

And, I submit, your ideas reflect the rationale of the tyrant.....
 

Vanni Fucci

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You didn't answer the question:

In an anarchical society, what right beyond the most basic and primal would you be entitled to?

In a society where you could be shot dead for speaking your mind...what individual right to free speech would you have...

In a society where as an individual you and your family could be set upon by armed bands of militants at any time...what individual right to life would you have?

Put another way, if there were no Universal Declaration of Human Rights, no Charter of Rights and Freedoms and no Constitution anywhere in the world...what rights do you think you would have...how far do you think your perceived right to free speech would go without a body of government to enact a law and enforce and uphold it in the courts?

Without those laws, your rights do not exist...

Tyranny has nothing to do with it...this is the world in which you have always lived, whether you wish to see it that way or not.
 

Vanni Fucci

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so.....there is no such thing as a legitimate complaint that the state is denying your rights......because they exist only at the pleasure of the state......

Of course there is, don't be stupid...

The systems of redress are part of the laws that provide those rights to you...you know this, and I don't know why you're being so damned obtuse about it...

You've asserted several times that your right to bear arms exists, and is god-given or natural or whatever...

Why is it then that you don't strap on a Deagle and walk into your nearest RCMP detachment to tell them all about your rights?
 
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Praxius

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Dec 18, 2007
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So.....you are saying rights exist at the pleasure of gov't.....wow!

Basically in a nutshell, yeah.

That's why certain rights and certain laws differ from country to country, government to government. One government/country claims owning firearms is a right, while another doesn't. One executes, another doesn't.... drugs..... no drugs..... prostitution, no prostitution... innocent until proven guilty, guilty until proven innocent....... choose your job, the job is chosen for you.

Just because a collective of similar thinking nations join together and agree on something that works for all of their nations, doesn't make it biblical.

so.....there is no such thing as a legitimate complaint that the state is denying your rights......because they exist only at the pleasure of the state......

Well for example, the US was created by some four fathers right? They basically wrote the constitution, that all formed how that government and that country should be run based on how they thought it should. But just because they stepped up to the plate on deciding all of this, doesn't actually make them perfectly correct does it?

And wasn't that all written by the government, or those who would soon form the government in which they approved?

Okay.....if that is what you believe, but statism runs contrary to English Common Law, which is the sustem we live under.....and English Common Law is largely defined by William Blackstone, who believes rights are natural and not granted by the state....

But here in lies the problem.... for much of any decision to be approved and accepted, it has to run through the government first one way or another.

I could say that we all have the right to have sex only twice a day, but just because I say so, doesn't make it right (Even if you agree with it) So how does a nation adopt that right?

The courts and lawyers can only go so far in deciding the fate of a nation and how it's people will live..... and the government is only a step or two behind what they are doing to make sure things are going as they please.

Sure some basic human rights sound right, most of us can all agree on them and they seem fair...... but it's all really subjective based on culture/society.
 

taxslave

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Wow... nice come back buddy, you couldn't even spell my name right.... it's only 7 letters and it's spelled the same way it's pronounced...... who's the one sounding stupid again?

I already am out in the real world, which is why I know more about the subject then you clearly do..... pssh.... complaining about border gaurds carrying firearms and not even knowing the background reasons why they have them.

Or even your lame ass assumption about people who work in the forces?

Yeah.... nice argument.

Thanks for playing though. :roll:
Spelling intentional. I wanted to keep it close to your intelligence level. Actually I worked for DND for a while but the incompetence was too much to take for the pay.
 

bobnoorduyn

Council Member
Nov 26, 2008
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You didn't answer the question:

In an anarchical society, what right beyond the most basic and primal would you be entitled to?

In a society where you could be shot dead for speaking your mind...what individual right to free speech would you have...



Allow me to try; under anarchy all rights are complete and absoulute, you have the absolute right to do completely as you please, problem is, so does everyone else. This is why they call it anarchy.

In the next example, we have countries that do shoot you for speaking your mind, and it is legal, but that's a different story, so let's leave that for a bit.

True anarchy doesn't last long, as the strong kill the weak either all are killed or alliances are formed amongst like thinking parties. To ensure survival, rules of conduct have to be set out. They could be rules like those of Somalia, where pirates rule, which resemble those of the dark ages or before, or something more civilised.

This is somehwhat of a dichotomy because society needs the rule of law to exist, but the rule can cause society to turn to anarchy, I'm thinking the French revolution, but there are many examples.

Still, the rule of law is required for society to be civilised. I'll take your thinking that governments grant all rights, and work it backward. Instead we say all rights are complete and absolute, but it is the rule of law that limits the rights of people so as not to infringe on the rights of others. It is my right to have a loud party, but it is limited by your right to peace and quiet. But your right to peace and quiet has to be reasonable and consider others' enjoyment or the noise of commerce, (construction). If you want other examples of reasonable limitations of rights I'll give them, but hopefully this will suffice.

Centuries of English Common Law are based on the balance of rights. We have for centuries had the right to defend our possessions and property, often it was our duty, and I suppose that is why wives and childeren were considered property. Real property, i.e. real estate is a bit different, as we are tennants of land basically owned by the crown, but that gets into a different argument. We are entitled to defend it, but it can still be expropriated, wives and children cannot. Remember, wives could not be protected under prima nochta, they were not the property of the husband, if property could be defended at all at that time.

Before this degenerates ito a fight about what are rights, I'll state what rights are not; they are not anything that require an action, obligation or encumbrance by another party. Rights are freedoms employed solely by the individual and no one else. Much of what Canadian society, and others, consider rights are not rights at all, but ambitions, which require the actions of others.

Governments do not give rights, they take them away, sometimes supplanting pseudo rights in their stead. This gives the illusion of governments giving rights, they give rights to those who supposedly have none, this is political expediency, it gives power to the government. Many countries shoot people for speaking freely, a right that we used to have, a right taken away.

Again, rights are not given by government, they are taken away, a right not exercised is a right lost. It is time we come to realise that the government serves at the pleasure of the people, not the other way around, unless of course you like totalitarianism.
 
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Zzarchov

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Ah...fascist is it...I was wondering when that term would be thrown my way...:roll:

If you wish to believe this illusion that is of course your prerogative, but please bear in mind that our Charter of Rights and Freedoms contains the "Notwithstanding Clause" which would allow the government to suspend any right that you hold should the need arise.

Now, I hate to be finicky here


But you do realise that the Supremacy of the State is literally the definition of fascism right?

Throw aside the history of fascism and the evil its adherants of caused. Politically, you were literally talking about fascism.

Much like if you said that production belongs to the workers and private ownership of capital is wrong, and then I called you a communist it would not be as an insult it would be as a statement of fact.

Whether or not you want to use fascist principles for good or evil, the supremacy of the state over the individual is all that fascism means.


The more modern definition of Fascism has taken the word to mean Nazi's or militarism because those were the hallmarks of the most famous Fascist regimes,

This is similar to how the term "socialist" is now used because of the baggage with communism making people think of Stalin's death camps.


So when you espouse the supremacy of the state, you are following the original fascist ideology (from back when Fascist Italy was an enemy of National Socialist germany)
 

Vanni Fucci

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Again, rights are not given by government, they are taken away, a right not exercised is a right lost. It is time we come to realise that the government serves at the pleasure of the people, not the other way around, unless of course you like totalitarianism.

That was all very good and well thought out, and I appreciate that.

However, while I agree that the state does restrict rights, they at the same time are the only body that can grant them, as rights are a result of consensus, not individualism.

In order for a right to exist, that right must be recognized as such and laws must be drafted for upholding and enforcing them, otherwise it's just the incessant whining of individuals about how they've been wronged.

Before 1920 women in Canada did not have the right to vote for any office. A collective of women got together and voiced that they felt they should have that right. The government listened and the right was granted. If the government refused, then women would still not be allowed to vote. That right would not exist for them.

Even then though, women were restricted as to what offices they could vote for, and it was not until 1929 that a woman was recognized as a person by the government and able to hold a seat in the Senate.

Quebec granted unfettered voting rights to women in 1940, while the Canada restricted women's voting rights until 1950. Before this time, the right did not exist for a woman to vote in a federal election.
 

Vanni Fucci

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But you do realise that the Supremacy of the State is literally the definition of fascism right?

I prefer the term legal positivism.

Throw aside the history of fascism and the evil its adherants of caused. Politically, you were literally talking about fascism.

I'm not talking about politics at all...I'm talking about the rule of law and how you wouldn't have any rights without it.

So when you espouse the supremacy of the state, you are following the original fascist ideology (from back when Fascist Italy was an enemy of National Socialist germany)

I'm not espousing anything...I'm merely relating to you the legal realities of the society in which we live...if you consider Canadian society to be fascist then so be it...

Name one instance where someone in Canada has been able to exercise a right with impunity before it was recognized and granted as a right by an act of Parliament.
 

Zzarchov

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I prefer the term legal positivism.



I'm not talking about politics at all...I'm talking about the rule of law and how you wouldn't have any rights without it.



I'm not espousing anything...I'm merely relating to you the legal realities of the society in which we live...if you consider Canadian society to be fascist then so be it...

Name one instance where someone in Canada has been able to exercise a right with impunity before it was recognized and granted as a right by an act of Parliament.


All the time! People smoke pot with impunity, see anything the state decrees only matter if people with guns are willing to enforce those laws.

The state only has power if its recognized by people (At least those with force) and if there is a disagreement about those rights,

Say whether or not they own Manitoba, then you'll have two groups using force against each other. In that case, the state was proven to not be all powerful and backed the hell down from individuals.
 

Vanni Fucci

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All the time! People smoke pot with impunity, see anything the state decrees only matter if people with guns are willing to enforce those laws.

Smoking pot is not a right yet, and you can still be arrested for indulging with impunity.

The state only has power if its recognized by people

I don't deny this, and I never have...but at the same time, the people have no rights unless recognized by the state...
 

bobnoorduyn

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Nov 26, 2008
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That was all very good and well thought out, and I appreciate that.

However, while I agree that the state does restrict rights, they at the same time are the only body that can grant them, as rights are a result of consensus, not individualism.

In order for a right to exist, that right must be recognized as such and laws must be drafted for upholding and enforcing them, otherwise it's just the incessant whining of individuals about how they've been wronged.

Before 1920 women in Canada did not have the right to vote for any office. A collective of women got together and voiced that they felt they should have that right. The government listened and the right was granted. If the government refused, then women would still not be allowed to vote. That right would not exist for them.

Even then though, women were restricted as to what offices they could vote for, and it was not until 1929 that a woman was recognized as a person by the government and able to hold a seat in the Senate.

Quebec granted unfettered voting rights to women in 1940, while the Canada restricted women's voting rights until 1950. Before this time, the right did not exist for a woman to vote in a federal election.


Vanni; Let's not confuse diferent rights here, and how they came about. Women gained the rights to vote and and become "persons" because previously they had to be property in order to be protected by their husbands or fathers, they really had no legal protection other than that, and could be considered harlots without such protection. How long must we apologise for that?

The right to vote or participate in government is not a government given right, they fought for it, the government didn't give it to them, maybe I just think of it differently than you, but women were granted their due, finally. It is my strong belief that those who are governed must have a say in those who govern them, that is not a government given right, but our right which we must defend.

What has evolved is the law, from medieval times to now. Knowing the cyclical perisods of civilisation we can see how civilization progresses from bondage to freedom to bondage, and repeats itself. Our only hope is to prolong the freedom period. But again, we have to hold on to the rights we have, and hopefully get back the ones we lost.
 
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Vanni Fucci

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It is my strong belief that those who are governed must have a say in those who govern them, that is not a government given right, but our right which we must defend.

And that is my belief as well...however in Canada, the electoral process and the accountability of the government to the people was also granted by consensus and an act of Parliament. It's written into our Constitution, without that we would there would be no form of redress against government wrongs.
 

EagleSmack

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Were I a member of that community, I'd exercise my constitutional right to kick her in the face and disarm her...

Guns don't scare me, I've been around them most of my life, but people who feel the need to carry a gun do for protection do...and I would be irresonponsible if I were not to show them the error in their thinking...

Guns don't protect people, ensuring that you present no threat and reason to be kicked in the face does...

Since when is it a Constitutional Right to kick someone in the face and disarm them?
 

Tyr

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Nov 27, 2008
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To get back to the original post. Gun toting Mom divides community. If the community was comfortable for her to be walking around with a sidearm, we wouldn't be having this debate. Obviously they're not... even in handgun heaven USA.
 

Zzarchov

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Smoking pot is not a right yet, and you can still be arrested for indulging with impunity.



I don't deny this, and I never have...but at the same time, the people have no rights unless recognized by the state...

There is no such thing as a state, only a group of actual human beings, telling other human beings what to do.

The state tells you to do lots of things, like it said for a long time that Atheists could not raise children. No one listened, the "state" didn't have the power.

The "State" never gave a requirement that you need a lisence to operate a motor vehicle non-commercially (if you wanan get finnicky) , though try it and you'll get arrested.

Law and Order is people with guns telling you what to do. "The State" or "private individual" has nothing to do with it.
 

Colpy

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To get back to the original post. Gun toting Mom divides community. If the community was comfortable for her to be walking around with a sidearm, we wouldn't be having this debate. Obviously they're not... even in handgun heaven USA.

Oh well, that's a shame for the community..........she is simply exercising her right, and whether the community likes it or not is irrelevant......

And, in this case, whether rights exist aside from state recognition is irrelevant, as the US Supreme Court has recognized the right top keep and bear arms.