Gun Control is Completely Useless.

AnnaG

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Jul 5, 2009
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Changing attitudes towards firearms would be the best, and unfortunately, probably the least pragmatic and/or possible.
Unless one is military, police, conservation officer, etc. (authorized as a requirement of their job), one should have it in their head that shooting people is anti-social in the least and if they want to continue to "enjoy" the benefits of society, being anti-social is counter-productive to a healthy society.
Something worked in Switzerland, to mention one highly-armed culture, and I am pretty sure it is the Swiss' attitudes towards firearms. They definitely do NOT have a "laissez-faire" attitude towards guns, unlike our closest neighbours. Firearms-Control Legislation and Policy: Switzerland | Law Library of Congress
 

JamesBondo

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Mar 3, 2012
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1. A gun is a dangerous instrumentality.

BTW, great post but I have to slow you down a bit and take a look at one of your first comments.

"A gun is a dangerous instrumentality."

I have to disagree.

In strict liability cases, the situation in which something may cause damage, injury, or death on its own without human action or intention.Read more: What is dangerous instrumentality? definition and meaning

However, you didn't restrict your claim to legal definition and treatment. Thereby leaving your claim much more generic and ambiguous.

To me, I am inferring that you are claiming that the mere presence of firearms is directly and proportionately associated to criminal and/or accidental deaths. That - in the absence of all or nothing hypotheticals - you can statistically and meaningfully affect a change in criminal and/or accidental deaths merely by changing the general inventory count of firearms in a country.

Is this in fact something that you are implying? rather than yes or no, please clarify if possible.
 

Tecumsehsbones

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BTW, great post but I have to slow you down a bit and take a look at one of your first comments.

"A gun is a dangerous instrumentality."

I have to disagree.

In strict liability cases, the situation in which something may cause damage, injury, or death on its own without human action or intention.Read more: What is dangerous instrumentality? definition and meaning

However, you didn't restrict your claim to legal definition and treatment. Thereby leaving your claim much more generic and ambiguous.

To me, I am inferring that you are claiming that the mere presence of firearms is directly and proportionately associated to criminal and/or accidental deaths. That - in the absence of all or nothing hypotheticals - you can statistically and meaningfully affect a change in criminal and/or accidental deaths merely by changing the general inventory count of firearms in a country.

Is this in fact something that you are implying? rather than yes or no, please clarify if possible.
Yes, that is the gravamen of my claim, that if you sharply reduce the number of firearms in a country, you will significantly reduce the number of deaths in that country, particularly when that country has gun death tolls as high as the U.S. has.

I am fully aware that you will not eliminate suicides, homicides, and accidents by sharply limiting guns. I maintain, however, that you will reduce them substantially, more than half.

I will admit I don't have evidence for that. Any evidence I could present, like the 50% reduction in homicides in Australia after their gun ban, could be explained by the same factors that have led to a 50% reduction in violent crime in the U.S. in the same period, without a gun ban.

So I'll let it go with simple logic. Guns make killing easier. Therefore, a lack of guns makes killing harder. Therefore, fewer people will be killed.
 

bluebyrd35

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Aug 9, 2008
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OK, I'll participate in the debate, under certain conditions. Let's not be babbling about swimming pools, or ladders, or cars. Let's not be selectively quoting or creatively interpreting words written in the 18th century. In other words, if you want a straightforward debate about whether or not, or under what circumstances, private citizens should be allowed to own and carry firearms, that's a debate I'm willing to participate in, taking the anti-gun point of view, which I reiterate I oppose.

1. A gun is a dangerous instrumentality. Guns can kill people. For that matter, guns are purpose-designed to kill animals, including human beings. Guns are singularly effective in doing so, which is why every army in the world is equipped primarily with guns, rather than swords, bows and arrows, or axes.

2. Society, represented by the government, has the authority and duty to control the distribution and use of dangerous instrumentalities. This is why you cannot go into your local hardware store and buy dynamite over the counter. To be licensed to acquire and use dynamite, you have to prove that you have a legitimate purpose for doing so, and sufficient expertise to do so relatively safely. Same with cars. Despite the many, many positive, salutary, and necessary uses for cars, you are not free to just go buy one and drive it around. You must be licensed, and your car will be subject to a variety of regulations and controls for the safety of the public.

3. There are limited legitimate uses for guns. Hunting is legitimate. Target shooting is semi-legitimate, but falls more into the "because I feel like it" category than anything else. So, just as you cannot buy dynamite and blow it up in your backyard because you feel like it, the "target shooting" and "collecting" aspects of gun ownership are insufficient to justify complete freedom in owning them.

4. Another legitimate use of guns is defense of your home and person. Here I point out that generally the best gun for home defense is a shotgun.

5. In the U.S., guns kill approximately 33,000 people per year. Approximately one-third of those deaths are homicides, the remainder being suicides and accidents. 33,000 deaths per year are a sufficient cause for the state to take an interest in the public safety, and to regulate a dangerous instrumentality that causes 33,000 deaths per year.

Therefore, I recommend the following:

a. No one may acquire, possess, or carry any firearm without license from the state.

b. No one except agents of the state may acquire, possess handguns, which are responsible for the large majority of gun deaths per year, and have no legitimate purpose that cannot be served by a long gun.

c. No gun owned by a private citizen may hold more than six rounds of ammunition. I'd go with five, but six is traditional, many revolvers would have to be extensively modified to hold less than six, and the difference is minimal. No private citizen may own a firearm that is fed from a detachable, box magazine (commonly called a "clip") because the speed and ease with which such guns are reloaded facilitates mass shootings, and because it is vanishingly unlikely that hunting or home defense will be significantly facilitated by the ability to fire more than six rounds, or to reload quickly and easily. As I'm sure you're aware, it is generally illegal to hunt with more than three, or in some cases five, rounds in your gun, even if it can hold more. It's a safety measure.

d. No citizen may acquire, possess, or carry a gun without being licensed to do so. Licensure will involve a criminal and mental health background check, proficiency training and testing, and a test of the applicant's knowledge of the law of deadly force. Licenses must be renewed every four or five years, and can be rescinded by the licensing authority. If a license is rescinded, the licensee shall have an opportunity to argue against rescission before a neutral authority.

e. Every gun acquired or possessed legally must be registered with the police to aid in investigation and prosecution of crimes.

f. No private citizen shall be permitted to carry a gun in public, concealed or unconcealed, unless permitted to do so, such permission being for good cause shown and discretionary to the police.

g. Unregistered guns shall be contraband, with no property rights attached. Police may seize apparently unregistered guns without accompanying arrest or charges, and after a brief hearing on their status, all unregisterd guns shall be destroyed.

At at minimum, this will make killing harder. Accordingly, there should be fewer homicides, suicides, and accidents. The proposed system will allow for legitimate hunting and home defense.

I realize that some of these provisions seem mutually exclusive, like my "six rounds per gun" provision for handguns is mutually exclusive with my ban on handguns. In such cases, please assume that they are "in the alternative," i.e., a handgun ban with a backup that if handguns are not banned, they should be limited to six rounds.

Clearly, this ends the argument before it even starts. I don't think it can be seriously argued that minimizing guns in the manner I have outlined will reduce gun violence, and because deadly violence is so much harder without guns, will reduce deadly violence.

The only remaining question is "Is the ability to defend oneself outside the home, and the general freedom interest in owning guns, sufficient to allow their widespread, unregulated possession and carriage?" That question will be answered yes or no, and people aren't going to move off their answers. It's kinda like "Is abortion murder?" It's not really worth arguing, since you aren't going to change anybody's mind.
hmmm... There is nothing in your post, I have not said over and over again in a dozen different ways. What happened in your world to cause such a reversal of stance.
 

AnnaG

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Jul 5, 2009
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Funny. I heard that poison is quite efficient and much harder to detect and much harder to pinpoint suspects. It's easier to pack it around, as well. I also heard that the effect of a shortage of firearms on death stats is temporary. Seems Brits discovered that bladed instruments and clubs are/were pretty good at causing deaths and serious injuries, for instance.
There is a problem with practicality in the attempt at depriving citizens of their machinery, as well; criminals don't like following social policies and laws and other such things.
 

Tecumsehsbones

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hmmm... There is nothing in your post, I have not said over and over again in a dozen different ways. What happened in your world to cause such a reversal of stance.
I was calm, serious, and respectful. You're shrill, snarky, and not to put too fine an edge on it, a jerk.

And in case you didn't notice it the TWO TIMES I said it in the one post, I do not support the argument I'm making here. I'm just so frustrated at the inability of the anti-gunners to make a structured, reasonable argument that I decided to do it for y'all.

Funny. I heard that poison is quite efficient and much harder to detect and much harder to pinpoint suspects. It's easier to pack it around, as well. I also heard that the effect of a shortage of firearms on death stats is temporary. Seems Brits discovered that bladed instruments and clubs are/were pretty good at causing deaths and serious injuries, for instance.
There is a problem with practicality in the attempt at depriving citizens of their machinery, as well; criminals don't like following social policies and laws and other such things.
If "People will do it anyway" is a reason not to forbid something, we can just go ahead and burn the criminal code.
 

AnnaG

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If "People will do it anyway" is a reason not to forbid something, we can just go ahead and burn the criminal code.
I did not suggest anything as a reason for anything (except when I mentioned changing attitudes towards firearms). I simply pointed out problems with doing what you suggested.
 

Tecumsehsbones

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I did not suggest anything as a reason for anything (except when I mentioned changing attitudes towards firearms). I simply pointed out problems with doing what you suggested.
There certainly are problems. Did you notice that I suggested making guns contraband? That means the cops can seize them, no matter how they discover them, legitimate arrest, unlawful detention, illegal search, whatever. You have no rights in contraband.
 

Curious Cdn

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How about putting ludicrously large taxes on the ownership of handguns, so that they can be seized on sight. You have no rights in tax evasion.
 

Colpy

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1. A gun is a dangerous instrumentality. Guns can kill people. For that matter, guns are purpose-designed to kill animals, including human beings. Guns are singularly effective in doing so, which is why every army in the world is equipped primarily with guns, rather than swords, bows and arrows, or axes.

.

Yep.

There is a story about Tom Threepersons, a famous lawman in Canada and in the US southwest. It is said he carried a 1911 .45 Auto cocked and locked with the grip safety taped down. A bystander once challenged hin "Ain't that dangerous?" "Yep", replied Threepersons "Wouldn't be much good if it weren't"
 

AnnaG

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Jul 5, 2009
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Oh, my. No, I missed that. But then if that is true, then that would open up a whole new set of problems for government and police, both of which seem decidedly ineffective in the "wars against (name yer poison)". You may remember the Gliberal government's attempt at gun control and its marked failures. And their biggest thing was to try and force legitimate owners to register their weaponry, not even banning. I'd make a bet that there were proportionately more hidden firearms than were registered until the Cons reworked the laws n such. And crime went up, too, BTW.
 

Colpy

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OK, I'll participate in the debate, under certain conditions. Let's not be selectively quoting or creatively interpreting words written in the 18th century. In other words, if you want a straightforward debate about whether or not, or under what circumstances, private citizens should be allowed to own and carry firearms, that's a debate I'm willing to participate in, taking the anti-gun point of view, which I reiterate I oppose.

.

A little unfair, don't ya think? Considering the fact that the right to keep and bear is one of the most ancient rights, simply re-stated in your Bill of Rights. You entering the debate under this conditions is like agreeing to enter a chess match only if you get to remove your oponent's queen.......and rooks.
 

Tecumsehsbones

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Yep.

There is a story about Tom Threepersons, a famous lawman in Canada and in the US southwest. It is said he carried a 1911 .45 Auto cocked and locked with the grip safety taped down. A bystander once challenged hin "Ain't that dangerous?" "Yep", replied Threepersons "Wouldn't be much good if it weren't"
Thank you.

Like the question "Is that gun loaded?"

The correct answer: "What use is an unloaded gun?"

A little unfair, don't ya think? Considering the fact that the right to keep and bear is one of the most ancient rights, simply re-stated in your Bill of Rights. You entering the debate under this conditions is like agreeing to enter a chess match only if you get to remove your oponent's queen.......and rooks.
No, we're approaching this ab initio. I recognize the strength of tradition and the value of long-held rights, but since James wanted a reboot, I thought I'd start with the simplest, non-contextual argument. We can add in more factors later.

Oh, my. No, I missed that. But then if that is true, then that would open up a whole new set of problems for government and police, both of which seem decidedly ineffective in the "wars against (name yer poison)". You may remember the Gliberal government's attempt at gun control and its marked failures. And their biggest thing was to try and force legitimate owners to register their weaponry, not even banning. I'd make a bet that there were proportionately more hidden firearms than were registered until the Cons reworked the laws n such. And crime went up, too, BTW.
Oh, yes. Every solution raises a whole new set of problems. I am simply making the best case I can for the anti-gunners. For the sake of argument.

Ya gotta admit, it's better than the useless slagging back and forth that has been far too much of this thread.
 

taxslave

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Nov 25, 2008
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hmmm... There is nothing in your post, I have not said over and over again in a dozen different ways. What happened in your world to cause such a reversal of stance.

And with your noted lack of cognitive skills misinterpreted. He is playing devils advocate here. While you actually believe what you write.
 

bluebyrd35

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Aug 9, 2008
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I was calm, serious, and respectful. You're shrill, snarky, and not to put too fine an edge on it, a jerk.

And in case you didn't notice it the TWO TIMES I said it in the one post, I do not support the argument I'm making here. I'm just so frustrated at the inability of the anti-gunners to make a structured, reasonable argument that I decided to do it for y'all.


If "People will do it anyway" is a reason not to forbid something, we can just go ahead and burn the criminal code.
Shrill, snarky?? Really......so you hear what I write??

A little unfair, don't ya think? Considering the fact that the right to keep and bear is one of the most ancient rights, simply re-stated in your Bill of Rights. You entering the debate under this conditions is like agreeing to enter a chess match only if you get to remove your oponent's queen.......and rooks.
Yeah like keeping slaves, and polygamy!!
 

JamesBondo

House Member
Mar 3, 2012
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Yes, that is the gravamen of my claim, that if you sharply reduce the number of firearms in a country, you will significantly reduce the number of deaths in that country, particularly when that country has gun death tolls as high as the U.S. has.

I am fully aware that you will not eliminate suicides, homicides, and accidents by sharply limiting guns. I maintain, however, that you will reduce them substantially, more than half.

I will admit I don't have evidence for that. Any evidence I could present, like the 50% reduction in homicides in Australia after their gun ban, could be explained by the same factors that have led to a 50% reduction in violent crime in the U.S. in the same period, without a gun ban.



Do you have any examples to support your case?

We need to consider that Obama has the country paranoid that they are going to lose their firearms. Firearms sales are through the roof. America has never owned as many firearms as it does today. Yet, the country is enjoying an ever decreasing rate of firearms crime and accidents. This suggests that there is something other than gun inventory that is driving the rates. And, it also suggests that if there is a cause and affect relationship, one would have to conclude that the increase of inventory is bringing crime down.

In Australia, it is true that their gun crime rates went down after the infamous 'gun buybacks'. But are you aware that their inventory of guns have already bounced back to the original numbers( not to be confused with per capita because the pop has increased), and yet the crime rates did not bounce back with the inventory. This suggests that something other than the gun inventory in Australia was driving their crime problem.

Furthermore,in Canada, there has been a handgun registry for over 80 years, the inventory of handguns has been going down, not up. yet, the rate of handgun deaths is rising and it stands in direct defiance to the claim that reducing inventory reduces crime.

So I'll let it go with simple logic. Guns make killing easier. Therefore, a lack of guns makes killing harder. Therefore, fewer people will be killed.

Simple logic is a valid debating point. The goal is to make the logic so simple, everyone is led to believe that it must be true.

Unfortunately, simple logic falls apart when there are examples that contradict it. The examples don't even have to be conclusive, to merely demonstrate that the appropriate logic is not simple is enough to counter the simple logic. Then it boils down to who has the most supporting argument. or which is most reasonable and believable? imo, the guy with examples, of course.
 
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taxslave

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Do you have any examples to support your case?

W need to consider that Obama has the country paranoid that they are going to lose their firearms. Firearms sales are through the roof. America has never owned as many firearms as it does today. Yet, the country is enjoying an ever decreasing rate of firearms crime and accidents. This suggests that there is something other than gun inventory that is driving the rates. And, it also suggests that if there is a cause and affect relationship, on would have to conclude that the increase of inventory is bringing crime down.




He is trying to make a case for the anti gun nutters. Facts and proof are not necessary for thir cause.