Gun Control is Completely Useless.

[Colpy]

Delete

I just offered a truce, and I am willing to live by it if you are. Calling me an idiot is not keeping by a truce. I wrote that Canadians do not fear Canadian governments like Americans fear US governments. You responded, "Anyone who doesn't fear gov't is a fool." Maybe this is why you don't think you started unpleasantness with me first? You think this kind of reply, calling somebody a fool, is acceptable, yet you are hyper-sensitive when someone contradicts your positions. I am going to move on and interpret the above as simply saying that you disagree about not fearing government. Your position in this respect is fair as far as it goes, I just don't completely agree. If you keep name calling, the gloves will have to come back off. Is that fair?

As to fearing government, I think I understand your position. I fear the US government. I think the US is one of the the most dangerous, unprincipled, war mongering nations on earth. I am not necessarily concerned that America will invade Canada and kill me, although I believe that is possible. My fear is that through its war mongering the US will start a war that will threaten/harm/kill my family, either before or after I die.



The url for my source is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate. The figures are deaths per 1,000 of population (which you seem to have gathered). My apologies. I googled “world shooting statistics”.

As long as you are going to demand that I produce a source when I cite statistics, do you have a source for your position that Canada's murder rate is currently 1.6 per 100,000, and the US had a rate of 4.7 per 100,000 in 2011? My quote is for all shooting deaths, not just murder. Just “murder” could mean just pre-meditated first degree murder, and eliminates all accidents and other non-homicides. My reference is to all homicides – shooting deaths of human beings.

The post was written before any truce.


Look at the times. The post was written before any truce.

Using "firearms death rate" is incredibly misleading.....it is simply a method of propaganda for gun controllers.

For instance, U.S. gun deaths are greatly inflated by suicide, which accounts for 60% of all US gun deaths. Yet the suicide rate of Canada and the US is moderate...........and roughly the same. Considering Canada's tough gun control, this indicates clearly that if a suicidal person does not have a gun, they find a bridge.....and gun control saves no lives.

Likewise "gun homicides". They completely ignore the fact that you can kill with any number of implements, and that to prove gun control works, you need to show that people set on murder do not simply switch to other weapons. If guns are a major factor in murder rates, then the USA should have the worst murder rate on earth, by a factor of almost two.





Compare the following tables. Notice the world average murder rate is 6.9 per 100,000................

List of countries by intentional homicide rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Number of guns per capita by country - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Take the top 15 gun owning countries:

1. United States: 94.3 guns per 100 people, Murder Rate 4.8 per 100,000

2. Serbia: 58.2 guns per 100 people, Murder Rate 1.2 per 100,000

3. Yemen: 54.8 guns per 100 people, Murder Rate 4.2 per 100,000

4. Switzerland: 45.7 guns per 100 people, Murder Rate 0.7 per 100,000

5. Finland: 45.3 guns per 100 people, Murder Rate 2.2 per 100,000

6. Cyprus: 36.1 guns per 100 people, Murder Rate 1.7 per 100,000

7. Saudi Arabia: 35.0 guns per 100 people, Murder Rate 1.0 per 100,000

8. Iraq: 34.2 guns per 100 people, Murder Rate 2.0 per 100,000

9. Uruguay: 31.8 guns per 100 people, Murder Rate 5.9 per 100,000

10 Sweden: 31.6 guns per 100 people, Murder Rate 1.0 per 100,000

11. Norway: 31.3 guns per 100 people, Murder Rate 0.6 per 100,000

12. France: 31.2 guns per 100 people, Murder Rate 1.1 per 100,000

13. Canada: 30.8 guns per 100 people, Murder Rate 1.6 per 100,000

14. Austria: 30.4 guns per 100 people, Murder Rate 0.6 per 100,000

15. Germany: 30.3 guns per 100 people, Murder Rate 0.8 per 100,000

NOT ONE has the average murder rate of 6.9 per 100,000. Not even close. Three of the most armed countries are in the TOP 15 for the lowest murder rates on earth.

The conclusion is obvious. There is NO correlation between firearms ownership and murder rates. Indeed, one could make a case that there is a negative correlation.....the countries with the most guns in the hands of citizens enjoy much LOWER murder rates than average.

 

[JLM]

Delete





The post was written before any truce.


Look at the times. The post was written before any truce.

Using "firearms death rate" is incredibly misleading.....it is simply a method of propaganda for gun controllers.

For instance, U.S. gun deaths are greatly inflated by suicide, which accounts for 60% of all US gun deaths. Yet the suicide rate of Canada and the US is moderate...........and roughly the same. Considering Canada's tough gun control, this indicates clearly that if a suicidal person does not have a gun, they find a bridge.....and gun control saves no lives.

Likewise "gun homicides". They completely ignore the fact that you can kill with any number of implements, and that to prove gun control works, you need to show that people set on murder do not simply switch to other weapons. If guns are a major factor in murder rates, then the USA should have the worst murder rate on earth, by a factor of almost two.



[/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR]

Compare the following tables. Notice the world average murder rate is 6.9 per 100,000................

List of countries by intentional homicide rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Number of guns per capita by country - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Take the top 15 gun owning countries:

1. United States: 94.3 guns per 100 people, Murder Rate 4.8 per 100,000

2. Serbia: 58.2 guns per 100 people, Murder Rate 1.2 per 100,000

3. Yemen: 54.8 guns per 100 people, Murder Rate 4.2 per 100,000

4. Switzerland: 45.7 guns per 100 people, Murder Rate 0.7 per 100,000

5. Finland: 45.3 guns per 100 people, Murder Rate 2.2 per 100,000

6. Cyprus: 36.1 guns per 100 people, Murder Rate 1.7 per 100,000

7. Saudi Arabia: 35.0 guns per 100 people, Murder Rate 1.0 per 100,000

8. Iraq: 34.2 guns per 100 people, Murder Rate 2.0 per 100,000

9. Uruguay: 31.8 guns per 100 people, Murder Rate 5.9 per 100,000

10 Sweden: 31.6 guns per 100 people, Murder Rate 1.0 per 100,000

11. Norway: 31.3 guns per 100 people, Murder Rate 0.6 per 100,000

12. France: 31.2 guns per 100 people, Murder Rate 1.1 per 100,000

13. Canada: 30.8 guns per 100 people, Murder Rate 1.6 per 100,000

14. Austria: 30.4 guns per 100 people, Murder Rate 0.6 per 100,000

15. Germany: 30.3 guns per 100 people, Murder Rate 0.8 per 100,000

NOT ONE has the average murder rate of 6.9 per 100,000. Not even close. Three of the most armed countries are in the TOP 15 for the lowest murder rates on earth.

The conclusion is obvious. There is NO correlation between firearms ownership and murder rates. Indeed, one could make a case that there is a negative correlation.....the countries with the most guns in the hands of citizens enjoy much LOWER murder rates than average.

I think those statistics adequately prove what you and I know to be correct and at this juncture perhaps it's a good time to close the thread and go on to discussing other issues. It was an excellent thread but has run its course. -

 

[tober]

Delete

The post was written before any truce.

Look at the times. The post was written before any truce.

Using "firearms death rate" is incredibly misleading.....it is simply a method of propaganda for gun controllers.

For instance, U.S. gun deaths are greatly inflated by suicide, which accounts for 60% of all US gun deaths. Yet the suicide rate of Canada and the US is moderate...........and roughly the same. Considering Canada's tough gun control, this indicates clearly that if a suicidal person does not have a gun, they find a bridge.....and gun control saves no lives.

Likewise "gun homicides". They completely ignore the fact that you can kill with any number of implements, and that to prove gun control works, you need to show that people set on murder do not simply switch to other weapons. If guns are a major factor in murder rates, then the USA should have the worst murder rate on earth, by a factor of almost two.

Compare the following tables. Notice the world average murder rate is 6.9 per 100,000................

List of countries by intentional homicide rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Number of guns per capita by country - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Take the top 15 gun owning countries:

1. United States: 94.3 guns per 100 people, Murder Rate 4.8 per 100,000

2. Serbia: 58.2 guns per 100 people, Murder Rate 1.2 per 100,000

3. Yemen: 54.8 guns per 100 people, Murder Rate 4.2 per 100,000

4. Switzerland: 45.7 guns per 100 people, Murder Rate 0.7 per 100,000

5. Finland: 45.3 guns per 100 people, Murder Rate 2.2 per 100,000

6. Cyprus: 36.1 guns per 100 people, Murder Rate 1.7 per 100,000

7. Saudi Arabia: 35.0 guns per 100 people, Murder Rate 1.0 per 100,000

8. Iraq: 34.2 guns per 100 people, Murder Rate 2.0 per 100,000

9. Uruguay: 31.8 guns per 100 people, Murder Rate 5.9 per 100,000

10 Sweden: 31.6 guns per 100 people, Murder Rate 1.0 per 100,000

11. Norway: 31.3 guns per 100 people, Murder Rate 0.6 per 100,000

12. France: 31.2 guns per 100 people, Murder Rate 1.1 per 100,000

13. Canada: 30.8 guns per 100 people, Murder Rate 1.6 per 100,000

14. Austria: 30.4 guns per 100 people, Murder Rate 0.6 per 100,000

15. Germany: 30.3 guns per 100 people, Murder Rate 0.8 per 100,000

NOT ONE has the average murder rate of 6.9 per 100,000. Not even close. Three of the most armed countries are in the TOP 15 for the lowest murder rates on earth.

The conclusion is obvious. There is NO correlation between firearms ownership and murder rates. Indeed, one could make a case that there is a negative correlation.....the countries with the most guns in the hands of citizens enjoy much LOWER murder rates than average.

You have not supplied a single authority to support your figures. No offence to you, but the NRA makes its living making up false and misleading statistics. I haven't the time now, but I will look for other figures. My comparisons are first world to first world. I do not think comparisons the third world are a valid comparison for this argument.

Strictly focusing on "murder" is not appropriate because it is too subjective a term. It leaves out all the wounding statistics which are just as much of a threat to society.

Of course people are part of the equation. America, whose violence rates are the cause of the ongoing gun debates, is culturally more violent than any other First World nation. That is part of the problem that Canadian anti-gun people do not understand. But American gun proliferation is a big part of the problem. Canada does not have a gun problem.

 

[EagleSmack]

What a retard.

The rest of the world does not hate us the way it hates Americans. .

The Canadian need to be loved... lol.

[/FONT]

You have not supplied a single authority to support your figures. No offence to you, but the NRA makes its living making up false and misleading statistics. I haven't the time now, but I will look for other figures. My comparisons are first world to first world. I do not think comparisons the third world are a valid comparison for this argument.

Painful reading eh?

 

[Colpy]

[/FONT]

You have not supplied a single authority to support your figures. No offence to you, but the NRA makes its living making up false and misleading statistics. I haven't the time now, but I will look for other figures. My comparisons are first world to first world. I do not think comparisons the third world are a valid comparison for this argument.

Strictly focusing on "murder" is not appropriate because it is too subjective a term. It leaves out all the wounding statistics which are just as much of a threat to society.

Of course people are part of the equation. America, whose violence rates are the cause of the ongoing gun debates, is culturally more violent than any other First World nation. That is part of the problem that Canadian anti-gun people do not understand. But American gun proliferation is a big part of the problem. Canada does not have a gun problem.



]

Tober, I did the research myself.

I don't need anyone else to filter it for me. That is the point.

Think for yourself. Do the math.

There is NO excuse for cherry picking stats. The world figures are the only fair and unbiased ones. It is a simple exercise. If guns cause murder, then the murder rate in countries with more guns will be higher. And that is simply not the case.

Simple.

To the point.

BTW, in almost 40 years looking at stats, I have never ONCE caught the NRA falsifying statistics. Perhaps you could give me an example of this thing they do so often??

The other side, however, consistently lies and misleads by cherry picking, framing their stats in irrelevant ways, and continuing to use stats long since debunked.

Ever hear of Dr. Kellerman?? The guy that did research for the CDC that found "You are 43 times more apt to kill a friend or family member than a criminal if you keep a handgun for defense.". That stat?? You've heard that, haven't you??

Kellerman was debunked decades ago. The CDC refused him further funding, because him simply eliminated stats that didn't agree with his ideas, and defined "acquantance" so loosely that two members of opposing gangs that killed each other went into that slot.....in other words, his methodology was shown to be extremely faulty, and his conclusions a joke.

But Wendy Cukier and the Coalition for Gun Control still cite him.

Oh, and 98% of Americans want tougher background laws?? There is another one you have undoubtedly heard. ABSOLUTE BALONEY. Stats invented by those that want to take away rights.

Guns

But I have yet to catch the NRA lying.




Tober:

A little more research..................just to play the game your way. You still lose.

Human Development Index - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Countries on the VERY HIGH DEVELOPMENT INDEX with murder rates worse than that in the USA:

Seychelles: 5.4 guns per 100 people, murder rate 8.3 per 100,000

Lithuania: 0.7 guns per 100 people, murder rate 6.6 per 100,000

Barbadoes: 7.8 guns per 100 people, murder rate 11.3 per 100,000

Estonia: 9.2 guns per 100 people, murder rate 5.2 per 100,000.

I told you. Gun control freaks lie constantly.

"The USA has the worst murder rate in the developed world" Baloney. Just more lies. They can't even cherry pick the stats enough to make it work in their favour.

List of countries by intentional homicide rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Number of guns per capita by country - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[EagleSmack]

Tober, I did the research myself.

I don't need anyone else to filter it for me. That is the point.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_guns_per_capita_by_country

But it doesn't the research doesn't say what he wants it to say.

 

[Colpy]

British hero of the mall massacre: Ex Royal Marine with a handgun saved 100 lives as terrorists ran amok | Mail Online

 

[Tecumsehsbones]

British hero of the mall massacre: Ex Royal Marine with a handgun saved 100 lives as terrorists ran amok | Mail Online

Don't sound like him having a gun had anything to do with it.

 

[Colpy]

Don't sound like him having a gun had anything to do with it.

Yeah, I don't think he engaged the terrorists, that is true.

Although having the ability to do so may well have encouraged his repeated forays into the mall.

Either way, the guy has giant cojones.

 

[Tecumsehsbones]

Yeah, I don't think he engaged the terrorists, that is true.

Although having the ability to do so may well have encouraged his repeated forays into the mall.

Either way, the guy has giant cojones.

Yep, not trying to take anything away from him, just like to think he'd have done the same if all he had in his waistband was the tag of his Fruit of the Looms.

Guns don't make you braver, or smarter, or better. Just more effective at certain things.

Which is nothing to sneeze at. Gun's a tool, just like a hammer. Only louder, and longer-range.

 

[tober]

Delete

The post was written before any truce.

Look at the times. The post was written before any truce.

Using "firearms death rate" is incredibly misleading.....it is simply a method of propaganda for gun controllers.

For instance, U.S. gun deaths are greatly inflated by suicide, which accounts for 60% of all US gun deaths. Yet the suicide rate of Canada and the US is moderate...........and roughly the same. Considering Canada's tough gun control, this indicates clearly that if a suicidal person does not have a gun, they find a bridge.....and gun control saves no lives.

Likewise "gun homicides". They completely ignore the fact that you can kill with any number of implements, and that to prove gun control works, you need to show that people set on murder do not simply switch to other weapons. If guns are a major factor in murder rates, then the USA should have the worst murder rate on earth, by a factor of almost two.


Compare the following tables. Notice the world average murder rate is 6.9 per 100,000................

List of countries by intentional homicide rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Number of guns per capita by country - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Take the top 15 gun owning countries:

1. United States: 94.3 guns per 100 people, Murder Rate 4.8 per 100,000

2. Serbia: 58.2 guns per 100 people, Murder Rate 1.2 per 100,000

3. Yemen: 54.8 guns per 100 people, Murder Rate 4.2 per 100,000

4. Switzerland: 45.7 guns per 100 people, Murder Rate 0.7 per 100,000

5. Finland: 45.3 guns per 100 people, Murder Rate 2.2 per 100,000

6. Cyprus: 36.1 guns per 100 people, Murder Rate 1.7 per 100,000

7. Saudi Arabia: 35.0 guns per 100 people, Murder Rate 1.0 per 100,000

8. Iraq: 34.2 guns per 100 people, Murder Rate 2.0 per 100,000

9. Uruguay: 31.8 guns per 100 people, Murder Rate 5.9 per 100,000

10 Sweden: 31.6 guns per 100 people, Murder Rate 1.0 per 100,000

11. Norway: 31.3 guns per 100 people, Murder Rate 0.6 per 100,000

12. France: 31.2 guns per 100 people, Murder Rate 1.1 per 100,000

13. Canada: 30.8 guns per 100 people, Murder Rate 1.6 per 100,000

14. Austria: 30.4 guns per 100 people, Murder Rate 0.6 per 100,000

15. Germany: 30.3 guns per 100 people, Murder Rate 0.8 per 100,000

NOT ONE has the average murder rate of 6.9 per 100,000. Not even close. Three of the most armed countries are in the TOP 15 for the lowest murder rates on earth.

The conclusion is obvious. There is NO correlation between firearms ownership and murder rates. Indeed, one could make a case that there is a negative correlation.....the countries with the most guns in the hands of citizens enjoy much LOWER murder rates than average.

Many of the countries in your list above are an unrealistic comparison for this topic. We are studying crimes. Crimes are a very culturally sensitive study. Something that is a crime in Saudi Arabia or Yemen might not be a crime in Canada (such as owning a Bible). I don't think comparing Islamic Third World countries in a discussion about western gun cultures is accurate. The following, except where otherwise indicated, is taken from the same website you got your list from. I have posted the url with my arguments.

Gun Homicides And Gun Ownership By Country 2007​

http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2012/jul/22/gun-homicides-ownership-world-list

Edited – 10 countries named.

Country​

% of homicides by firearm​

Number of homicides by firearm​

Homicide by firearm rate per 100,000 pop​

Average total all civilian firearms ​

​

Population​

(to the nearest million - this column is not from the original chart)​

​

Belgium

39.5 ​

70 ​

0.68 ​

1,800,000 ​

11,000,000​

Canada

32 ​

173 ​

0.51 ​

9,950,000 ​

33,000,000​

Denmark

31.9 ​

15 ​

0.27 ​

650,000 ​

6,000,000​

England and Wales

6.6 ​

41 ​

0.07 ​

3,400,000 ​

63,000,000​

France

9.6 ​

35 ​

0.06 ​

19,000,000 ​

65,000,000​

Germany

26.3 ​

158 ​

0.19 ​

25,000,000 ​

82,000,000​

Netherlands

30.7 ​

55 ​

0.33 ​

510,000 ​

17,000,000​

Norway

8.1 ​

2 ​

0.05 ​

1,400,000 ​

5,000,000​

Sweden

33.9 ​

37 ​

0.41 ​

2,800,000 ​

9,000,000​

United States

60 ​

9,146 ​

2.97 ​

270,000,000 ​

304,000,000​

http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2012/jul/22/gun-homicides-ownership-world-list

Country​

Average firearms per 100 people (from the original chart)​

​

Belgium

17.2 ​

Canada

30.8 ​

Denmark

12 ​

England and Wales

6.2 ​

France

31.2 ​

Germany

30.3 ​

Netherlands

3.9 ​

Norway

31.3 ​

Sweden

31.6 ​

United States

88.8 ​

The list has been pared down to ten countries to permit a manageable cultural comparison. The population column was added by me and is not in the original. All ten countries are of European or European cultural origins, predominantly Caucasian, western industrial democracies. All have western consumer cultures. In other words all countries are culturally similar. All are considered among the free western democracies. All have approximately the same standards of living compared to the biggest percentage of the world which is poverty-ridden. I added the population numbers from the Internet, although I was forced to go to several different sources.

In 2007 the US had 9,146 shooting homicides. The demographic levelling figure is the number of firearm homicides per 100,000 people. That number is 2.97/100,000 for America. The average of the other nine countries is only 0.29/100,000. In terms of straight shootings the US out kills the total number of all others combined by 16 to 1. In terms of numbers per 100,000, with an average of 0.29 for all but America and 2.97 for America the US out-kills the others by a factor of 10 to one.

Another demographic levelling figure is number of guns per 100,000 population. The average is 21.6 for Canada and the Western Europeans. The US average is 88.8. The differential is over 4 to 1.

The only figure left to analyse is populations. The total of the European and Canadian populations is 291 million. The US population is 304 million. The Canadian/Euro population is 96% of the US population. Raw numbers killed in America are 16 to 1 compared to the rest, and 10 to 1 comparing numbers dead per 100,000 of population.

This study measures only homicides. No definition is given for the homicides in the chart at http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2012/jul/22/gun-homicides-ownership-world-list. On one site (http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur-crime-murders) “murder” is defined as the number of convictions for intentional homicides in the given year. In any event, I argue that “homicides” is an unrealistic measurement because it excludes all people who were shot but did not die. If the definition is used that insists on a conviction to define it, that is also unrealistic because many shooters are never caught, and of those who are many are not convicted of murder for a variety of reasons. Those killings are not included in the count, even though (for example) a victim found dead in a back alley with his pockets turned inside out and a bullet in his head is probably a murder.

This argument does not attempt to correlate the numbers of guns to explain the excessive number of shootings in America. I leave the numbers to speak for themselves. Compared to Canada and eight others, America shot and killed 16 times as many people in 2007 even though the population of the non-American countries was 96% of that of America. How many US shootings were there that did not result in death? Over 200,000 according to one figure that I mentioned in another post.

I argue from these figures that:

1. America has more guns in raw numbers and on a population basis in comparison to the other countries of similar culture.

2. With only 4% more population and 16X the killing rate of countries of similar cultures and politics, America has a gun problem compared to Canada and the others.

3. Whether or not excessive numbers of guns cause more shootings, if a country’s killing-by-gunfire rate is already 16X the rate of other countries with the same culture, a public safety issue surrounding guns probably exists.

4. If adding more guns to the milieu was an effective answer, America would have the lowest per 100,000 casualty list and be the safest country from gun violence of the countries in the chart.

5. If a public safety issue exists, some more effective gun control method is necessary if Americans wish to live in a gun safety environment more like Canada and Western Europe.

6. In comparison to America, Canada is safe and does not need more gun laws or stricter gun control.

 

[tober]

I'll rephrase that for you. ANY CANADIAN THAT DOESN'T FEAR CANADIAN GOVERNMENT IS AN IDIOT.

The above post sounds word for word like something written by a US Republican. I am not saying Canadians should trust Canadian bureaucrats or politicians. But neither should we attack the government like Americans. We are different and starting that kind of attitude isn't going to make anybody's life better.

 

[Colpy]

[/FONT]

Many of the countries in your list above are an unrealistic comparison for this topic. We are studying crimes. Crimes are a very culturally sensitive study. Something that is a crime in Saudi Arabia or Yemen might not be a crime in Canada (such as owning a Bible). I don't think comparing Islamic Third World countries in a discussion about western gun cultures is accurate. The following, except where otherwise indicated, is taken from the same website you got your list from. I have posted the url with my arguments.

Gun Homicides And Gun Ownership By Country 2007​

http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2012/jul/22/gun-homicides-ownership-world-list

Edited – 10 countries named.

Country


% of homicides by firearm


Number of homicides by firearm


Homicide by firearm rate per 100,000 pop


Average total all civilian firearms ​

Population


(to the nearest million - this column is not from the original chart)​

Belgium

39.5


70


0.68


1,800,000


11,000,000​

Canada

32


173


0.51


9,950,000


33,000,000​

Denmark

31.9


15


0.27


650,000


6,000,000​

England and Wales

6.6


41


0.07


3,400,000


63,000,000​

France

9.6


35


0.06


19,000,000


65,000,000​

Germany

26.3


158


0.19


25,000,000


82,000,000​

Netherlands

30.7


55


0.33


510,000


17,000,000​

Norway

8.1


2


0.05


1,400,000


5,000,000​

Sweden

33.9


37


0.41


2,800,000


9,000,000​

United States

60


9,146


2.97


270,000,000


304,000,000​

http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2012/jul/22/gun-homicides-ownership-world-list

Country


Average firearms per 100 people (from the original chart)​

Belgium

17.2 ​

Canada

30.8 ​

Denmark

12 ​

England and Wales

6.2 ​

France

31.2 ​

Germany

30.3 ​

Netherlands

3.9 ​

Norway

31.3 ​

Sweden

31.6 ​

United States

88.8 ​

The list has been pared down to ten countries to permit a manageable cultural comparison. The population column was added by me and is not in the original. All ten countries are of European or European cultural origins, predominantly Caucasian, western industrial democracies. All have western consumer cultures. In other words all countries are culturally similar. All are considered among the free western democracies. All have approximately the same standards of living compared to the biggest percentage of the world which is poverty-ridden. I added the population numbers from the Internet, although I was forced to go to several different sources.

In 2007 the US had 9,146 shooting homicides. The demographic levelling figure is the number of firearm homicides per 100,000 people. That number is 2.97/100,000 for America. The average of the other nine countries is only 0.29/100,000. In terms of straight shootings the US out kills the total number of all others combined by 16 to 1. In terms of numbers per 100,000, with an average of 0.29 for all but America and 2.97 for America the US out-kills the others by a factor of 10 to one.

Another demographic levelling figure is number of guns per 100,000 population. The average is 21.6 for Canada and the Western Europeans. The US average is 88.8. The differential is over 4 to 1.

The only figure left to analyse is populations. The total of the European and Canadian populations is 291 million. The US population is 304 million. The Canadian/Euro population is 96% of the US population. Raw numbers killed in America are 16 to 1 compared to the rest, and 10 to 1 comparing numbers dead per 100,000 of population.

This study measures only homicides. No definition is given for the homicides in the chart at http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2012/jul/22/gun-homicides-ownership-world-list. On one site (http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur-crime-murders) “murder” is defined as the number of convictions for intentional homicides in the given year. In any event, I argue that “homicides” is an unrealistic measurement because it excludes all people who were shot but did not die. If the definition is used that insists on a conviction to define it, that is also unrealistic because many shooters are never caught, and of those who are many are not convicted of murder for a variety of reasons. Those killings are not included in the count, even though (for example) a victim found dead in a back alley with his pockets turned inside out and a bullet in his head is probably a murder.

This argument does not attempt to correlate the numbers of guns to explain the excessive number of shootings in America. I leave the numbers to speak for themselves. Compared to Canada and eight others, America shot and killed 16 times as many people in 2007 even though the population of the non-American countries was 96% of that of America. How many US shootings were there that did not result in death? Over 200,000 according to one figure that I mentioned in another post.

I argue from these figures that:

1. America has more guns in raw numbers and on a population basis in comparison to the other countries of similar culture.

2. With only 4% more population and 16X the killing rate of countries of similar cultures and politics, America has a gun problem compared to Canada and the others.

3. Whether or not excessive numbers of guns cause more shootings, if a country’s killing-by-gunfire rate is already 16X the rate of other countries with the same culture, a public safety issue surrounding guns probably exists.

4. If adding more guns to the milieu was an effective answer, America would have the lowest per 100,000 casualty list and be the safest country from gun violence of the countries in the chart.

5. If a public safety issue exists, some more effective gun control method is necessary if Americans wish to live in a gun safety environment more like Canada and Western Europe.

6. In comparison to America, Canada is safe and does not need more gun laws or stricter gun control.

So, in essence what you are saying isthat when compared to all the countries with a murder rate lower than the United States, the United States has the highest murder rate.



Now THAT is what I call cherry-picking.

BTW, something I always want to ask those who wish to cherry pick countries this way: what is it about the countries you eliminate that makes them not suitable for comparison??

Is it because they are not white??

Or is it because they are poor??

Or both??

I am just curious....I want to know if that line of reasoning is racist, elitist, or both.

AND, as I have pointed out 100 times, using firearms homicide rates is absolutely dishonest. If guns cause murder, the prevalence of guns in a society will have an effect on the overall murder rate.....and some of the countries with the highest gun ownership on earth are among those with the lowest murder rates.

You have not got a leg to stand on.

The above post sounds word for word like something written by a US Republican. I am not saying Canadians should trust Canadian bureaucrats or politicians. But neither should we attack the government like Americans. We are different and starting that kind of attitude isn't going to make anybody's life better.

Governments are the cause of perpetrator of the vast majority of murder.

They should never be trusted.

 

[Tecumsehsbones]

So, in essence what you are saying isthat when compared to all the countries with a murder rate lower than the United States, the United States has the highest murder rate.



Now THAT is what I call cherry-picking.

BTW, something I always want to ask those who wish to cherry pick countries this way: what is it about the countries you eliminate that makes them not suitable for comparison??

Is it because they are not white??

Or is it because they are poor??

Or both??

I am just curious....I want to know if that line of reasoning is racist, elitist, or both.

AND, as I have pointed out 100 times, using firearms homicide rates is absolutely dishonest. If guns cause murder, the prevalence of guns in a society will have an effect on the overall murder rate.....and some of the countries with the highest gun ownership on earth are among those with the lowest murder rates.

You have not got a leg to stand on.

I kinda liked how he gently elided from "similar culture" to "the same culture" as he warmed up to his argument.

Interesting how, in addition to homicide rates in countries as you mention, there is no correlation between gun ownership and homicide among states of the U.S. Maryland has some of the strictest gun laws in the country, and about twice the murder rate of Virginia, a state of similar size that shares a border, and has very permissive gun laws.

 

[pgs]

[/FONT]

You have not supplied a single authority to support your figures. No offence to you, but the NRA makes its living making up false and misleading statistics. I haven't the time now, but I will look for other figures. My comparisons are first world to first world. I do not think comparisons the third world are a valid comparison for this argument.

Strictly focusing on "murder" is not appropriate because it is too subjective a term. It leaves out all the wounding statistics which are just as much of a threat to society.

Of course people are part of the equation. America, whose violence rates are the cause of the ongoing gun debates, is culturally more violent than any other First World nation. That is part of the problem that Canadian anti-gun people do not understand. But American gun proliferation is a big part of the problem. Canada does not have a gun problem.



[/FONT][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR][/COLOR][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR][/COLOR][/FONT][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR]

Canada does not have a gun problem?
Tell that to the person murdered in Surrey this weekend.
I am sure the weapon was a registered rifle.

 

[EagleSmack]

Canada does not have a gun problem?
Tell that to the person murdered in Surrey this weekend.
I am sure the weapon was a registered rifle.

Murders in Canada using guns must be ignored. It doesn't fit well into his argument.

 

[Tecumsehsbones]

Murders in Canada using guns must be ignored. It doesn't fit well into his argument.

Guy was stabbed to death in Virginia. Guess we got a knife problem.

I recommend a strict programme of knife control.

 

[Colpy]

Violent Crime at 42 Year Low | The Bang Switch

 

[petros]

It's safer than ever to play shinny on the streets. Where are the kids playing shinny?

 

[tober]

Violent Crime at 42 Year Low | The Bang Switch

Your link says,

Remember folks, gun control isn’t about reducing crime — it’s about controlling the population. If gun-grabbers wanted to “save the children” as they claim, they would stop with their endless gun-grabs and promote responsible gun ownership.
​

Why don't some of the gun crowd name some elements of responsible gun ownership. I am a gun owner so I'll start. Prohibit leaving loaded guns accessible to children. Anybody wanna guess what the NRA response would be?

Canada does not have a gun problem? Tell that to the person murdered in Surrey this weekend.
I am sure the weapon was a registered rifle.

Since when is zero crime the definition of no gun problem? Every sport carries the risk of death and injury, either from misused equipment or sporting accident. More people than that are killed by booze and driving.