Global Warming ‘Greatest Scam in History’

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Tonington

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Let's confine this to oil/gas companies that you initially stated as the beneficiaries of government subsidies.

I initially said:

Oil, gas, coal, nuclear...all are mature industries which still receive subsidies.

Why do you want to confine it to something else?

Do you believe that tax incentives and outright subsidies are identical?
From your own definition, a subsidy is a form of monetary or financial assistance. Tax incentives are monetary and financial assistance. A tax credit is used by financial planners when deciding which competing option to choose. That is financial assistance.

I'm really not certain what problems you're having with this. Most of the subsidies for renewable energy are in the form of tax credits.
 

Slim Chance

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Nov 26, 2009
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Why do you want to confine it to something else?

This is the post you responded to:


"I can't speak to nuclear, but I'm entirely unfamiliar with the subsidy programs that exist for oil/gas, particular in light of the plethora of industry specific costs.

Got a link to these subsidy programs?
"


From your own definition, a subsidy is a form of monetary or financial assistance. Tax incentives are monetary and financial assistance. A tax credit is used by financial planners when deciding which competing option to choose. That is financial assistance.

Sorry, but there is a huge difference. As an example, you might apply (and receive) a federal subsidy to study the migration of birds. Upon acceptance, the recipient will get actual monies to pursue that end.

Tax breaks are applied against revenues that reduce the amount of outstanding taxes that will be due.


I'm really not certain what problems you're having with this. Most of the subsidies for renewable energy are in the form of tax credits.


The problem that I have relates to funding the ongoing operations of an industry that is non-competitive, it makes for a very expensive and very inefficient system... Fund and subsidize the R&D, but don't prop-up inefficiencies.
 

Tonington

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The problem of yours I refer to is what is and is not a subsidy. The subsidies to renewables are tax credits. So if that's your beef, then renewables get very few subsidies, and the R&D expenditures are mostly in fossil energy sources.

A tax break is financial assistance. That is a subsidy...
 

petros

The Central Scrutinizer
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Canada is lucky to break even on oil after tax credits for exploration and extraction. We make nothing for our product and any gains to the govt comes from taxation of the employees in the industry.
 

Tonington

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I forgot to add:

sub·si·dy (s
b
s
-d
)n. pl. sub·si·dies

1. Monetary assistance granted by a government to a person or group in support of an enterprise regarded as being in the public interest.
2. Financial assistance given by one person or government to another.
3. Money formerly granted to the British Crown by Parliament.

I didn't see anything that refers to tax breaks as subsidies.

It's only pointless because you can't understand that a tax break is financial assistance. That would be clause 2 for those who pay attention to what they type, or rather cut and paste.

I can deconstruct the definition further for you if you like.

Financial- of or relating to finance

Finance- the management of money and other assets

Assistance- The act of assisting

Assisting- to give aid or support

Tax- a fee levied by government

So, when the government says that you don't have to pay as much tax on the income from your investment, they are giving you support in an activity by lowering the amount of money you pay for that particular asset.

A financial assistance. A subsidy.

:study:

Pointless? No, not at all. Do you get the point? Unclear at this point, though I am leaning towards no.
 

petros

The Central Scrutinizer
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It's only pointless because you can't understand that a tax break is financial assistance. That would be clause 2 for those who pay attention to what they type, or rather cut and paste.

I can deconstruct the definition further for you if you like.

Financial- of or relating to finance

Finance- the management of money and other assets

Assistance- The act of assisting

Assisting- to give aid or support

Tax- a fee levied by government

So, when the government says that you don't have to pay as much tax on the income from your investment, they are giving you support in an activity by lowering the amount of money you pay for that particular asset.

A financial assistance. A subsidy.

:study:

Pointless? No, not at all. Do you get the point? Unclear at this point, though I am leaning towards no.
Exploration flow through share credits are the perfect example of how both exploration companies and their investors benefit from govt incentives. Without them oil and mineral exploration would be at a stand still with around 100,000 unemployed rig and service workers.
 

Slim Chance

Electoral Member
Nov 26, 2009
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It's only pointless because you can't understand that a tax break is financial assistance. That would be clause 2 for those who pay attention to what they type, or rather cut and paste.

Too bad that you are incapable of accepting that your answer is wrong. In that respect, you are identical to Joey Porter in acting in such a childish manner... Kudos to you in that wonderful accomplishment.

Perhaps you'll see the value in consulting the CRA or maybe an accountant and get the proper answer. Better yet, if I recall correctly, you were commenting on your interest in buying a duplex but didn't have the available capital. Well, seeing how tax breaks are identical to subsidies and we know that subsidies are financial assistance, why don't you see if the banks will accept the home renovation tax break as your down payment?.. It's a subsidy, after all, right?... Go and have this discussion with your banker and let me know how it pans out.

BTW - I see that you have desperately avoided my observation that the oceans lose their capacity to absorb CO2 as their temperature rises... If you like, I can go back a few pages and quote your responses that anthropogenic CO2 was causing the oceans to acidify and was also raising the waters temps.

Too bad that your scenario is a physical impossibility, but I'm guessing that based on your conspicuous silence on the issue, you already knew that.
 
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petros

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If you have the patience to sit out developement of an ore body, one can do very very very well with as little as a 5 grand investment.
 

JLM

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"Too bad that you are incapable of accepting that your answer is wrong. In that respect, you are identical to Joey Porter in acting in such a childish manner... Kudos to you in that wonderful accomplishment."


Really?????????? That bad? Never!
 

Tonington

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 27, 2006
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BTW - I see that you have desperately avoided my observation that the oceans lose their capacity to absorb CO2 as their temperature rises... If you like, I can go back a few pages and quote your responses that anthropogenic CO2 was causing the oceans to acidify and was also raising the waters temps.

I didn't see your question, but I already covered this:

It's pretty basic science. The partial pressure of the gas in the atmosphere above the water grows. More gas dissolves into the liquid. All the more telling, considering that the oceans are warming, which means the solubility of the gas is reduced, gas should be escaping back to the atmosphere, however. The magnitude of the change in partial pressure is greater than the magnitude in change of solubility, so the water absorbs more gas.

The change in temperature is small. The partial pressure change in carbon dioxide is large, therefore more carbon dioxide goes into the water.

For your education:
Solubility of gases in liquids- Henry's Law

http://www.800mainstreet.com/9/0009-006-henry.html
 

Tonington

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 27, 2006
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Perhaps you'll see the value in consulting the CRA or maybe an accountant and get the proper answer. Better yet, if I recall correctly, you were commenting on your interest in buying a duplex but didn't have the available capital. Well, seeing how tax breaks are identical to subsidies and we know that subsidies are financial assistance, why don't you see if the banks will accept the home renovation tax break as your down payment?.. It's a subsidy, after all, right?... Go and have this discussion with your banker and let me know how it pans out.

A tax break isn't direct monetary assistance, it's financial assistance. That is a subsidy by your own definition you posted here you clown. As to a tax break and a down payment, that's stupid. Whatever point you're trying to make you're failing to do so.
 
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ironsides

Executive Branch Member
Feb 13, 2009
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Carbon Sequestration

The process which removes CO2 from the atmosphere is known as carbon sequestration. Plants use photosynthesis to remove carbon from the atmosphere by incorporating it into biomass and releasing oxygen into the atmosphere.
The trees that Rainforest Rescue plants as part of its Plant A Rainforest Projects are helping to remove CO2 from the atmosphere.

You can help reduce society's carbon footprint by supporting one of the following projects:
Carbon Sequestration - Rainforest Rescue

Rainforests cover only a small part of the earth's surface – about 2% – yet they are one of the world’s most important natural regions because they:
REDUCE CARBON DIOXIDE EMISSIONS OR GREENHOUSE GASES

http://store.saveyourworld.com/Preserve-The-Rainforest-s/34.htm



Stop cutting down our trees. That would go a long way in helping stabilize our atmosphere.
 

Slim Chance

Electoral Member
Nov 26, 2009
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I didn't see your question, but I already covered this:



The change in temperature is small. The partial pressure change in carbon dioxide is large, therefore more carbon dioxide goes into the water.

So, the temperature change is small enough that it it falls within the scope of natural and expected variation or the temp change is big enough that you'll claim that it's AGW while being small enough to defy the laws of physics?
 

Slim Chance

Electoral Member
Nov 26, 2009
475
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A tax break isn't direct monetary assistance, it's financial assistance. That is a subsidy by your own definition you posted here you clown. As to a tax break and a down payment, that's stupid. Whatever point you're trying to make you're falling on your face failing to do so.


I already posted a definition of what a subsidy is, go back and read the definition of subsidy - or have your handler read it to you. I never imagined that there would be any difficulty in understanding the concepts behind it, but clearly, even this very simple concept is lost on some.
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
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RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia
(Oil is carried to the surface in lava tubes. So is CO2, lots of it. It's all biodegradable oil spills are natural events.) DB

High-resolution bathymetry shows extinct asphalt volcanoes on the seafloor off California, which were recently discovered. Credit: Dana Yoerger, WHOI.

http://www.livescience.com/php/multimedia/imagedisplay/img_display.php?s=environment&c=news&l=on&pic=volcano-image-100426-02.jpg∩=High-resolution+bathymetry+shows+extinct+asphalt+volcanoes+on+the+seafloor+off+California%2C+which+were+recently+discovered.+Credit%3A+Dana+Yoerger%2C+WHOI.&title=
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
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RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia
Change in pH is recorded in the surface waters. If the source of the surface water acidification is deep sea volcanoes, then there would have been a noted change in the benthic community from the deep ocean up towards the surface waters where we now measure the dropping pH. Such is not the case.

You know, sometimes it helps if you understand what is actually happening before you just spam some crap you found on the net.


I found many references to benthic changes in water coloumns associated with volcanic venting. Apparently it is a commonly found condition. How come you didn't know this. CO2 is definitely added to the oceans by this volcanic mechanisn, Al Gore and you don't know this however.
Volcanic carbon dioxide vents show ecosystem effects of ocean acidification

[PDF] Global gas flux from mud volcanoes: a significant source of fossil methane in the atmosphere and the ocean




Letter

Nature 454, 96-99 (3 July 2008) | doi:10.1038/nature07051; Received 13 March 2008; Accepted 1 May 2008; Published online 8 June 2008
Volcanic carbon dioxide vents show ecosystem effects of ocean acidification

Jason M. Hall-Spencer1, Riccardo Rodolfo-Metalpa1, Sophie Martin2, Emma Ransome1, Maoz Fine3,4, Suzanne M. Turner5, Sonia J. Rowley1, Dario Tedesco6,7 & Maria-Cristina Buia8

  1. Marine Institute, Marine Biology and Ecology Research Centre, University of Plymouth, Plymouth PL4 8AA, UK
  2. CNRS-Université de Paris 6, Villefranche-sur-Mer 06234, France
  3. Faculty of Life Sciences, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan 52900, Israel
  4. The Interuniversity Institute for Marine Science, Eilat 88103, Israel
  5. School of Environmental Sciences, University of East Anglia, Norwich NR4 7TJ, UK
  6. Department of Environmental Sciences, 2nd University of Naples, Caserta 81100, Italy
  7. Istituto di Geologia Ambientale e Geoingegneria, CNR, Rome 00138, Italy
  8. Laboratorio di Ecologia del Benthos, Stazione Zoologica Anton Dohrn, Naples 80077, Italy
Correspondence to: Jason M. Hall-Spencer1 Correspondence and requests for materials should be addressed to J.M.H.-S. (Email: jhall-spencer@plymouth.ac.uk).

Top of pageThe atmospheric partial pressure of carbon dioxide (p CO2) will almost certainly be double that of pre-industrial levels by 2100 and will be considerably higher than at any time during the past few million years1. The oceans are a principal sink for anthropogenic CO2 where it is estimated to have caused a 30% increase in the concentration of H+ in ocean surface waters since the early 1900s and may lead to a drop in seawater pH of up to 0.5 units by 2100 (refs 2, 3). Our understanding of how increased ocean acidity may affect marine ecosystems is at present very limited as almost all studies have been in vitro, short-term, rapid perturbation experiments on isolated elements of the ecosystem4, 5. Here we show the effects of acidification on benthic ecosystems at shallow coastal sites where volcanic CO2 vents lower the pH of the water column. Along gradients of normal pH (8.1–8.2) to lowered pH (mean 7.8–7.9, minimum 7.4–7.5), typical rocky shore communities with abundant calcareous organisms shifted to communities lacking scleractinian corals with significant reductions in sea urchin and coralline algal abundance. To our knowledge, this is the first ecosystem-scale validation of predictions that these important groups of organisms are susceptible to elevated amounts of p CO2. Sea-grass production was highest in an area at mean pH 7.6 (1,827
atm p CO2) where coralline algal biomass was significantly reduced and gastropod shells were dissolving due to periods of carbonate sub-saturation. The species populating the vent sites comprise a suite of organisms that are resilient to naturally high concentrations of p CO2 and indicate that ocean acidification may benefit highly invasive non-native algal species. Our results provide the first in situ insights into how shallow water marine communities might change when susceptible organisms are removed owing to ocean acidification.
 
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petros

The Central Scrutinizer
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Beave. Do you really think nobody had tallyed all the volcanic activity and removed from the equation?

Ironsides said "Plants use photosynthesis to remove carbon from the atmosphere by incorporating it into biomass and releasing oxygen into the atmosphere."

At night plants release CO2 and as they decay they release CO2.
 
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