Geez, I Thought Mulroney Was a Conservative!

SirJosephPorter

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I don't have a huge problem with the GST.

I do have a huge problem with the Liberals campaigning on dumping both the GST and NAFTA, using them as a cliub to beat the old PCs, ......and doing neither.



Except, of course, using the revenue to balance the budget......


That is politics, Colpy. In politics one does what works. GST, NAFTA were very unpopular during the election campaign, so it is natural that Chrétien would promise to get rid of them (or renegotiate NAFTA).

However, anybody with any sense would have figured out that it was a pie crust promise, easily broken. It is not that easy to go back upon an agreed upon treaty like NAFTA anyway.

As to GST, I am ambivalent about it. As Sir Francis mentioned, it replaced an existing tax. The big mistake Mulroney made was that he made it visible. People could see GST every time they purchase a product or a service. If he had kept it hidden it would have been a lost less unpopular.

Since it became visible, many people thought it was an extra tax. By then Mulroney was already unpopular, and people were ready to believe the worst of Mulroney. By keeping it hidden, he would have emphasized the point that it is merely a readjustment of tax.

And there is nothing wrong in keeping it hidden. The Value Added Tax (VAT) in Europe is a hidden tax; it is rolled into the price of the goods and services.

I don’t necessarily fault Mulroney for GST. That was neither right nor left wing policy. But as I said before, on many issues Mulroney was centre right, he would not at all have felt at home in today’s conservative party, which is mainly party of the right (though Harper is governing from centre right).
 

SirJosephPorter

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Gee, seems to me the parties merged when they finally realized they didn't have a snowball's chance of winning an election separately. I also seem to remember a vote on who would lead this new party

bobnoorduyn, it was not really much of a merger, it was more a case of Alliance (which was a much bigger party) swallowing up the smaller PC party. When a cobra swallows the smaller milk snake, it is not considered a merger.

As to vote, of course anybody except Harper didn’t stand a chance, he was the Alliance candidate. Alliance being a much bigger party, it was obvious that Alliance candidate was going to win.
 

bobnoorduyn

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Gee, seems to me the parties merged when they finally realized they didn't have a snowball's chance of winning an election separately. I also seem to remember a vote on who would lead this new party

bobnoorduyn, it was not really much of a merger, it was more a case of Alliance (which was a much bigger party) swallowing up the smaller PC party. When a cobra swallows the smaller milk snake, it is not considered a merger.

As to vote, of course anybody except Harper didn’t stand a chance, he was the Alliance candidate. Alliance being a much bigger party, it was obvious that Alliance candidate was going to win.

Unlike in the wild, they both have the option to say no, they needed each other to survive, so there's no point crying over spilled milk snake.
 
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bobnoorduyn

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And Btw, Trudeau was responsible for a hundred odd billion of our debt. Brian chalked up over four hundred and fifty billion.

Let it be said, I am a fan of neither of them, however, we had little debt and no deficit prior to Trudeau. Trudeau built the snowball and started rolling it down the hill, it could not be stopped. Simple inflation and our reliance on the programs instituted by him allowed it to accellerate. Mulroney's aquiescence and love of all things government allowed it to grow further, but he didn't start it, nor could he stop it, even if he'd wanted to. Harper is in the unenviable position of having to continue this progression because we want the government to use our money to pay for our own misfortune. And on and on it goes.
 

bobnoorduyn

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The thought of Jean (the Don) Chretien gives me nausea, but i give him credit for balancing the budget.

Allow me to nausiate you a little more; Chretien didn't balance the budget, we did. The Chretien government maintained the freeze on the basic personal exemption instituted by the Mulroney government allowing for about 5 years of "bracket creep", meaning we kept paying taxes without being indexed for inflation. Wages and prices went up but we actually took home less. In addition, the UI, (now EI) surplus went to about $50B, about the same time the approximately $50B federal deficit disappeared. Coincidence? So on whose backs were the books balanced?
 

Cliffy

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Nov 19, 2008
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"I was never a radical in my youth for fear I would become a conservative in my old age." - Buckminster Fuller

I was a radical in my youth when I first became aware of Bucky's statement. I have tried to be diligent all my life so as not to become conservative. I would like to thank all the conservatives on this forum for making it so easy to stay true to myself. Gawd forbid that I would turn out like any of you!!!

To be fair though, to me Liberals are too conservative for me, in fact so are the NDPeep. But then, I think anybody who takes politics seriously has a few screws loose.
 

Francis2004

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Nov 18, 2008
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I don't have a huge problem with the GST.

I do have a huge problem with the Liberals campaigning on dumping both the GST and NAFTA, using them as a cliub to beat the old PCs, ......and doing neither.



Except, of course, using the revenue to balance the budget......

Well I still do have a big problem with the GST...

For one it has been lowered and is still visible.. If we still had a modified MST as in the VAT suggested by SJP it would be invisible and no one would complain. The problem in North America is we complicate things all the time..



I also have a problem with NAFTA. It has not been the boom to business people say it has. We could have negotiated better individual deals and gotten better agreements without it. At this point our hands are tied by this agreement, something the US would nullify right away if it was to their disadvantage immediately.. One only needs to look at the outstanding issues between Canada / US and Mexico / US to see the US is always winning the battle. And if they don't win they refuse to follow the rules.

Time to say enough is enough..

Outstanding issues on NAFTA still pending
Softwood Lumber ( YES )
Income Trust Lawsuit
Fresh Water

Concerns
MMT in Gasoline
Lawsuits from Individuals on Businesses, Governemnts from Chapter 11 of Act.

North American Free Trade Agreement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 

Colpy

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"I was never a radical in my youth for fear I would become a conservative in my old age." - Buckminster Fuller

I was a radical in my youth when I first became aware of Bucky's statement. I have tried to be diligent all my life so as not to become conservative. I would like to thank all the conservatives on this forum for making it so easy to stay true to myself. Gawd forbid that I would turn out like any of you!!!

To be fair though, to me Liberals are too conservative for me, in fact so are the NDPeep. But then, I think anybody who takes politics seriously has a few screws loose.

I hate to break it to you Cliffy.....but you are a radical.....you've simply never grown up..... :)

Paraphrase Mr. Churchill a bit..."If you're not a communist at 16, you have no heart; if you're not a conservative at age 40 you have no brain"

Wise, wise man, Mr. Churchill.......
 

Cliffy

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I hate to break it to you Cliffy.....but you are a radical.....you've simply never grown up..... :)

Paraphrase Mr. Churchill a bit..."If you're not a communist at 16, you have no heart; if you're not a conservative at age 40 you have no brain"

Wise, wise man, Mr. Churchill.......

When I was around twenty, my dad said to me, "When are you going to grow up, get married and have a family?"
To which I replied without hesitation, "Why? So I can grow old and miserable like you?" To me, growing up, in the sense that most people mean it, is about living up to everybody else's expectations. Thanks but no thanks. I chose to be me instead. I don't fit any mold. The only thing radical about me is that, not only do I think outside the box, I live outside of it.
 

L Gilbert

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Good for you, Cliffy.
Churchill had his moments of wisdom, like most others. But he also had his moments of being an ass, like most others.

"Geez, I thought Mulroney was a Conservative!" lol

Mulroney comes from a Liberal family. He's a Glib in a blue suit.
 

SirJosephPorter

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Paraphrase Mr. Churchill a bit..."If you're not a communist at 16, you have no heart; if you're not a conservative at age 40 you have no brain"

Wise, wise man, Mr. Churchill.......


Colpy, Churchill was a great war time PM, but a lousy peace time PM. The British people were right to kick him out as soon as the war was over.
 

Colpy

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When I was around twenty, my dad said to me, "When are you going to grow up, get married and have a family?"
To which I replied without hesitation, "Why? So I can grow old and miserable like you?" To me, growing up, in the sense that most people mean it, is about living up to everybody else's expectations. Thanks but no thanks. I chose to be me instead. I don't fit any mold. The only thing radical about me is that, not only do I think outside the box, I live outside of it.

I too am a non-conformist. :roll:
 

Spade

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I hate to break it to you Cliffy.....but you are a radical.....you've simply never grown up..... :)

Paraphrase Mr. Churchill a bit..."If you're not a communist at 16, you have no heart; if you're not a conservative at age 40 you have no brain"

Wise, wise man, Mr. Churchill.......

Ahhh, conservatism, the ideology of the senescent!
 

Colpy

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Paraphrase Mr. Churchill a bit..."If you're not a communist at 16, you have no heart; if you're not a conservative at age 40 you have no brain"

Wise, wise man, Mr. Churchill.......

Colpy, Churchill was a great war time PM, but a lousy peace time PM. The British people were right to kick him out as soon as the war was over.

Mr. Churchill had his problems, but he was the greatest orator of the past 200 years.....and he was one of the few, almost prescient in his hatred of hitler and the Nazis........

But as a tactician? Awful.....witness Galipoli in WW I. His attitude towards Indian and/or Irish independence was indefensible, he was elitist as only a Brit aristocrat can be.........but he was, for all that, one of the greatest men of the 20th century. Bold, absolutely fearless, brilliant, absolutely sure of himself..........what kind of man writes a book called My Early Life at the age of50? One sure of his own destiny.

Interesting guy.

BTW, Churchill was only PM in peacetime between 1951 and 1955.........and I think he did an admireable job......especially as he was seriously ill, suffering a number of strokes between 1953 and his retirement in 1955..........
 

SirJosephPorter

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When was living in Britain, the grandson of Winston Churchill (also named Winston Churchill) was thrown out of the Tory caucus (he was an MP at that time) for supporting apartheid in South Africa, by Edward Heath, leader of the Tory Party.

Evidently he learned at the knees of his grandfather.
 

Colpy

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When was living in Britain, the grandson of Winston Churchill (also named Winston Churchill) was thrown out of the Tory caucus (he was an MP at that time) for supporting apartheid in South Africa, by Edward Heath, leader of the Tory Party.

Evidently he learned at the knees of his grandfather.

So.....now a dead grandfather is responsible for the acts of the grandson......

Now, that is somewhat.........disingenuous, wouldn't you say?

As well, Winston the Elder was a great man, that does NOT mean he was without gaping flaws, as I previously pointed out.........

I do find it amusing how far you reach to try and cut him down.

Why?

Feeling a little insignificant today?