Fed up with Religions Yet?

Dexter Sinister

Unspecified Specialist
Oct 1, 2004
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Then you're not actually judging the religion itself, but its adherents' interpretation thereof, since each person may have his own interpretation.
Ah, that old red herring again. That's always the line taken by people trying to get religion off the hook for the bad behaviour of its followers, as if religion existed out there as some Platonic ideal that people keep perverting. That doesn't work. If the meaning and value of a religion is not found in the behaviour of the people who profess to follow it, then it isn't anywhere, there's nothing else to judge, it just becomes a set of ideas unconnected to reality. Which for my money, in a more fundamental sense it is anyway. If religion's basic claims are true, there's no point in trying to understand the world, there's no point in trying to do science, anything we think we've figured out is subject to change by supernatural agents that we more or less by definition can never understand, and if religion's basic claims are false then most people throughout most of history have spent their whole lives misunderstanding the reality around them and wasting a lot of resources on pointless and meaningless activities. No prizes for correctly guessing which side of that I come down on.
 

Sal

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Sep 29, 2007
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Then you're not actually judging the religion itself, but its adherents' interpretation thereof, since each person may have his own interpretation.
What else could matter BUT the behaviour of those that embrace that belief?

What do you think matters?
 

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
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What else could matter BUT the behaviour of those that embrace that belief?

What do you think matters?

It depends on what you are judging. Are you judging the religion itself, or the behaviour of its followers?

To take an example, was the establishment of the Indian Residential Schools a Christian act? If you judge by the Christian writings, then no. If you judge by the behaviour of its adherents, then yes.

In my mind, the religion is an ideal we have to strive towards, and on that front no one is perfect. But I won't blame the founder of a religion for the behaviour of his followers.
 

petros

The Central Scrutinizer
Nov 21, 2008
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To take an example, was the establishment of the Indian Residential Schools a Christian act?
Not at all. It was an act of Government made mandatory under the grand azzhole of all space, time and dimension Sir Robert Laird Borden in 1920
 

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
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Not at all. It was an act of Government made mandatory under the grand azzhole of all space, time and dimension Sir Robert Laird Borden in 1920

Huh? Hector Langevin, Minister of Public Works under John A. Macdonald, started the Residential School System. He was quoted as saying:

"In order to educate the children properly we must separate them from their families. Some people may say that this is hard but if we want to civilize them we must do that.'
Hector Langevin, Public Works Minister of Canada, 1883

Truth and Reconciliation Commission of Canada (TRC)

And when the government tried to wrestle the schools from ther Four Churches, the Four Churches opposed it to the bitter end.

So, was that Jesus' doing? If we judge by the Gospels, no. If we judge by the actions of the Four Churches, yes. By the standards of the gospels, it was not a Christian act regardless of what the operators of those schools may have called themselves.​


Just to clarify, by 1920 the Residential school system was already quite sell established and continued on until the last school closed in 1996!
 

petros

The Central Scrutinizer
Nov 21, 2008
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Borden made it mandatory.

An amendment to the Indian Act in 1920 made attendance at a day, industrial or
residential school compulsory for First Nations children and, in some parts of
the country, residential schools were the only option. The number of residential
schools reached 80 in 1931 but decreased in the years that followed. The last
federally-operated residential school was closed in 1996. In total, about
150,000 First Nations children passed through the residential school system.[1]
 

Sal

Hall of Fame Member
Sep 29, 2007
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It depends on what you are judging. Are you judging the religion itself, or the behaviour of its followers?
The religion itself is only a set of tenets, the behaviour of it's followers is a direct result of those tenets. those tenets are fear based at best.

To take an example, was the establishment of the Indian Residential Schools a Christian act? If you judge by the Christian writings, then no. If you judge by the behaviour of its adherents, then yes.
I don't know anything about Indian Residential Schools so for me I can't parallel it.

In my mind, the religion is an ideal we have to strive towards, and on that front no one is perfect. But I won't blame the founder of a religion for the behaviour of his followers.
While I will say that I think religion can and does benefit people, I do not like that each religion is set up to force it adherents to convert others to the same set of tenets. And I do not like the forced belief that unless one believes in it then one is doomed for eternity...but out of LOVE of course. They attempt to save my soul. My soul is already saved...they need to run along. That is where it becomes dangerous, destructive and antitical to god. That's why I have a problem with religion, most are antithical to love, and acceptance and live and let live.

Therefore I view religion as working against what Christ preached.
 

WLDB

Senate Member
Jun 24, 2011
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I planed on enjoying the solitude.

I was hoping to be completely oblivious as I was before my birth. Looks like this argument will go on for the rest of eternity if we are all headed to the same place. Sounds more like hell than heaven.
 

gopher

Hall of Fame Member
Jun 26, 2005
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Machjo,

So we should judge a religion not by the content of its sacred texts, but by how whoever decides to interpret them?



If you read the earlier posts it was being alleged that, somehow, there was a "kinship" between Islam and Hitlerism. The confusion about that was being corrected, nothing more.
 

hunboldt

Time Out
May 5, 2013
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at my keyboard
Catholic official worried about Israel attacks
Catholic official worried about Israel attacks





Well we wouldn't have to deal with all this crap in the world, that's for sure.

All these religious groups who all think they know best & they have it right, which justifies them in using their religion to attack the other religions.... When in reality, they're all a bunch of crack pots dragging humanity down from progression & unity until we're right back to where we came from in the stone ages so we can do it all over again.

There are tiems I wish you weren't so diplomatic and told us what you REALLY think...
 

Spade

Ace Poster
Nov 18, 2008
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We have seen how Atheists treat religions. Look to the USSR and China.

And how the religious treat(ed) other religions. Look to Britain, Ireland, Germany, Israel, Saudi Arabia, France, Afghanistan, Iraq, ...
Sorry, had to quit, my finger was getting tired.
 

Christianna

Electoral Member
Dec 18, 2012
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We have seen how Atheists treat religions. Look to the USSR and China.
This atheist just doesn't care a whole lot what god people want to believe in, I leave them alone and certainly do not go door to door trying to win converts. A proselytizer I am not, and I don't need them trying to convert me.
 

Dexter Sinister

Unspecified Specialist
Oct 1, 2004
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We have seen how Atheists treat religions. Look to the USSR and China.
That's another red herring argument, those people were much more than just atheists and atheism is not what drove them, they were fanatic ideologues promoting another belief system. Communism as it was implemented there had many of the features of religions: texts with a status like scripture from Marx and Lenin and Mao, charismatic leaders who sounded like preachers, personality cults, an official dogma, suppression of dissent, severe punishments for heresy, coercion of belief, the usual stuff people do when they think they're absolutely right beyond any chance of error. What they were really trying to do was replace existing belief systems with another one that had no more grounding in reality than the originals, and it worked about as well as these things usually do.