Fed up with Religions Yet?
- Thread starter Praxius
- Start date
Well you best explain that to all the credible Historians as it would be news to them. And you have the gall to lecture me on History. Really - Fail
The attack was based upon US presence in Muslim Countries- Ask Osama - OK - He is sleeping with the fishes- Again a lack of knowledge on events, cause and effect. Another Fail
As your OP was recent History and events - I kept it at that - But did extend it to include the 20th century.
Kill rates between Hitler and Stalin?
Perhaps as an expert you could enlighten us as to what it really is. I mean WW2 being fought because of the Jews is news to millions.
Of course it's not all I do, how I respond generally depends on how the message is presented. With reasonable people I'm reasonable, people who condemn me to Hell and recommend my suppression, or death as at least one person here did, get treated with a little more feeling, and people who respond with bad temper and foul language as you often do, often either get it back or get ignored. But that's okay too, carry on with your delusions and persecution complexes.
And how many relgious wing nuts ( as described above) do you run across in the average day-
And never mind the reply - I run across all of them with my car. God told me to write that last line ya know.
Ok, I think I see where you are coming from... And I can appreciate what you are saying.
I unashamedly call myself Christian, and I try my best to live in a way that is upright and good day to day. (and oft fail miserably by the way)
But I am well aware that there are also others who claim to be Christian, or Muslim, or Atheist, or any other name you can think of, and they are still very spiteful and hateful to anyone who does not fit in their theological mould, and unfortunately it is the actions of these people that are remembered. And very rarely do we step back and take a look at what each of these people groups have contributed to humanity.
*The Muslim culture from before the 12th century contributed the platform that would later become western civilization as we know it.
*The founding fathers of the United States of America were almost all men of faith and wrote the Constitution and Declaration of Independence based on Biblical ideas and principles.
*And some of the greatest scientific advancements in history have been due to men who claim to be Atheistic.
I think someone made the point that those who believe in a theological absolute cannot afford to be tolerant, but I don't think that is the case. Jesus charged his followers to love their enemies, and be good to those who would persecute them. Most Muslims follow the same general idea. And Hindus are inclusive enough to have a god for just about anything you can imagine. From protecting the house, to flushing the toilet. (Apologies to any Hindus who might read my post
The point in all of this is, if there is a god (and I personally believe there is) no amount of people saying that there is or is not is going to change that. And vice versa- if there is not a god, no amount of Bible/Torah/Qu'ran thumping and prayer and fasting is going make him suddenly decide to exist.
But I agree with you that there is absolutely no excuse for some of the atrocities that have been committed in the name of Religion.
I also believe that they pale in comparison to the vast crimes that are committed on a day to day basis by people in general.
Bottom line: People are people, and they will do what they will do. There have been wars and suffering long before religion hit the scene, and they will continue forever after it ends, should it ever do so. Religion is not the problem. Human nature, the nature that craves being right and significant to the point that it will do whatever it takes to achieve it, is the problem. And there will be no peace until we can find a way to curb that nature. Christians who spraypaint Swasticas and bomb abortion clinics are Christians in name only. Just as Muslims who shred daycares and bus stations and fly jets into towers are Muslim in name alone.
For a Christian, the greatest responsibility is representing Christ and the Body of believers accurately and fairly.
It breaks my heart when peaceful people are made to look like intolerant bastards by hypocrites who do not have the faith or self-control to walk the talk.
Ok, I think I see where you are coming from... And I can appreciate what you are saying.
I unashamedly call myself Christian, and I try my best to live in a way that is upright and good day to day. (and oft fail miserably by the way)
But I am well aware that there are also others who claim to be Christian, or Muslim, or Atheist, or any other name you can think of, and they are still very spiteful and hateful to anyone who does not fit in their theological mould, and unfortunately it is the actions of these people that are remembered. And very rarely do we step back and take a look at what each of these people groups have contributed to humanity.
*The Muslim culture from before the 12th century contributed the platform that would later become western civilization as we know it.
*The founding fathers of the United States of America were almost all men of faith and wrote the Constitution and Declaration of Independence based on Biblical ideas and principles.
*And some of the greatest scientific advancements in history have been due to men who claim to be Atheistic.
I think someone made the point that those who believe in a theological absolute cannot afford to be tolerant, but I don't think that is the case. Jesus charged his followers to love their enemies, and be good to those who would persecute them. Most Muslims follow the same general idea. And Hindus are inclusive enough to have a god for just about anything you can imagine. From protecting the house, to flushing the toilet. (Apologies to any Hindus who might read my post
The point in all of this is, if there is a god (and I personally believe there is) no amount of people saying that there is or is not is going to change that. And vice versa- if there is not a god, no amount of Bible/Torah/Qu'ran thumping and prayer and fasting is going make him suddenly decide to exist.
But I agree with you that there is absolutely no excuse for some of the atrocities that have been committed in the name of Religion.
I also believe that they pale in comparison to the vast crimes that are committed on a day to day basis by people in general.
Bottom line: People are people, and they will do what they will do. There have been wars and suffering long before religion hit the scene, and they will continue forever after it ends, should it ever do so. Religion is not the problem. Human nature, the nature that craves being right and significant to the point that it will do whatever it takes to achieve it, is the problem. And there will be no peace until we can find a way to curb that nature. Christians who spraypaint Swasticas and bomb abortion clinics are Christians in name only. Just as Muslims who shred daycares and bus stations and fly jets into towers are Muslim in name alone.
For a Christian, the greatest responsibility is representing Christ and the Body of believers accurately and fairly.
It breaks my heart when peaceful people are made to look like intolerant bastards by hypocrites who do not have the faith or self-control to walk the talk.
Excellent Post. Everyone with or without a religious belief should throw a green on such a well written post
Yeah, it's pretty good, but it contains some errors of fact and some claims I can't agree with. The U.S. founding documents, for instance, are not based on Biblical ideas and principles, quite the contrary in fact, they are very explicitly based on the humanist values of The Enlightenment, and it contains the same mistake almost all religious apologists make, trying the separate a religion from the behaviour of the people who follow it. There is much truth in the claim that human nature is the issue, but to the extent that religion is an invention of human nature, to make such a separation is to deny the issue.
I would like to say that I never made the claim that religion is a product of human nature. I myself am religious and believe my faith to be sacred, and above mortality.
But that is not the point of what I was writing. I was not bandying my ideas, or my beliefs.
About the American founding fathers John Adams himself said that "Our constitution is for a religious and moral people, it is suitable for no other."
James Madison, the architect of the American constitution said "We have not put our hopes in the power of state to govern men, but on the power of men to govern themselves according to the ten commandments of god."
In his famous speech "Give me liberty, or give me death" Patrick Henry repeatedly mentioned a christian god, oft quoting the scriptures themselves.
The declaration of independence itself clearly mentioned god several times, and made many of its claims based on Christian ethics.
Need I say more?
In my opinion you missed some points on the Constitution
The use of the word Creator- Not a word in common use back in that day.
They also gave the people power to overthrow the Govt - Think of Cromwell.
As to the Founding Fathers- How many were Atheists. So yes their religious beliefs would be used. Same as any other strongly held belief would be used.
You state that religion is a human invention- Yet I believe in a God- Neither of us has definite proof of our respective beliefs.
IN CONGRESS, JULY 4, 1776
The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America
hen in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. — Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.
I have to take issue with "christian ethics". The same morality and ethics can be found in most of the worlds religions and in many groups entirely devoid of religion. These principles are not invented by Christians nor are they the sole property of Christians. They are owned by humanity and have been around since well before Christianity or Judaism or Islam.
I just love this. Now if only the general population would realize that our govts in north America have become what the constitution tells us to overthrow.
Ok, fair enough. I agree with you in saying that maybe the Christian group has taken ownership of something that was not necessarily theirs in the first place. Replace it then with Orthodox Jewish ethics then. Because that is where the Ten Commandments originated from, and it is not really arguable that they provided the foundation on which the founding documents were built. (The book of Deuteronomy, more specifically)
Thanks for bringing that to my attention.
Thanks for bringing that to my attention.
My history is right. The way you responded to my post suggests to me that you are far more interested in trying to annihilate what I presented to make yourself look smarter, then you are in engaging in meaningful conversation.
Didn't read the piece, did you. I'll grant that the quotes you provided are accurate, but what you concluded from them is not correct, the U.S. was not founded as a Christian nation and the founding documents are not based on Biblical principles. You're also committing the straw man fallacy, imputing nasty motives to me instead of engaging with the issues.
I don't know offhand, but certainly the leaders were.
So they could have been a small number.40 people signed the Declaration. I only browsed thru your link and it did have some major figures as Deists- But it appears they were a minority. Far as I can tell anyways.
What it really comes down to is the fact that those pointing their fingers at "religion", are in fact, taking the little kids way out. Religion is a "thing". Religion can't DO anything. Mankind, on the other hand, is verycapable of doing all kinds of horrible things and doing those things in the name of "something". Thosebthat argue that religion is responsible for things need to give their head a shake, knock off the BS straw man arguments, and put the blame where it belongs.