Fat Kids

[countryboy]

I can't say the idea of eating bait appeals to me much either....

LW, I know what you mean...at least, if you're talking about raw fish. But, on the subject of Fat Kids, here's an observation I couldn't help making when I first moved to Japan way back in the late 80s. At that time, in the big cities (like Tokyo), the fast food movement was well underway. In addition to the dozens of McDs in Tokyo, they had their own burger chains with cool names like LoveBurger, First Kitchen, and many more.

I was lucky enough (because of my job) to travel to all parts of Japan on a regular basis...from the northern island of Hokkaido to Kyushu in the south and all points in between. I began to notice that in the smaller cities and towns, the school age kids all looked fairly "traditionally Japanese"...fairly small in stature, very smooth skin, and a generally healthy look about them. And very few, if any fast food restaurants in those areas. They lived on a more traditional diet of fish (sometimes raw, but it's a treat, not a staple), veggies, rice, and some fruit.

But, in the big cities you could see the fast food joints jammed with school kids (in their uniforms) after the school day had ended or on weekends, just piggin' out on burgers, fries, and pop. And lo and behold, many of them were obese and had skin covered with zits and things. They did not look healthy at all.

 

[talloola]

A friend of mine (with relatives in Japan) never refrigerates her eggs. She is guite healthy. However I wouldn't trust an unrefrigerated egg as far as I can spit.

I've never laid an egg, but I can cook one better than any
damn chicken.

 

[JLM]

Yes, that's my understanding of it. We do seem to be able to get brown eggs from local farms around here but I don't believe it makes any difference to the quality of them.

nah, just an excuse for the store to jack the price up.

 

[talloola]

nah, just an excuse for the store to jack the price up.

yeah, I agree, but I wonder about the 'free range' eggs,
exactly what do those chickens eat?, not sure if I like
what I might find out on the range. lol

 

[countryboy]

Countryboy, when we lived in Britain, I worked for three years for Food Research Institute in Norwich. We did research into food processing, I was not involved in nutrition.

Our objective was to learn how food behaves during the processing, in the mouth etc. with the view of identifying certain general principles, which would help food industry make a better product.

In that we studied food polysaccharides, particularly Xanthan gum, Carrageenan and Gellan gum.

As the website says, Xanthan is merely the waste product of a microorganism (so is gellen gum, by product of the microoganism psudomonas elodea, give or take a couple of letters). But it does have some interesting properties. Depending upon the condition, its viscosity can change by four orders of magnitude (by a factor of about 10,000). At low viscosity it becomes easy to process, but at high viscosity, it gives the feeling and texture of milk shake or ice cream in the mouth. It is a very useful additive to foods, which gives the same mouth feel as a milk shake at a fraction of the cost. It is used in sauces, ice cream, milk shakes, anywhere where thickness, high viscosity is desirable.

We also looked at Casein as a substitute for milk and cream in ice cream. It works very well (and at fraction of a cost of milk or cream), I think they do use casein as milk substitute in ice cream in some places.

Incidentally, not only it works very well, but Xanthan gum is also very low in calories. Having worked in food research for three years, you would be surprised at things food industry does, to give customer what he wants, a tasty, filling product full of texture at low cost.

I understand all that stuff, and I used to work in the technical side of the paint and coatings business and I understand that casein used to be called "whitewash" back in the days of Tom Sawyer.

I think we are in some deep trouble with these additives and are heading for more. First of all, they are not natural food and thought they may be low in calories and deemed "safe" if used in small quantities all by themselves once in a while (or in a lab rat's life), there is NO study anywhere that can assure you or me of the safety - short or long term - to humans when these little concoctions are ingested in various combinations over a long period of time. I think we're getting clues in the form of increasing rates of obesity, diabetes, cancer, etc. but definitive studies? No way.

Now, given that other "under developed" countries do not suffer the North American maladies, and combined with the fact that they eat a more natural diet (in many cases, devoid of additives), it suggest a strong possibility of a link between our modern health conditions and the non-food crap we are eating more of every day.

The research people have even admitted that there is a possibility of allergic reactions to xanthan gum, but they continue to use more and more of it in every way. They have even infected one of my favorite condiments - hot sauce - with it! Sheesh, will they never stop? I didn't ask for a fluffier texture to my hot sauce, so who did?

The whole point to this exercise is marketing principles being freely applied to something that affects our health, and the food companies are not disclosing this information to the average consumer. Sure, there are some (weak) labelling laws out there, but if you don't know what xanthan gum is (sounds like something from a xanthan tree, doesn't it?), who is going to take the time to stop and think about it? The assumption always is, "if it's being sold in the store, it must be good for me." Well, cigarettes are sold in the stores too, but it's pretty damned hard to make a case for good health there!

I take strong exception to the deception in the industrial food business. Food companies are trying to compete with each other on everything except what is good for their customers...nutrition and overall goodness. Fluffier textures, creamier this, softer that,...it has nothing whatsoever to do with good health, and in many cases, everything to do with bad health.

Back to xanthan gum and additives for a moment...Honey Nut Cheerios has a variety of interesting ingredients and one is trisodium phosphate, a chemical cleaner or degreaser. I defy anyone to show me a study that proves that TSP in their cereal mixed with xanthan gum in their ice cream, along with the heavy duty amount of fructose (from corn) in the morning marmalade, and supplemented with a health dose of hydrolized vegetable protein (aka MSG) in the afternoon 'tater chip snack is a healthy, safe, and nutritious way to eat over any given period of time.

One more time, it's this combination of things that we're eating that is the concern. It's virtually uncontrolled, untested, and damn dangerous. How is it contributing to childhood obesity? Well, JLM already pointed out the sugar-in-the-cereal issue and that might be the least of our worries. At least sugar is "real"...high fructose corn syrup is real too...real(ly) bad. And it's popping up everywhere as a cheaper substitute ("no sugar added!") for sweetening things.

If you take the time to read more labels on processed foods, you might begin to see the magnitude of the situation. There seems to be no end in sight.

 

[talloola]

Don’t’ you drink eggnog then? Eggnog contains raw eggs.

yes, I do drink eggnog, but with the flavouring the
flavour is changed, I tasted homemade eggnot once, tasted
awful, a raw egg taste, I need that to dissapear, then
I'm OK with it.
The amount of eggnog I drink in a year amounts to about
8 ounces.

 

[JLM]

yes, I do drink eggnog, but with the flavouring the
flavour is changed, I tasted homemade eggnot once, tasted
awful, a raw egg taste, I need that to dissapear, then
I'm OK with it.
The amount of eggnog I drink in a year amounts to about
8 ounces.

It may be an "old wives tale" but I did hear egg nog is a good way to catch the flu.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

I understand all that stuff, and I used to work in the technical side of the paint and coatings business and I understand that casein used to be called "whitewash" back in the days of Tom Sawyer.

I think we are in some deep trouble with these additives and are heading for more. First of all, they are not natural food and thought they may be low in calories and deemed "safe" if used in small quantities all by themselves once in a while (or in a lab rat's life), there is NO study anywhere that can assure you or me of the safety - short or long term - to humans when these little concoctions are ingested in various combinations over a long period of time. I think we're getting clues in the form of increasing rates of obesity, diabetes, cancer, etc. but definitive studies? No way.

Now, given that other "under developed" countries do not suffer the North American maladies, and combined with the fact that they eat a more natural diet (in many cases, devoid of additives), it suggest a strong possibility of a link between our modern health conditions and the non-food crap we are eating more of every day.

The research people have even admitted that there is a possibility of allergic reactions to xanthan gum, but they continue to use more and more of it in every way. They have even infected one of my favorite condiments - hot sauce - with it! Sheesh, will they never stop? I didn't ask for a fluffier texture to my hot sauce, so who did?

The whole point to this exercise is marketing principles being freely applied to something that affects our health, and the food companies are not disclosing this information to the average consumer. Sure, there are some (weak) labelling laws out there, but if you don't know what xanthan gum is (sounds like something from a xanthan tree, doesn't it?), who is going to take the time to stop and think about it? The assumption always is, "if it's being sold in the store, it must be good for me." Well, cigarettes are sold in the stores too, but it's pretty damned hard to make a case for good health there!

I take strong exception to the deception in the industrial food business. Food companies are trying to compete with each other on everything except what is good for their customers...nutrition and overall goodness. Fluffier textures, creamier this, softer that,...it has nothing whatsoever to do with good health, and in many cases, everything to do with bad health.

Back to xanthan gum and additives for a moment...Honey Nut Cheerios has a variety of interesting ingredients and one is trisodium phosphate, a chemical cleaner or degreaser. I defy anyone to show me a study that proves that TSP in their cereal mixed with xanthan gum in their ice cream, along with the heavy duty amount of fructose (from corn) in the morning marmalade, and supplemented with a health dose of hydrolized vegetable protein (aka MSG) in the afternoon 'tater chip snack is a healthy, safe, and nutritious way to eat over any given period of time.

One more time, it's this combination of things that we're eating that is the concern. It's virtually uncontrolled, untested, and damn dangerous. How is it contributing to childhood obesity? Well, JLM already pointed out the sugar-in-the-cereal issue and that might be the least of our worries. At least sugar is "real"...high fructose corn syrup is real too...real(ly) bad. And it's popping up everywhere as a cheaper substitute ("no sugar added!") for sweetening things.

If you take the time to read more labels on processed foods, you might begin to see the magnitude of the situation. There seems to be no end in sight.

Food industry gives the consumer what he/she wants countryboy, that is what free enterprise is all about.

If people want quality, the industry will give them quality. But people are not willing to pay more for quality, they want tasty, great food with good texture at a moderate price. Then food industry has to be innovative and come up with products such as Xanthan gum or Gellan gum to give people what they want.

If there is a clamour tomorrow for good, natural ingredients in the food and people are willing to pay for it, the industry will give them that. The industry doesn’t care one way or the other, they are interested in making a profit. The fault lies, not with the industry, but with the consumer.

 

[Kreskin]

You're not going to bring a 6-year old to McDonald's and convince him or her to eat salad.

 

[JLM]

Food industry gives the consumer what he/she wants countryboy, that is what free enterprise is all about.

If people want quality, the industry will give them quality. But people are not willing to pay more for quality, they want tasty, great food with good texture at a moderate price. Then food industry has to be innovative and come up with products such as Xanthan gum or Gellan gum to give people what they want.

If there is a clamour tomorrow for good, natural ingredients in the food and people are willing to pay for it, the industry will give them that. The industry doesn’t care one way or the other, they are interested in making a profit. The fault lies, not with the industry, but with the consumer.

You mention the list of ingredients on labels- almost absolutely useless for anyone but a chemist or a lexicographer. I read the first two listed and if I don't see anything subversive there, I generally eat the crap- what else can you do besides spending two hours poring over a dictionary. Things like tri glutium solvate mean absolutely nothing to me, and that's what the manufacturers are "banking" on. :lol::lol::lol:

 

[damngrumpy]

I am a grandparent and I have some rules when you are staying here.
1 You don't eat a bunch of crap before meal time.
2 you sit as a family at the dinner table, no TV, ipods, or mp3's
3 healthy food is put on the table, no you don't have to eat what
you don't like but you do have to eat healthy food
4 When making choices in treats, its explained these are in fact
treats, not everyday fare when choosing a snack.
5 These rules apply whether you are five or eighteen when it
comes to grand children.
6 exceptions from sitting as a family, gray cup Sunday, or when all the
family comes for a summer barbeque,

Everyone knows the rules, everyone knows its family time, we all engage
in conversation and the little ones are as important as adults and all are
heard. This develops good eating habits and for the children the develop
a sense of self worth and self esteem.
Kids don't sit around playing games all day, its a farm, children in our family
are encouraged to be active, they teens have memberships for the gym and
others are enrolled in mixed marshal arts.
We don't need the military we need parents and grand parents to take responsibility
for the well being of their children

 

[JLM]

I am a grandparent and I have some rules when you are staying here.
1 You don't eat a bunch of crap before meal time.
2 you sit as a family at the dinner table, no TV, ipods, or mp3's
3 healthy food is put on the table, no you don't have to eat what
you don't like but you do have to eat healthy food
4 When making choices in treats, its explained these are in fact
treats, not everyday fare when choosing a snack.
5 These rules apply whether you are five or eighteen when it
comes to grand children.
6 exceptions from sitting as a family, gray cup Sunday, or when all the
family comes for a summer barbeque,

Everyone knows the rules, everyone knows its family time, we all engage
in conversation and the little ones are as important as adults and all are
heard. This develops good eating habits and for the children the develop
a sense of self worth and self esteem.
Kids don't sit around playing games all day, its a farm, children in our family
are encouraged to be active, they teens have memberships for the gym and
others are enrolled in mixed marshal arts.
We don't need the military we need parents and grand parents to take responsibility
for the well being of their children

Hockey night in Canada when the Canucks are playing is a lot more of a valid excuse than any ol' Grey Cup Sunday. :smile:

 

[countryboy]

Food industry gives the consumer what he/she wants countryboy, that is what free enterprise is all about.

If people want quality, the industry will give them quality. But people are not willing to pay more for quality, they want tasty, great food with good texture at a moderate price. Then food industry has to be innovative and come up with products such as Xanthan gum or Gellan gum to give people what they want.

If there is a clamour tomorrow for good, natural ingredients in the food and people are willing to pay for it, the industry will give them that. The industry doesn’t care one way or the other, they are interested in making a profit. The fault lies, not with the industry, but with the consumer.

I disagree with you on a few points. Well, actually, most of them. I doubt strongly that many (if any) consumers are demanding the kinds of additives that the manufacturers are slipping into the food products. That doesn't make sense - how would the average consumer even know what they are?

I think the food industry is doing a lot of "demand creating" by trying to differentiate their products (some of which are just bastardized commodities) with some nasty little product innovations and then advertising them to be something that they are actually not. ("Healthy", for example...a big cereal company just lost one in the U.S. by doing this). The worst part of it all is that they continue to fiddle with the "recipes" by substituting different (usually cheaper) additives without disclosing this to their customers. A prime example of this is the move toward cheaper than sugar sweeteners such as high fructose corn syrup. The net result of this "sleight of hand" trick is that the customer doesn't realize that the product they might have been buying for years is now different. And they didn't "demand" it...they're not even aware of it!

I do agree that profit, no matter what the consequences, is often the motive, but I disagree that it is the customer that is driving the technological changes. Profit is a necessary thing in order for a business to survive, but I disagree with "profit at any cost." That type of short term strategy usually results in problems for the company following that path, and I think their problems are just beginning.

And I do think demand for better quality food products is increasing, as evidenced by the obvious move toward more organic products in the marketplace. There are other positive (healthy) activities going on, such as the "Slow Food Movement" and I think we will see more, as the public becomes more aware of what is happening to them and their "food." It's just a matter of time, and I'm hoping it will happen faster. People are not stupid...being deliberately misinformed is one thing, but the power of the consumer is big stuff and you will see just how powerful, as more of them become more accurately informed.

This entire mess was created by manufacturers trying to apply marketing principles to something that is basic to life, virtually commodities in many cases. That is a bad fit, because you are looking at almost a "pure competition" situation. In order to protect their pricing structures, they have painted themselves into a bit of a corner by cutting product costs to the bare bones (additives), playing some very suspicious advertising "games", and ending up with products that are all pretty much the same and questionable at best, on the health and nutrition side of things. The part that might do them the most harm in the long haul is the prices they are charging for this "food." Six bucks for a box of cheap additives (breakfast cereal) ain't good value and people will not react positively as the story unfolds. And unfold it will, in spite of "industrial food's" best efforts to suppress it. Once again, people simply are not stupid - other companies and industries have discovered that the hard way in the past, and this situation will be no different.

Perhaps the most ironic part will turn out to be this: The same legal power that has allowed them to fiddle with ingredients (such as "fresh orange juice" and many different names for MSG) will be the same "power" that can be brought to bear on them when it comes time for the lawsuits...allergy problems, diabetes, obesity, whew...the list could be long.

If a woman can sue McD's because she spilled hot coffee on herself in one of their restaurants...and win, just imagine the field day(s) that will occur once the lawyers get into the really serious stuff!

 

[countryboy]

You're not going to bring a 6-year old to McDonald's and convince him or her to eat salad.

You're likely right on that one, Kreskin. I used to handle it differently...my daughters at that age only went to McDonald's when I allowed them to...about every 3 months, if they were lucky.

 

[Francis2004]

You're not going to bring a 6-year old to McDonald's and convince him or her to eat salad.

Perhaps not a salad, but certainly apple slices and juice instead of pop.. And the toy makes a good hostage. :lol:

Of course you need not go back ..

 

[countryboy]

Food industry gives the consumer what he/she wants countryboy, that is what free enterprise is all about.

If people want quality, the industry will give them quality. But people are not willing to pay more for quality, they want tasty, great food with good texture at a moderate price. Then food industry has to be innovative and come up with products such as Xanthan gum or Gellan gum to give people what they want.

If there is a clamour tomorrow for good, natural ingredients in the food and people are willing to pay for it, the industry will give them that. The industry doesn’t care one way or the other, they are interested in making a profit. The fault lies, not with the industry, but with the consumer.

A "PS" to my long-winded response to this one...the big 3 auto makers used to take the consumer for granted some years ago too. And look at the shape they're in today. The customer found something better (not cheaper, BETTER) in the form of other cars like Toyota, Honda, etc. I suspect you will see a similar change in the food biz, but hopefully with some serious domestic competition that knows how to produce and market food wisely. Heck of an opportunity for local food producers - lots of them - to combine a growing local food movement with real customer needs and come up with...convenience foods that are good for us! It's technically possible (I make my own so surely professionals could do it better!) and potentially profitable. And healthy. Exciting times coming, I'd say...

 

[JLM]

A "PS" to my long-winded response to this one...the big 3 auto makers used to take the consumer for granted some years ago too. And look at the shape they're in today. The customer found something better (not cheaper, BETTER) in the form of other cars like Toyota, Honda, etc. I suspect you will see a similar change in the food biz, but hopefully with some serious domestic competition that knows how to produce and market food wisely. Heck of an opportunity for local food producers - lots of them - to combine a growing local food movement with real customer needs and come up with...convenience foods that are good for us! It's technically possible (I make my own so surely professionals could do it better!) and potentially profitable. And healthy. Exciting times coming, I'd say...

I am hoping that this H.S.T. cloud as it applies to restaurants may have a silver lining in that all the junk joints like McD's and Burger King will just bite the dust and a few who offer wholesome food at a reasonable price will survive. My wife and I went out to Denny's tonight for supper (special occasion) and it didn't seem too bad, at least the price was quite reasonable.

 

[countryboy]

I am hoping that this H.S.T. cloud as it applies to restaurants may have a silver lining in that all the junk joints like McD's and Burger King will just bite the dust and a few who offer wholesome food at a reasonable price will survive. My wife and I went out to Denny's tonight for supper (special occasion) and it didn't seem too bad, at least the price was quite reasonable.

Never thought about that, but it makes some sense, JLM. No question the fast food joints will take a hit. Do you think it's possible that Gordo and company are ramming the HST through for our own good? :lol::lol::lol:

 

[talloola]

You're likely right on that one, Kreskin. I used to handle it differently...my daughters at that age only went to McDonald's when I allowed them to...about every 3 months, if they were lucky.

I go into McDonalds once every 5 years or so, can't remember why, but even I, (and I'm not 6), wouldn't go
in there for the salad, I would at least have a big mac,
(do they still have them?), and that would tell me why
I only go in there every 5 years.

 

[countryboy]

I go into McDonalds once every 5 years or so, can't remember why, but even I, (and I'm not 6), wouldn't go
in there for the salad, I would at least have a big mac,
(do they still have them?), and that would tell me why
I only go in there every 5 years.

If it weren't for that evil beef in their burgers, I'd likely go in there once every 5 years too. However, having been in big meat packing joints too many times, I can't stomach the thought of eating a "manure burger" in a fast food restaurant. I could handle the sesame seed bun, and a pickle and mustard, but the "beef?" No way - I know where it comes from! Besides, why bother with the salad? You could thrown together some lettuce and a few slivers of veggies at home for around 1/7th the cost and end up with a better one anyway.

Is it the friendly service that attracts people? Maybe the quiet, relaxing atmosphere, conducive to good digestion? The fine china and cutlery? Or is it just the plush, comfy furniture? I'm stumped. :lol: