Famous Abortionist given Order of Canada!

[dancing-loon]

Wouldn't happen to have a link to that study would you Loon?

Sorry, Tonington... I can't find it right now, but I did copy all that was there, there was nothing else. Maybe this will serve as an additional read:
http://www.afterabortion.org/PAR/V9/n1/teens_vs_older.html

If you have the time, just play a while with google, you might be lucky!

 

[lone wolf]

Do you drive DL ... or ride in a car, or cross streets? Your chances of death are MUCH higher. It comes down to the fact that abortion is a choice. You don't have to like it. I don't have to like it. I didn't like heart surgery either. Lemme tell you all the scarey shyte involved with that....

 

[Praxius]

Wow, Coldstream!!... where have you been hiding? I'm happy and so pleased to read your supporting post. I almost felt like a hunted deer with no place to run to, but having to face the raging hunters!!:lol:;-);-) Thank God, I have a few years under my belt and don't keel over at the first bullet.
Nice meeting you!:smile:

Well I'm not hunting you.... I'm just claiming the decision is not any of your business, my business, or anybody else's business and the Dr. made it become this way, and allowed the rights of the woman to choose what happens to her own body to be rellivent.... and I think fighting for womens rights (Even if you disagree with the rights) while risking his own life from religious wings nuts who love to have their hands into every orifice of our lives, who wanted to harm, fire-bomb and/or possibly kill him.... I feel he should get the honor.

It's people like him who are willing to risk their lives for overall principles of an individuals' rights and to make change, who I think should get noticed for their sacrafices.

Added:

I don't think blood transfusions, life support systems, DNA modification on egg cells, clonning and organ transplants should be practiced or be an option.... but I'm not trying to fight for those things being made illegal, because it is not my place to dictate to you all what choices you can or can not have.... I will decide for myself on those things, where it relates to me.... and I would expect other's to do the same.

 

[dancing-loon]

Yes Loon, they are feeble. As are the arguments against choice or limiting choice based on circumstances. Those rape-cause issues are pushed primarily by those who feel only their reasons and values matter. You know, those who believe they've cornered the market on morals and ethics and that everyone must pass their standards to live their lives. What business is it of anyone's what reason is chosen? If my daughter was raped I wouldn't expect her to first stand in a court room and tell the world what happened (or a doctor) and beg for the approval of the righteous. It's no one's bloody business but hers, and that's the entire point.

That's sooo understandable, Kreskin. I, in my younger years, might have done the same, if confronted with that situation. Note, I said might. Because I believe in Karma, and life before and after death, my thinking is a little different from the strictly materialistic and no-God people. Please, no offense intended... I don't know your religious thinking, but it seems that for you and many others life starts at birth and ends at death. Period!

 

[coldstream]

The best way for the BC Priest to protest is to go and f him self. Who is he to protest with his f metal? The Church for many years have been harboring closet perverts who call them self’s brothers of priest hood while sexually abusing young men. The church should shut the f uck up they are morally bank robed, they do not have the proper massage from god in their mouths, they pretend they do. many of the priests are sexual predators hiding in a black robe.

Regardless of the merit of this priest's protest, the OC has now been sullied and politicized, perhaps beyond repair. A honour that was originally meant as a symbol of unity and common purpose has now been made one of division, as can be seen from this thread.

Supreme Court Justice Beverly McLachlin, who pushed this award through, has used her position to promote a rabid feminist ideology and proven herself morally and intellectually incompetent for her position. Morgantaler, this divisive, unworthy cannibal, with the blood of thousands of infants on his hands will never be an example for Canadians of good faith.

All this has really done is turn to OC into so much tin. If i had one, i'd give it back, so as not to clutter my closet or my conscience.

 

[coldstream]

Wow, Coldstream!!... where have you been hiding? I'm happy and so pleased to read your supporting post. I almost felt like a hunted deer with no place to run to, but having to face the raging hunters!!:lol:;-);-) Thank God, I have a few years under my belt and don't keel over at the first bullet.
Nice meeting you!:smile:

Thanx, dancing-loon.. unfortunately we appear to be rare birds.. there are lots of people out there who are deeply troubled by abortion. And realize that it will ultimately have a devastating impact on all aspects of our society, but simply would rather not think about or form an opinion of the appalling mechanics of abortion (there are websites that show children being torn apart by suction hoses wielded by Dr. Morgantaler and his ilk). They would rather be silent and wait for the grim reaper to come knocking on their own door. Birds of a feather need to stick together. :smile:

 

[Praxius]

That's sooo understandable, Kreskin. I, in my younger years, might have done the same, if confronted with that situation. Note, I said might. Because I believe in Karma, and life before and after death, my thinking is a little different from the strictly materialistic and no-God people. Please, no offense intended... I don't know your religious thinking, but it seems that for you and many others life starts at birth and ends at death. Period!

I know this wasn't directed to me, but I would like to take this opportunity to explain a bit of my own beliefs towards birth.

We all (or most) talk about our bodies as being vessels for our spirits/souls/consciousness.... and when we die we pass beyond our physical form into something else, whatever that is you wish to believe.

If this is to be the case, then I believe that the fetus/unborn child is just a shell, a body waiting for your spirit/soul/consciousness, and the moment you take your first independant breath outside of the womb, is when your spirit/soul/consciousness enters the body of the infant. If the fetus fails through complications in development or through an abortion, the soul remains where it was before and there is no real death of an individual, because that individual's life has yet to start.

In other words, think of it this way:

You planned for and get pregnant and wish to have a child.... halfway through the pregnancy something happens and there is a miscarriage. You attempt to have a second baby and everything goes well, the baby is born and started it's life..... who is to say that the spirit/soul/consciousness in the new baby isn't the same one in which would have been in the first baby which miscarried?

AKA: our spirits/souls/consciousness wait for a healthy vessel that can survive birth befire it takes possession of that vessel.

Now many might argue the fact that fetuses move and react within the womb of the mother and therefore must be alive. To them, I relate them back to typical body, muscle and sensory development within the womb, where arms and legs will twich and move due to reflex as the muscles are being developed, similar to the fetus inhaling and ex-haling the fluid within the womb due to breathing reflex and development of the lungs..... none of which can be proven as life.

Similar to how an insect or chicken's body moves or twiches around after their heads are cut off, it is merely reflex.

Therefore, based on my own personal beliefs, there is no death during an abortion, because there is no consciousness that can be proven, which brings me to the conclusion that there is nothing wrong with Abortions and there is no such thing as millions of babies being murdered each year, because they are not babies.... they are fetuses.

And then you get on the whole issue as to when life begins.... as stated above, I believe it begins once you take your first independant breath (Intake of the soul if you will)

If you want to start claiming you're alive within the womb before birth, then how far back does one go? When it begins to look like a human? When it begins to have eyes? As soon as the egg is fertilized? The egg itself prior to being fertilized therefore all eggs are alive?

Eventually it just becomes pretty crazy when you try and label something where there is no solid evidence proving one way or another. (Which is exactly what everybody is doing in this debate including myself, since none of us truly know.... which is why it's divided in debate to begin with)

 

[dancing-loon]

Well I'm not hunting you.... I'm just claiming the decision is not any of your business, my business, or anybody else's business and the Dr. made it become this way, and allowed the rights of the woman to choose what happens to her own body to be rellivent.... and I think fighting for womens rights (Even if you disagree with the rights) while risking his own life from religious wings nuts who love to have their hands into every orifice of our lives, who wanted to harm, fire-bomb and/or possibly kill him.... I feel he should get the honor.

It's people like him who are willing to risk their lives for overall principles of an individuals' rights and to make change, who I think should get noticed for their sacrifices.

Added:

I don't think blood transfusions, life support systems, DNA modification on egg cells, cloning and organ transplants should be practiced or be an option.... but I'm not trying to fight for those things being made illegal, because it is not my place to dictate to you all what choices you can or can not have.... I will decide for myself on those things, where it relates to me.... and I would expect other's to do the same.

Praxi... I have great respect and admiration for you, because you are always truthful about and courageous to stand up for your opinions, be it abortion or any other subjects that have been discussed here.

We are having a discussion about a certain subject, not a witch hunt. Every opinion is valid, except those of personal downgrading and deliberate insults.
In my eyes you are still a wonderful person I especially value as a no-nonsense debater, despite our differing view on the abortion/Morgentaler issue.
One thing is most peculiar here... a lot of pro-choicers are men!! Am I missing something?;-)

P.S. At least we have the same feelings about blood transfusions etc.

 

[lone wolf]

Pro choice does not equate to pro abortion.

There are still some folks out there who believe masturbation is a sin because you're spilling the seed....

 

[dancing-loon]

Praxius and Wolf... forgive me for not answering right now, I simply have to move to get my circulation revved up for a while. I shall be back later tonight.

 

[Kreskin]

That's sooo understandable, Kreskin. I, in my younger years, might have done the same, if confronted with that situation. Note, I said might. Because I believe in Karma, and life before and after death, my thinking is a little different from the strictly materialistic and no-God people. Please, no offense intended... I don't know your religious thinking, but it seems that for you and many others life starts at birth and ends at death. Period!

I support your freedom to believe what you want, as long as you don't force your own beliefs on my family. If you're are catholic and your religion dictated what I could or couldn't do, I wouldn't have a family right now, and that's a fact. So when I see the people of God trying to run other peoples reproductive lives I take it pretty seriously.

One thing is most peculiar here... a lot of pro-choicers are men!! Am I missing something?;-)

Personal rights aren't gender specific. If government has the ability to take away your rights they have the ability to take away mine.

 

[Praxius]

One thing is most peculiar here... a lot of pro-choicers are men!! Am I missing something?;-)

Well I can't find any studies to confirm your comment on which gender is more pro-choice.... but perhaps why most men are pro-choice, is it might help reduce the chances they'll have all their income and home milked away in custody/divorce battles if no child exists

That and I imagine women are more for having children in their lives then men.

It could also be that women are fearful of the label that would be put on them by their community if they spoke out, so they remain quiet until the situation comes their way where they will have to make a decision.

But regardless of which gender believes in Pro-Choice or Pro-Life.... The choice and decisions in which directly affect yourself should be put in the hands of yourself, no matter what that situation may be..... be that medical/assisted suicide, abortions, some risky operation/proceedure, or working at McDonald's for the rest of your life.

 

[Praxius]

I support your freedom to believe what you want, as long as you don't force your own beliefs on my family. If you're are catholic and your religion dictated what I could or couldn't do, I wouldn't have a family right now, and that's a fact. So when I see the people of God trying to run other peoples reproductive lives I take it pretty seriously.

One thing I would like to add to this, is:

Why are christians afraid of non-believers having abortions anyways? Wouldn't that mean later on there would be less non-believers and more christians in the world? I figured the system this way would work in your guy's favor ;-)

 

[Zzarchov]

yes, that could be. I have an adopted grandchild, and know the mother is o.k., she married and has two children = normal family. She has met her first-born a couple of times and is in touch with my daughter... it's an open and friendly relationship, with grandparents included and visiting as well. This reaching-out to her by my daughter has made the situation less traumatic for all involved, I think. This is probably a rarity. In most cases, especially from decades ago, mother and child never meet again. This is for many adopted children also a chip on their shouldersWe are talking about Canada, Zarkov! I have seen several young, unmarried mothers with their kid or kids, being taken care of by social services. I respect these girls for keeping and raising their children!Yes, a miscarriage is very tough on a woman, but that has nothing to do with Dr. Morgentaler! Any other "dangerous complication" has always been handled in a way that the life of the mother takes priority. I agree with that, because what good is it for the baby, if it doesn't have a mother? Sure, the Dad and other relatives would and could take care of the baby.By all means, then let's murder a million babies to have a hundred criminals less to deal with!!:roll:I know, Zarkov, a bunch of you pro-choicers have chosen to put my head on the butcher block!:lol: This abortion issue has always been hotly debated, because we have strong emotions attached to it. My position is pro-life, and that is, among other reasons, because I have given birth to several children. IF I would imagine to have had any one of them aborted for no other reason than inconvenience, I would be very, very sad, but because I let the child live I see what a beautiful person it has become. And here is another aspect of blanket abortion... we never even consider whom we are flushing down the toilet!! The gift, the talents, the love, and the life this trusting spirit would have brought into the world... all gone!!:--(
Decisions for an abortion are most often made in haste and bad advice, because the sooner - the better and less complicated.
In my opinion Mr. M. could have used his love and devotion for women in a much more constructive way by establishing counseling, educating and generally supporting and comforting facilities. I would have admiration for him instead of disgust.
Sure, he is heralded by many as a woman liberator! It is all a matter of the individual's level of consciousness, and it is great to have the freedom to choose as well as the obligation to accept and bear the responsibilities that go along with that choice.

The main problem here is you don't have a coherent reason to be against abortion.

If the fetus is a person, then you should not in any way legally be allowed to abort, even if the mothers life is in danger.

You can't murder an innocent baby, ever. Even if the mothers life is in danger.

Even if the baby is a product of incestous rape.



If abortion is wrong on the grounds its killing a baby (murder) then its always wrong, no exceptions (unless you can think of a time its ok to murder a 2 year old toddler).

And I don't agree with that. I don't agree a fetus is a person.


I also don't like the term "pro-life", because Im pro-life too.


Hell, since the opposing view is that fetuses are not alive, everyone who is pro-choice is also pro-life.

Its really Pro-abortion and Anti-Abortion.

I'd settle for everyone being forced to call it pro-slavery and pro-murder though, then everyone could be equally indignant.

 

[dancing-loon]

Because there can and will be many other unforeseen situations that are not covered under sexual assault or health complications.... and besides that, back before he opened the door as you say, those who still got abortions when they had no other choice were treated like scum by the super religious, and still made the availability to choose to do so, or to find a clinic that would do it, next to impossible.

First of all, explain to me what a super religious person looks and acts like. If you want to label me by any chance as such a person, and who would treat your girlfriend like scum, because she had an abortion, then we should stop right here!!

I believe there is a God, I believe in the teachings of Christ, and I believe at this point in my evolution in Reincarnation. Are those the marks of a super religious person? I am not a member of any church or group or whatsoever. And it is because of my belief that I accept and respect anybody. I believe we are all here to learn and develop, so we can become like Christ eventually. And because it takes many life-times, we have to come back over and over. The only way we can enter earth again is through conception and birth. If a woman aborts she denies the Spirit/Soul that opportunity, as well she destroys the body the Soul had started to build. It is a sad and chaotic experience on both sides!

He at least made it possible for the practice to be more accepted than before, giving the women a safe place to get it done, as well as giving some protection to the doctors who perform such operations.

Yes, I have to agree that he improved the access and availability. A safe place, I believe, was available already in any hospital. He removed all legal barriers, so that Canada stands unique in the world without any regulations at all. Mr. Morgentaler acted to the best of his conscience and understanding. To many pregnant women he was the savior. But he totally disregarded the life of the fetus, the body that was developing inside the womb.

And once again, even if a couple or a woman wanted to get rid of their baby just because they didn't want it and for no other reasons...... why is it any of your business? Why is it anybody else's business other than their own? It's their body and the fetus created was created by their body's resources and they can have the fetus ripped out of them just like a useless apendix if they so wish.

I won't look, because it would break me!! But yes, go ahead and do it... you are protected by the law!! Praxi, you are an individual but you are also a part of a much bigger whole, called humanity. The way humanity treats its unborn, its children, its handicapped, its elderly, and its prisoners defines it from barbaric to spiritually refined. In Canada right now the unborn has no protection, no right even to be born at least.
To me that is sad! Tragic for all of us, because we are all connected.

And so we all, as a community, stand mutely and meekly by while millions of babies get ripped apart by the powerful suction pumps, little fingers and toes and other bits and pieces, all gets flushed down the sewer pipes.
And Praxi says to Loon, 'don't cry... it was just a lump of meat!' That's where we differ!

People sometimes need to take out the emotional appeal of a situation to just get down to the cold hard truth.... their decisions and actions are out of your control, not that you should have had control in the first place over another human being.

No, no control... that's not what I wanted anyway, because then I would be absorbed in your karma. But I would like to discuss the matter with you before you go ahead with the abortion. I would like you to try and understand my point of view.

And to me, You're not human and you're not born until you take your first independant breath outside of the womb and detached from the mother.... until then, you're a fetus, I'm a fetus, everybody is a fetus.... feeding and living directly from within the mother, and any and all actions the mother takes, the fetus takes as well.... it's entire structure is set up to be completely dependant on the mother. Until the Fetus becomes independant on it's own organs, it isn't a human being in my view.

Alright, now we come to the crux of the matter! That lump is not human until it comes into the light and starts breathing? Although it had a pumping heart, and looked exactly like a miniature human... no. it's not human, says Praxi, it first has to take a deep breath and then, only then it is a human being!! What a miracle!! We now call it a baby! ;-) Do you suppose that at this first breath the spirit/soul entered the little body? while prior to that it was just a lump attached to the mother and could at any time be destroyed without impact on the spirit/soul?

Agree or Agree to disagree... it matters not to me.

Why ask then?:-?

 

[dancing-loon]

The main problem here is you don't have a coherent reason to be against abortion.

I don't?

If the fetus is a person, then you should not in any way legally be allowed to abort, even if the mothers life is in danger.

We are humans, not Gods yet. So we make the best decision we are able to with the knowledge we have.
Do you know Tolstoi? He wrote a story of an angel who had to go down to earth and take the life of a mother who had just given birth to twins. He couldn't do it! So he pleaded with God, but no, he had to go back and bring the mother's soul to heaven, leaving the twin babies to their fate. Because of his refusal the angel had to go and live as a human on earth to learn three lessons. The one was "man does not know what he needs". That is very true! He worked for a shoemaker. One day a big fat man came in his troika and brought him the finest leather money could buy, and he wanted a pair of boots made that would last a long time. To the shoemakers horror the angel made a pair of death shoes! a few days later the big man's wife came and said her husband had died and he needed death shoes, no boots. The angel gave her the shoes he had made.

And so it is with us, we do not know whether to save the mother's life or the baby's life. We do the best we can.

You can't murder an innocent baby, ever. Even if the mothers life is in danger. Even if the baby is a product of incestous rape..

See above.

If abortion is wrong on the grounds its killing a baby (murder) then its always wrong, no exceptions (unless you can think of a time its ok to murder a 2 year old toddler). And I don't agree with that. I don't agree a fetus is a person.

Could it be a human being? We always end up at the point where it is a lump one moment and a person the next. I don't make that hairsplitting distinction,so I can get away with a clean conscience having an abortion. I cannot speak for other mothers! They make their decisions and accept the consequences, known as well as unknown. As I answered Praxius, I care about the unborn... because I don't see it as just a lump of meat, no soul, no spirit.

I also don't like the term "pro-life", because Im pro-life too.

I'm sure we all are pro-life! It is just a term, change it if you don't like it.

Hell, since the opposing view is that fetuses are not alive, everyone who is pro-choice is also pro-life.

Its really Pro-abortion and Anti-Abortion.

I'd settle for everyone being forced to call it pro-slavery and pro-murder though, then everyone could be equally indignant.

Great!! :lol:

 

[L Gilbert]

Doctor Henry's views are not my own ... but then again, it's not my body. Really, if it's used as birth control, I think it's wrong. That's only my opinion. What is wrong for me isn't necessarily wrong for everybody. The way I see it, as long as the woman can live with her decision, then it's the right one for her - and a clinical setting is a LOT better than the backstreet butcher option before Doctor Henry opened the doors.

Pretty much echoes my views, too, and I'll add that for other people to lay heavy guilt trips on these women isn't exactly what I would call humane. Also, I would hardly think that these self-righteous people are guilt free of some things themselves: the first one being vanity, that they'd think themselves worthy of judging others in the first place.
Anyway, I admire the guy. It is his oath to do no harm. That put's doctors in some extremely difficult positions when they have to choose one harm or the other or abstain.

 

[dancing-loon]

Well I can't find any studies to confirm your comment on which gender is more pro-choice.... but perhaps why most men are pro-choice, is it might help reduce the chances they'll have all their income and home milked away in custody/divorce battles if no child exists

That and I imagine women are more for having children in their lives then men.

It could also be that women are fearful of the label that would be put on them by their community if they spoke out, so they remain quiet until the situation comes their way where they will have to make a decision.

But regardless of which gender believes in Pro-Choice or Pro-Life.... The choice and decisions in which directly affect yourself should be put in the hands of yourself, no matter what that situation may be..... be that medical/assisted suicide, abortions, some risky operation/proceedure, or working at McDonald's for the rest of your life.

Yes, it does put a financial burden on the man, he can't afford his golf membership anymore!!:lol:I think, it took two to tango, therefore both should carry the responsibility somewhat equally amongst them.
I can imagine that between harmonizing couples the decision to keep the baby or terminate the pregnancy is made by both of them. The Father is as much involved and affected by whatever decision is made.

 

[dancing-loon]

I support your freedom to believe what you want, as long as you don't force your own beliefs on my family. If you're are catholic and your religion dictated what I could or couldn't do, I wouldn't have a family right now, and that's a fact. So when I see the people of God trying to run other peoples reproductive lives I take it pretty seriously.


Personal rights aren't gender specific. If government has the ability to take away your rights they have the ability to take away mine.

I have no thoughts of forcing anything on your family. I don't understand why you are so aggressive towards me.

 

[dancing-loon]

Do you drive DL ... or ride in a car, or cross streets? Your chances of death are MUCH higher. It comes down to the fact that abortion is a choice. You don't have to like it. I don't have to like it. I didn't like heart surgery either. Lemme tell you all the scarey shyte involved with that....

Agreed! Take care of your heart!!!