Essential features of the apostle of God

[Downhome_Woman]

Einasser - Bottom line. Your prophet didn't say anything that any other religious person has said - except he actually decided to get his hordes together and actually forcibly convert them (or, as we see with the djimmis, impose lucrative taxes on them - heck get them by forcible conversion or imposed djimi taxes - a good deal, either way, don't you agree?)
In fact, while it may have been the followers of Christ that preached hatred, he actually didn't. Whereas your guy? Yup. He didn't like those that didn't tow the line...Funny how he figured that the Jews of the Arabian Gulf would just fall in line, and then when they didn't? NO MORE MISTER NICE GUY!!!!All of a sudden Jerusalem is a no go when it comes to directional praying!I know I offend you, but I find Islam to be a shallow derivitive religion. Yes he says 'nice stuff', but it's no nicer that the other 2 'book religions' that came before'. It's just a another copy.

 

[eanassir]

''God divorced Israel''


I believe we discussed that a while ago in another thread. Roman 11 clearly shows that divorcement did NOT take place:


King James Version: Romans Chapter 11

The Romans was written by Saul: Paul.

Maximum enthusiasm is very evident from the first lines.

In the text that you quoted, it is obvious that Saul: Paul affirmed his racial belonging.

The depending of Christians on some words that are not the words of Jesus himself, have lead to their enthusiasm and distorted their doctrine from pure monotheism into glorifying Jesus himself rather than glorifying God That sent him just like the rest of the apostles.

Anyhow, God will not leave his servants if they repent and reform their deeds and obey the apostles particularly the most important of all the Commandments there is no god besides God Almighty.

In fact there were some prophets among the Children of Israel in Babylon like: Ezechiel and Daniel; while the Babylonians were idolaters, and only were empowered against the Israelites because these latter disobeyed the apostles and worshipped the idols and associated their religious figures together with God.

And this was before the coming of Jesus - salam be to him.

Then when they returned from Babylon, the priest Ezra wrote for them his Torah, which included much increment, ommited statements and many lies and mistakes as in the links:
The Disagreement of the
The Disagreement of the

So they had a distorted religion and felt again in the enthusiasm about Ezra himself and many other leaders.

Then when Jesus came they refused him, and the kingdom of God was taken from them to be given to another nation that should work according to God's commandments.

If we study the Christianity very well, we shall find it faraway from the religion of God as taught by all the prophets and apostles, in addition their gospel became many editions and many gospels; and the matter is confused.

So this is the necessity of the Glorious Quran as it teaches man the pure devotion to God alone, and to believe in all the apostles and in all the Commandments of God and the books that he revealed to His prophets.

http://www.quran-ayat.com/conflict/index.htm​

 

[Cliffy]

And you don't show enthusiasm for the Quran? or Mohammad? or for the Arab race? Your belief in the Quran is no different than those who think the bible is the word of god. It is just a guide book but your enthusiasm would convert the whole world to your vision of god by conviction or by force. You are no different from your fellow Muslims who think strapping on a bomb will garner favour from Allah.

 

[eanassir]

Jeremiah 3 is a very complicated part of the Old Testament but it well worth reading in depth.

So here the Book of Jeremiah has become very complicated!

Here, the threat of divorce was with the Northern Tribes, not the Southern where Judah is the biggest tribal grouping. God proclaims that the tribes are ''adulterers'' who worship idols and gives a 'divorce' (verse .

No, He said: the "harlot Israel" made adultery with stone and tree. Then said her sister Juda saw and in spite defiled all the land with its fornication. Then said: He gave Israel the bill of divorce.

But he exhorts Israel to return (verse 12) so that the divorcement was not concluded. He proclaims that he is ''married unto you'' (verse 14) and promises restoration of inheritance (verse 1 if they comply with his instructions.

No, the divorce is concluded by giving Israel her divorce bill.
http://www.quran-ayat.com/conflict/english2.htm

''Truly in the Lord our God is the salvation of Israel'' (verse 23). Therefore, it proves that divorcement did not become finalized.

The salvation of all the world is in the Lord God.

And to prove this: I tell you the consequence of this divorce: He empowered her enemy: the Babylonian against Israel who destroyed them utterly.

http://www.quran-ayat.com/conflict/english2.htm

 

[eanassir]

'' Matthews 21: 43
“Therefore I say to you that the kingdom of God shall be taken from you [Jews] and shall be given to a nation** yielding the fruits thereof.”] ''


This is from eanassir's link. It shows Jesus parables in which the chief priests and Pharisees were being warned that they risked forfeiture of the inheritance for their evil teachings. It goes on to say that the kingdom '' shall be given to a nation bringing forth the fruits'' - that is, to people who are not corrupted by their false teachings. If anything this part of the link shows that the divorce was not concluded in Old Testament times and completely refutes eanassir's earlier point. The record shows thereafter that many Jews did convert to his teachings and this insured their inheritance.

There are many versions of the Gospel in English and Arabic and most of the languages; in an Arabic version, we see: The kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation that "work" or "do" and not "bring forth" or "yield" its fruits. It means: work according to God's commands. While you interpreted it: to people who are not corrupted by their false.

And you said: "many Jews did convert to his teachings":

I say: Of course many Jews converted (as did also converted to the Islam); but the majority denied and this required their punishment by Titus the Roman leader at 70 AM

And this lead his disciples to seek other peoples and nations to convert them to Christianity.

And of course God will not leave his servants: whether Israelis or not and even He did not leave the people of Nineveh after they disobeyed Jonah then they repented and resorted to God alone and deserted their idolatry.

So I tell you, God gives them chance or opportunity:
· Would they believe in God alone and their apostles and desert the idols: no, most of them did not believe → so they deserved the punishment: Nabuchodonosor.

· Would they believe in God alone and Jesus His apostle: no, most of them did not believe → so they deserved the punishment: Titus the Roman leader.

· Would they believe in God alone and Mohammed His apostle: no, most of them did not believe →punished more and more.

· Will they believe in God alone and the Mahdi→ their terminal punishment.
(Although it is written that thousands of them will follow the Mahdi and will be saved.)

<http://www.quran-ayat.com/conflict/english2.htm#In_The_Last_Days_>​

 

[gopher]

Eanasser,

Your posts repeat what you have written and do not refute what I've written. Again, if you still insist that the Koran is divine revelation, then so be it.

 

[Cliffy]

If one believes that god created all things, then wouldn't it stand to reason that we are all divinely inspired?

 

[Downhome_Woman]

There are many versions of the Gospel in English and Arabic and most of the languages; in an Arabic version, we see: The kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation that "work" or "do" and not "bring forth" or "yield" its fruits. It means: work according to God's commands. While you interpreted it: to people who are not corrupted by their false.

And you said: "many Jews did convert to his teachings":

I say: Of course many Jews converted (as did also converted to the Islam); but the majority denied and this required their punishment by Titus the Roman leader at 70 AM

And this lead his disciples to seek other peoples and nations to convert them to Christianity.

And of course God will not leave his servants: whether Israelis or not and even He did not leave the people of Nineveh after they disobeyed Jonah then they repented and resorted to God alone and deserted their idolatry.

So I tell you, God gives them chance or opportunity:
· Would they believe in God alone and their apostles and desert the idols: no, most of them did not believe → so they deserved the punishment: Nabuchodonosor.

· Would they believe in God alone and Jesus His apostle: no, most of them did not believe → so they deserved the punishment: Titus the Roman leader.

· Would they believe in God alone and Mohammed His apostle: no, most of them did not believe →punished more and more.

· Will they believe in God alone and the Mahdi→ their terminal punishment.
(Although it is written that thousands of them will follow the Mahdi and will be saved.)

<http://www.quran-ayat.com/conflict/english2.htm#In_The_Last_Days_>​

Tell me Einasser - how can you make - force someone believe? i look at your faith, and I look at the Christian faith that i was brought up in and I just can't believe either of them.
the only begotten son of god? genesis tells me different when it speaks of the sons of God coming down upon the daughters of men and finding them fair. the New Testament also speaks of Mary laying her first born son in a manger - and your prophet? until he arrived there were no legends or myths in the Arabia Peninsula that would point to Abraham or Isaac or Ismael. they only appeared with Mohammad - who traveled extensively throughout the Middle East and at one time worked for or with a Jewish trader. and I'm not even taking into account the actual Jewish tribes that lived in the Peninsula before they were driven out and persecuted because they would not abandon their faith and convert to Islam.
You are essentially telling people that unless they convert (wwhether they believe or not) - they will die. And lets face it - it's not going to actually be Allah who will do the smoting, it'll be his followers - they're the ones who'll be making those decisions as to who lives or dies or lives in djimmitude ( actually not a bad option for the rulers - they get all the $$$ from the taxes imposed on the non-believing people of the book)There you are - telling me that i should find joy in a religion that tells me should know my place (even the prophet didn't say that to Khadjia - she worked and actually supported him while he was on his 'quest' - AND he took her counsel) and that I MUST believe or suffer horrible consequences.
No - I think I'll stay far away from Christianity AND Islam.Your people might, but I don't think that God - Allah - whatever - is going to smote me for being an honest unbeliever

 

[eanassir]

Eanasser,

Your posts repeat what you have written and do not refute what I've written.

Gopher, not exactly so.

Again, if you still insist that the Koran is divine revelation, then so be it.

The Quran is certainly revealed from God as the last heavenly book.

It is up to people to beleive whatever they want; and it is up to God to deal with his servants according to their belief and work.

باللغة العربية

 

[Downhome_Woman]

Gopher, not exactly so.



The Quran is certainly revealed from God as the last heavenly book.

It is up to people to beleive whatever they want; and it is up to God to deal with his servants according to their belief and work.

باللغة العربية

How do you know? Just because your prophet chose to say that his was the last revelation doesn't make it so. I can claim many things - you could claim many things but the fact of your claiming them doesn't make it so.
As far as your remarks regarding it being up to god to deal with his servants, why is it always the people who do the actual interpreting and carrying out what they 'feel' god wants them to do? that's not god dealing, that's man choosing to interpret what he thinks is god's word.
by the way, you seem to be ignoring me.

 

[eanassir]

And you don't show enthusiasm for the Quran? or Mohammad? or for the Arab race?

What is the enthusiasm?​

The enthusiasm is that man will love someone very much and exceedingly, until the remembrance of his beloved one will occupy his mind, and his work will not be dedicated exclusively to God alone, but that the beloved one will be associated with God in man's thinking and work.​

In other words: it is the exaggeration of loving anyone (usually a prophet, a king or a religious leader) to the extent that this beloved one will be glorified as should God be glorified; then the mind and the work of people will not be exclusive to God alone.​

E.g. the enthusiasm about Jesus Christ: they loved him exceedingly, then glorified him, then admired him very much so they attributed to him the attributes of God, and considered him the son of God then that he is God Himself; and of course this is the maximum enthusiasm about any man.​

Another example: Jews started to glorify the priest Ezra until they said he was like Moses, then went further in their exaggeration and enthusiasm, to the extent that some of them said: Ezra is the son of God.​

A third example: Some Muslims are enthusiastic about Imam Ali – salam be to him – so they said: Imam Ali knew all the knowledge and science of the past and the future nations, and all the knowledge that will be acquired till Doomsday.​

While there has been some enthusiasm about Prophet Mohammed, and it is comparatively very little;
because it is emphasized in the Quran that Mohammed is the servant of God in many many ayat; like this aya 7: 188​

قُل لاَّ أَمْلِكُ لِنَفْسِي نَفْعًا وَلاَ ضَرًّا إِلاَّ مَا شَاء اللّهُ وَلَوْ كُنتُ أَعْلَمُ الْغَيْبَ لاَسْتَكْثَرْتُ مِنَ الْخَيْرِ وَمَا مَسَّنِيَ السُّوءُ إِنْ أَنَاْ إِلاَّ نَذِيرٌ وَبَشِيرٌ لِّقَوْمٍ يُؤْمِنُونَ​

The explanation:

(Say [O Mohammed, to them]: "I cannot bring any profit, nor avert any hurt from myself, but only which God wills. ​

Had I knowledge of the forefuture, I should have had abundance of wealth, and adversity would not have touched me. ​

I am only a warner [against idolatry], and a bearer of good tidings [of Paradise] to a people believing.)​

And this aya 18: 110​

قُلْ إِنَّمَا أَنَا بَشَرٌ مِّثْلُكُمْ يُوحَى إِلَيَّ أَنَّمَا إِلَهُكُمْ إِلَهٌ وَاحِدٌ فَمَن كَانَ يَرْجُو لِقَاء رَبِّهِ فَلْيَعْمَلْ عَمَلًا صَالِحًا وَلَا يُشْرِكْ بِعِبَادَةِ رَبِّهِ أَحَدًا​

The explanation:

(Say [Mohammed to them]: "I am only a human being like yourselves; [but] I am inspired that your God is only One God. ​

Then let him who hopes to meet his Lord work righteous works, and associate none in worshipping his Lord.)​

And it is the first word that man utters when he converts to the Islam, is that he should say:​

I admit that there is no god other than God alone without associate,
and I admit that Mohammed is the servant and apostle of God.​

http://www.quran-ayat.com/​

 

[eanassir]

How do you know? Just because your prophet chose to say that his was the last revelation doesn't make it so. I can claim many things - you could claim many things but the fact of your claiming them doesn't make it so.
As far as your remarks regarding it being up to god to deal with his servants, why is it always the people who do the actual interpreting and carrying out what they 'feel' god wants them to do? that's not god dealing, that's man choosing to interpret what he thinks is god's word.
by the way, you seem to be ignoring me.

What shall I say to you, when all your words you say without any proof or evidence?

 

[Cliffy]

I admit that there is no god other than God alone without associate,
and I admit that Mohammed is the servant and apostle of God.

You still hold the man in high esteem because you believe everything he wrote was inspired by god. That would make him more special than any other person. It is only one degree from deifying him. Your obsession with the Quran is nothing short of idolatry. Your god is only one of many. Just because you think he is the top banana, doesn't necessarily make it so. There is an equal chance that you are just as wrong as the believers in other gods. Your god is not what you say it is just because you say so and Mohammad was just a man with all the weaknesses and was just a corruptible as any other man.

I went directly to the source, the creator and guess what? It tells me you are farting in the wind.
​

 

[eanassir]

Tell me Einasser - how can you make - force someone believe? i look at your faith, and I look at the Christian faith that i was brought up in and I just can't believe either of them.

Be assured no one will force you :-|

 

[AnnaG]

What shall I say to you, when all your words you say without any proof or evidence?

The same as people say to you when you have no proof or evidence. All you've shown so far is words from a book the a human wrote. Well, sorry, but there's no more proof of those words being true than there is in Grimm's Fairy Tales or Mother Goose Nursery Rhymes.

 

[gopher]

''The Quran is certainly revealed from God as the last heavenly book.
It is up to people to beleive whatever they want; and it is up to God to deal with his servants according to their belief and work.''


As you wish. But for the future, I suggest that you attempt to understand that merely repeating a certain idea constitutes circulatory argumentation to Westerners like myself. We prefer answers that are concrete.

I have a Muslim friend who uses the same type of circulatory reasoning as you do.
When I challenge him or his religion to produce the type of miracles stated in the Bible or Koran he merely points to the Koran and says ''here is your miracle''. And as most Westerners say, my reply is 'this is merely a book, not a miracle'. When I asked for proof of his claims he merely repeats what he just said. When I asked very challenging questions he replied by saying these are questions I must not ask. When I ask, 'why can I not ask?' his reply is 'because you mustn't ask'. Thereafter I said, sorry, but that reply is not good enough for me.

As always, he repeats his claims but fails to produce evidence to support them.

My Muslim friend (a Shiia) told me he thought I would be the perfect Muslim as I am very contemplative and am the type of person who seeks justice for all. While I found his statement flattering, I had to tell him, no, I could not be a Muslim as I am the type to demand concreteness in ideas and actions. Therefore, I could never be a Muslim but will respect people's right to believe as they wish.

 

[eanassir]

''The Quran is certainly revealed from God as the last heavenly book.
It is up to people to beleive whatever they want; and it is up to God to deal with his servants according to their belief and work.''


As you wish. But for the future, I suggest that you attempt to understand that merely repeating a certain idea constitutes circulatory argumentation to Westerners like myself. We prefer answers that are concrete.

I have a Muslim friend who uses the same type of circulatory reasoning as you do.
When I challenge him or his religion to produce the type of miracles stated in the Bible or Koran he merely points to the Koran and says ''here is your miracle''. And as most Westerners say, my reply is 'this is merely a book, not a miracle'. When I asked for proof of his claims he merely repeats what he just said. When I asked very challenging questions he replied by saying these are questions I must not ask. When I ask, 'why can I not ask?' his reply is 'because you mustn't ask'. Thereafter I said, sorry, but that reply is not good enough for me.

As always, he repeats his claims but fails to produce evidence to support them.

My Muslim friend (a Shiia) told me he thought I would be the perfect Muslim as I am very contemplative and am the type of person who seeks justice for all. While I found his statement flattering, I had to tell him, no, I could not be a Muslim as I am the type to demand concreteness in ideas and actions. Therefore, I could never be a Muslim but will respect people's right to believe as they wish.

I advise you and all Westerners and Easterners; and I should be sincere in my words, and should be clear without any hpocrisy: The Christianity today is not like the teachings of Jesus, and are in contradiction with the First Commandment of God; because they erected the statues in their churches, and claimed the Trinity and said Jesus is the son of God and claimed Jesus is God Himself.And anyone that does not believe in the God as One without associate,and in the Quran and Prophet Mohammed; then such people will lose in the next afterlife.And no need that you reply and I reply: that's it.Therefore, when Najran Christians came to dispute with Prophet Mohammed and their dispute continued for several days; at last they were challenged to pray God to prove which party is correct; i.e. to make God Himself the Judge between the two parties: the monotheism and the trinity.Refer to my post here in this forum:http://forums.canadiancontent.net/spirituality-philosophy/75195-challenge-prayers.htmlThe Challenge in prayerart 2- Prophet Mohammed and the Christians of Najran
http://forums.canadiancontent.net/spirituality-philosophy/75195-challenge-prayers.html

 

[eanassir]

The reason for sending the apostleWhen people fall in the idolatry and associating others with God; this is because they are wrong-doers and deserve God misguidance and God's punishment.So here He sends them an apostle to remind them that God is One, and He alone deserves the glorification and and the thanksgiving and the gratitude for His blessings and bounties.The apostle will also enjoin on them the justice and to be kind towards the kindred, the orphans, the widows, the poor and the needy.Then if they respond and convert then they will prosper, and if not then they will be punished and destroyed.This is in the Quran 20: 134وَلَوْ أَنَّا أَهْلَكْنَاهُم بِعَذَابٍ مِّن قَبْلِهِ لَقَالُوا رَبَّنَا لَوْلَا أَرْسَلْتَ إِلَيْنَا رَسُولًا فَنَتَّبِعَ آيَاتِكَ مِن قَبْلِ أَن نَّذِلَّ وَنَخْزَىThe explanation: (Had We destroyed them with a punishment before this, they would have said: "Our Lord, if only You had sent to us a messenger, we should certainly have followed Your revelations before we were humbled and put to shame."Say [O Mohammed, to them:] "Every [party] of us is waiting; so wait; for surely you shall know who are the fellows of the right way and who are guided [to it]?")باللغة العربية

 

[Downhome_Woman]

What shall I say to you, when all your words you say without any proof or evidence?

your proof or evidence is sadly lacking. you claim that Ismael is the father of the Arab Nation (kind of leaves the non-Arab Muslims as poor cousins), but there are NO legends or mysths or religious stories that PRE-DATE your prophet, to indicate that this is at least a possibility. that particular story ONLY starts with Mohammed - who co-opted it most likely from Christians and Jews that he met when he was a traveling salesman.
You ramble on about the mercifulness of your Allah - but then you talk about how all those who refuse to believe will suffer. wow. I'm underwhelmed. since I've never really read about Allah actually doing any personal smiting - he instead apparently sends his minions (A.K.A. the Hordes of Doom) to do his work - oh - and he allows an exception for the 'people of the book' - they don't have to convert, instead they just have to pay a heavy tax, wear special clothes, defer to Muslims on the street, and basically keep themselves (and their religious buildings) at a lower level than their Muslim overlords. Ah! - the joys of Djimitude! Oh well, guess there has to be a price paid for not being able to believe something your masters insist on. I'm assuming that he'll use a human mouthpiece to let his thoughts be known to those who are going to smite the unbelievers? Pretty shabby. At least the God I was brought up on did his own dirty work with floods and such. Yours? Gets someone else to do his dirty work. And you wonder why I don't have an inclination to convert to the Muslim religion? (Well, there is that whole 'Women have their place and it sure isn't beside the men' thing) you talk about how christianity has morphed from the original into something corrupt. Look at your faith. your prophet took council with his wives - even when they were 'impure'. His first wife was a vibrant member of the business community in her own right - he never forced her to step back into purdah. and now? 'Islamic' men take 4 wives and keep divorcing the 4th - for another. (Osama Bin Laden's mother apparently was a throw away 4th).
Islam is supposed to 'respect' the people of the book, but they took over churches and synagogues and never gave them back. that's not respect, to steal someone else's place of worship - especially if you trumpet large and wide how much you 'respect' them.
Refusing women education, passive support of female genital mutilation (sorry - unless i hear scholars from the majot Islamic universities strongly come out against this, the argument that 'it's a cultural thing and not an Islamic thing' is bogus. If Islam is all that, then Islamic countries should have given up these barbaric practices long ago - HUNDREDS of years ago - when the Islam ic hordes conquered. After all, how many times have I heard how Mohammed stopped the pagan practice of exposing unwanted girl babies to their death? What - death is bad, but horrendous mutilation is a good thing?
OK Einasser, answer my attacks. show me - IN YOUR OWN WORDS WITH REAL WORLD EXAMPLES - where I'm wrong. Betcha can't.

 

[gopher]

I don't know that any of this is worth an argument. But it certainly makes no sense to me that God would tell the world in two allegedly Holy Books that Israel through the House of David would be the Source of salvation without giving a hint that he would change course and go on to another of Abraham's seed in order to fulfill this pledge. This especially so when those purported Holy Books claim to be plenary inspiration. As we Yanks say, that is changing the horse in mid-stream and it has no logic and makes not the slightest sense.

But if that is what eanasser wishes to believe, fine. But his beliefs are not binding on me or anyone else without some actual proof.