Essential features of the apostle of God

eanassir

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So Allah or an angel gave all this stuff to Mohammed 1400 years ago and he did not understand what he was given but he started a religion, destroyed all the existing religions and religious symbols that he could get his hands on in his lifetime and slaughtered anybody who would not join this religion that he didn't understand and Muslims have been waging holy war ever since on the infidel even though none of them know what the Quran means.... Holy Crap! That has got to be the most absurd nonsense I have ever heard.

Then some guy comes along and says he has been divinely inspired to translate the Quran into a language he doesn't even know and you come on here peddling this nonsense as if it were the word of god. You really aren't playing with a full deck.


The ayat of the Qruan are two categories:

The plain ayat: the meaning is obvious; Muslims worked according to these ayat.

The ambiguous ayat: having ambiguous meaning; Muslims left their meaning to God Who promised to inspire someone in the future to explain to them the meaning of such ambiguous ayat.

About such ayat, the hypocrites mocked and the disbelievers were tempted and misguided.

And here is the miracle which indicates the truthfulness of God's apostle; because if Mohammed had invented the Quran, then he would have told people that he knew every detail in his book. While he said about such ayat: "I don't know; I heard it as such from the angel Gabriel."

Refer to the ayat 38: 86-88 in my post #155
"There are many other ayat with the same implication, like this aya 75: 19

ثُمَّ إِنَّ عَلَيْنَا بَيَانَهُ

The explanation:
(Then [after a long time] We have to explain it [to people])

It means: the explanation of what revelations of the Quran were mysterious to them, and which they do not understand their meaning.

And the aya 6: 105

وَكَذَلِكَ نُصَرِّفُ الآيَاتِ وَلِيَقُولُواْ دَرَسْتَ وَلِنُبَيِّنَهُ لِقَوْمٍ يَعْلَمُونَ

The explanation:
(Thus do We explain the ayat by various [ways]: That they may say [to you, Mohammed,] “You have studied [the past heavenly scriptures, and invented the Quran accordingly]”, and that We may explain the [Quran in the future] to people who know [modern sciences.])

Then the late interpreter said:

"God has fulfilled what He had promised; for He never breaks His promise. So He inspired into me the interpretation of the Quran, and I explained the meaning of the ayat of the Quran that are ambiguous;

I explained them fully and clearly, so that by now there shouldn’t be any aya that one cannot understand its meaning, and …it should be clear to them that … the Quran … all of it is unchangeable. I called that book “The True Interpretation of the Revelation

<http://www.quran-ayat.com/conflict/english3.htm#___A_The_Abrogation_>
 
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Cliffy

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And if you had been born in a Christian family in the US you would believe the same thing about the bible. The only difference that I can see is that even today, at your age, you would still believe in Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny.
 

AnnaG

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So Allah or an angel gave all this stuff to Mohammed 1400 years ago and he did not understand what he was given but he started a religion, destroyed all the existing religions and religious symbols that he could get his hands on in his lifetime and slaughtered anybody who would not join this religion that he didn't understand and Muslims have been waging holy war ever since on the infidel even though none of them know what the Quran means...

Then some guy comes along and says he has been divinely inspired to translate the Quran into a language he doesn't even know and you come on here peddling this nonsense as if it were the word of god.
That's it in a nutshell.
 

Cliffy

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My guess would be Buddhist (maybe Taoist) as they don't seem to stick their noses into other's business. :D
Not sure either. They must be pacifists, though, as they seem to duck behind rocks every time someone goes looking for them.
 

gopher

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''So they betrayed their Lord, and chose the idolatry, and they were no more the Chosen People of God, and God divorced Israel, and they are not any longer His chosen people.
http://www.quran-ayat.com/conflict/english2.htm


... This was to demonstrate that the Hebrew Bible is undependable, and people should now refer to the Glorious Quran which is the final revealed book from God Almighty. ''



It is true that the Old Testament indicates the nations of the world will be blessed through Isaac Gen 28:4; 35:12. But if we accept the OT and the New Testament's teaching that Jesus/Yahshua is Messiah, then there must be some basis for saying that a third revelatory book was needed in order to find the new Source for the world's blessing. The NT tells that all who recognize Jesus/Yahshua as Messiah are now Abraham's seed and heirs according to the Promise. See Galatians 3. Therefore, no further revelatory book is needed.

Why accept NT teaching that he is Messiah and then reject the rest of the book as ''unrealiable''? The logic of your argument escapes me.

However, again if you feel that the Koran fits this role for you, so be it.
 

eanassir

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Jul 26, 2007
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''So they betrayed their Lord, and chose the idolatry, and they were no more the Chosen People of God, and God divorced Israel, and they are not any longer His chosen people.
http://www.quran-ayat.com/conflict/english2.htm


... This was to demonstrate that the Hebrew Bible is undependable, and people should now refer to the Glorious Quran which is the final revealed book from God Almighty. ''


It is true that the Old Testament indicates the nations of the world will be blessed through Isaac Gen 28:4; 35:12.


Gopher, it seems that you did not open the link that I gave you in my previous post:
http://www.quran-ayat.com/conflict/english2.htm
So I shall tell you what is in this link:


Israel Is Divorced

According to the words of the Hebrew Bible itself

:) God Divorced Israel and Chose the Islamic Nation Instead of Her)

The Israelites are no longer the Chosen People of God

It is mentioned in the Book of Jeremiah, chapter 3, the following:

“6-And the Lord said to me in the days of king Josiah: Have you seen what rebellious Israel has done? She has gone of herself upon every high mountain and under every green tree and has played the harlot* there.
7-And when she had done all these things, I said: Return to me. And she did not return. And her treacherous sister Juda saw.
8-That because the rebellious Israel had played the harlot, I had put her away and given her a bill of divorce: yet her treacherous sister Juda was not afraid, but went and played the harlot also herself.
9-And by the facility of her fornication she defiled the land and played the harlot with stone and with stocks.”

[In this respect, Jesus Christ said, as in the Gospel according to Matthews 21: 43
Therefore I say to you that the kingdom of God shall be taken from you [Jews] and shall be given to a nation** yielding the fruits thereof.”]
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

*i.e. she worshipped stones and idols [like the Baalim, Astaroth, the gold calf and the star Sirius] instead of God, and by doing so, she betrayed her Lord: associating other gods with Him, like the wife betraying her husband and associating with him some other men.

**It shall be given to a nation that shall work according to God’s commandments, i.e. the Islamic nation.

 
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eanassir

Time Out
Jul 26, 2007
3,099
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38
''So they betrayed their Lord, and chose the idolatry, and they were no more the Chosen People of God, and God divorced Israel, and they are not any longer His chosen people.
http://www.quran-ayat.com/conflict/english2.htm


... This was to demonstrate that the Hebrew Bible is undependable, and people should now refer to the Glorious Quran which is the final revealed book from God Almighty. ''



It is true that the Old Testament indicates the nations of the world will be blessed through Isaac Gen 28:4; 35:12. But if we accept the OT and the New Testament's teaching that Jesus/Yahshua is Messiah, then there must be some basis for saying that a third revelatory book was needed in order to find the new Source for the world's blessing. The NT tells that all who recognize Jesus/Yahshua as Messiah are now Abraham's seed and heirs according to the Promise. See Galatians 3. Therefore, no further revelatory book is needed.

Why accept NT teaching that he is Messiah and then reject the rest of the book as ''unrealiable''? The logic of your argument escapes me.

However, again if you feel that the Koran fits this role for you, so be it.


Why God sent all the prophets and apostles


This is to instruct people that He is One God, and all other gods should be discarded. This is the First Commandment. This is the religion of God: from eternity and to the everlasting.
Anyone that contradicts this "No god but God alone" will not see Paradise, no intercession will avail him, and his resort will be in Hell.
Therefore, all the apostles came for this purpose and to warn man lest he should go to Hell because of his idolatry and associating others with God.
And how will man have such guidance: by being kind to others particularly the weak and the needy, and by avoiding the transgression and the wrong-doing.
So God sends an apostle and people are then rightly guided (when they obey their apostle to the religion of God alone) and they will be blessed and hope to be admitted to Paradise in the next afterlife.

SECOND:
But passing of generations and the inventions of some religious leaders and the suggestion of devils and the wrong doing of people distortion of the message of that apostle, and people will fall in the idolatry and associating their apostle and his family with God Almighty.
So "when there is no available correct way of monotheism and exclusive devotion to God, and the revelations included in the heavenly books are distorted, then God will send a new apostle".
God sent a large number of apostles to all His servants: His created beings, for the same purpose; it was not only Jesus that was sent, not only Moses and not only Mohammed.

THIRD:
So now when the Torah was distorted seriously by the hand of the priest Ezra, the religion was seriously distorted and altered to give a distorted picture; then Jesus was sent and his teachings are known very well to take the essence of the Commandments not the external words only, and to hold fast with the most important Commandment: the First Commandment: that God is One and to love Him more than anything and anyone else.

FOURTH:
Then the message of Jesus was distorted by Jewish devils like Saul: Paul who was the most enemy and persecutor of the early Christians, and he started now to spread the enthusiasm about Jesus and to invent some new inventions like enhancing the non-marriage state, and some early Christians were alert to this, but his teachings prevailed. Then there was a great distortion in the Gospel which now become more than one Gospel.
And Christianity through all these factors and because of the enthusiasm became a completely distorted one similar or may be more than the idolatry itself, and in fact they erected the statues in their churches contrary to the first commandment.
So now any new individual man or woman who wants to know the religion of God, instead he will find nothing other than falsehood and enthusiasm away from the correct God's religion.

FIFTH:
Therefore, God sent Mohammed a mercy for all the World and revealed to him the Quran: a light of guidance to all humanity.
Nowadays, all the religions before the Islam are distorted into something like idolatry and associating others with God Almighty.
While Muslims themselves although they have the Quran, but they do not understand much of the meaning of the Quran, and they fall in the wrong ways of Jews and Christians before them, and started to be enthusiastic about their imams and companions of the prophet; so the importance of the Mahdi now is very essential, who will be supported by Jesus Christ in his second coming to guide all these masses of Muslims and Christians who count about 3 billions or more.
The Mahdi and the Christ will not come to encourage the enthusiasm of Jews, Christians and Muslims, but to glorify God the Lord of all nations and all the worlds; God is not Jesus, neither is Jesus His son, but God is the Creator the Eternal; Jesus was the honored apostle of God and that's it, no more;
and all people now have to study the Glorious Quran and its interpretation that God Himself will inspire to the Mahdi; because all the past Torah and Gospel have been distorted and altered.:thumbup:

quran-ayat.com/conflict/index.htm#preface
http://www.quran-ayat.com/conflict/index.htm#preface
quran-ayat.com
http://www.quran-ayat.com/
 
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AnnaG

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lol That's quite the list in the cartoon that the apostle taught people:

 
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Downhome_Woman

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This is one of the inventions of Ezra in his Torah which he wrote following their retrun from the cpativity of Babylon.

The priest Ezra wrote the Torah and ommitted many things and altered many others.

The Disagreement of the
Unlike your Quran - which is an appropriation of Christian and Jewish beliefs - there's nothing original in your book einasser - just a reworking of other people's beliefs. Mohammed was a travelling salesman who took all the legends and stories and beliefs that he heard from the two other faiths and reworked them into something of his own.
Ismael is mentioned in the Torah, and you bey God said that he would be the father of nations, but Mecca wasn't mentioned - and prove to me that Mohammed was descended from him. Like I said - any connection with Abraham started with Mohammed - there are no legends, myths or anything else in the Arab mythology that indicates anything of Abraham. It's one thing to incorporate beliefs that's how religions grow and change - it's another thing to steal them like a magpie.
Islamic tolerance? another myth. give back the Hagia Sophia in Istambul to the Christians, and the Temple Mount in Jerusalem to the Jews and then I might think that you actually respect the other 'people of the book'.
 

gopher

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''God divorced Israel''


I believe we discussed that a while ago in another thread. Roman 11 clearly shows that divorcement did NOT take place:


King James Version: Romans Chapter 11

1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,

3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.

4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.

9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:

10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.

11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.

20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:

31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?

35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?

36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.
 

gopher

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Jeremiah 3 is a very complicated part of the Old Testament but it well worth reading in depth. Here, the threat of divorce was with the Northern Tribes, not the Southern where Judah is the biggest tribal grouping. God proclaims that the tribes are ''adulterers'' who worship idols and gives a 'divorce' (verse 8). But he exhorts Israel to return (verse 12) so that the divorcement was not concluded. He proclaims that he is ''married unto you'' (verse 14) and promises restoration of inheritance (verse 18) if they comply with his instructions.

''Truly in the Lord our God is the salvation of Israel'' (verse 23). Therefore, it proves that divorcement did not become finalized.
 

Downhome_Woman

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Why God sent all the prophets and apostles


This is to instruct people that He is One God, and all other gods should be discarded. This is the First Commandment. This is the religion of God: from eternity and to the everlasting.
Anyone that contradicts this "No god but God alone" will not see Paradise, no intercession will avail him, and his resort will be in Hell.
Therefore, all the apostles came for this purpose and to warn man lest he should go to Hell because of his idolatry and associating others with God.
And how will man have such guidance: by being kind to others particularly the weak and the needy, and by avoiding the transgression and the wrong-doing.
So God sends an apostle and people are then rightly guided (when they obey their apostle to the religion of God alone) and they will be blessed and hope to be admitted to Paradise in the next afterlife.

SECOND:
But passing of generations and the inventions of some religious leaders and the suggestion of devils and the wrong doing of people distortion of the message of that apostle, and people will fall in the idolatry and associating their apostle and his family with God Almighty.
So "when there is no available correct way of monotheism and exclusive devotion to God, and the revelations included in the heavenly books are distorted, then God will send a new apostle".
God sent a large number of apostles to all His servants: His created beings, for the same purpose; it was not only Jesus that was sent, not only Moses and not only Mohammed.

THIRD:
So now when the Torah was distorted seriously by the hand of the priest Ezra, the religion was seriously distorted and altered to give a distorted picture; then Jesus was sent and his teachings are known very well to take the essence of the Commandments not the external words only, and to hold fast with the most important Commandment: the First Commandment: that God is One and to love Him more than anything and anyone else.

FOURTH:
Then the message of Jesus was distorted by Jewish devils like Saul: Paul who was the most enemy and persecutor of the early Christians, and he started now to spread the enthusiasm about Jesus and to invent some new inventions like enhancing the non-marriage state, and some early Christians were alert to this, but his teachings prevailed. Then there was a great distortion in the Gospel which now become more than one Gospel.
And Christianity through all these factors and because of the enthusiasm became a completely distorted one similar or may be more than the idolatry itself, and in fact they erected the statues in their churches contrary to the first commandment.
So now any new individual man or woman who wants to know the religion of God, instead he will find nothing other than falsehood and enthusiasm away from the correct God's religion.

FIFTH:
Therefore, God sent Mohammed a mercy for all the World and revealed to him the Quran: a light of guidance to all humanity.
Nowadays, all the religions before the Islam are distorted into something like idolatry and associating others with God Almighty.
While Muslims themselves although they have the Quran, but they do not understand much of the meaning of the Quran, and they fall in the wrong ways of Jews and Christians before them, and started to be enthusiastic about their imams and companions of the prophet; so the importance of the Mahdi now is very essential, who will be supported by Jesus Christ in his second coming to guide all these masses of Muslims and Christians who count about 3 billions or more.
The Mahdi and the Christ will not come to encourage the enthusiasm of Jews, Christians and Muslims, but to glorify God the Lord of all nations and all the worlds; God is not Jesus, neither is Jesus His son, but God is the Creator the Eternal; Jesus was the honored apostle of God and that's it, no more;
and all people now have to study the Glorious Quran and its interpretation that God Himself will inspire to the Mahdi; because all the past Torah and Gospel have been distorted and altered.:thumbup:

quran-ayat.com/conflict/index.htm#preface
The Disagreement of the
quran-ayat.com
http://www.quran-ayat.com/

OMG - you're a '12th Imamist'!!!! But just out of curiosity, why would a bunch of people who worship 'the Son of God' follow someone who's only a prophet? In my books , relationship to a deity trumps someone who just claims prophet-hood. Let's face it, it's only Mohammed's word, that makes him the 'prophet' (ok - well there's that gosh darned aggressive army that 'convinced' people that it would be in their best interests to convert - mind you, the proceeds from the taxes on djimis was pretty good income, so maybe conversion wasn't the only goal of the 'army of allah')
Please advise.
 

gopher

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'' Matthews 21: 43
Therefore I say to you that the kingdom of God shall be taken from you [Jews] and shall be given to a nation** yielding the fruits thereof.”] ''



This is from eanassir's link. It shows Jesus parables in which the chief priests and Pharisees were being warned that they risked forfeiture of the inheritance for their evil teachings. It goes on to say that the kingdom '' shall be given to a nation bringing forth the fruits'' - that is, to people who are not corrupted by their false teachings. If anything this part of the link shows that the divorce was not concluded in Old Testament times and completely refutes eanassir's earlier point. The record shows thereafter that many Jews did convert to his teachings and this insured their inheritance.


 

gopher

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I forgot to add above that ''nation'' in Matt 21:43 should not be confused with our modern day usage. Yes, it can mean a nation or tribal grouping such as Judah. But Jesus' message could well have been intended for ALL tribes who were subjected to false teaching. The following definition from Strong's Concordance shows how inclusive the term can be:


''nation'' = G1484 - ethnos


1) a multitude (whether of men or of beasts) associated or living together
a) a company, troop, swarm
2) a multitude of individuals of the same nature or genus
a) the human family
3) a tribe, nation, people group
4) in the OT, foreign nations not worshipping the true God, pagans, Gentiles
5) Paul uses the term for Gentile Christians


At bottom, what this means is that Jesus and his teachings are the ultimate source for everyone's salvation. Again, the point for me is, if Jesus is Messiah as acknowledged in the Koran then there is no rationale for veering from his instruction in any way and no need for a third Revelatory book.