Dump these turkeys: tougher drug stance

[Niflmir]

No justification for the criminalization of marijuana was ever given. One can consider the war on drugs simply a continuation of the opium wars: make the drugs illegal in a rich nation, then it must be grown in a poor nation which can lead to economic sanctions put in place. Bit of a stretch from the opium wars though.

Take that most profound of all freedoms: expression. Violence can be an expression, but it is easy to justify limiting that form of expression. Perjury is a form of expression as well, it is the untruthful expression of a concept with the wrong legal ramifications. It is directly and causally related to miscarriage of justice and so is easy to justify limiting. The same is true of discrimination, slander, verbal abuse and hate propaganda.

There is no direct causal relation between drug use and social degradation. The use in and of itself is not morally corrupt; caffeine is a common recreational drug. The argument for the prohibition of drugs is a stretch at best. Without actual statistical evidence, it is implied that these specific forms of recreational drugs lead to societal breakdown because of physical or psychological addiction which they imply leads to criminal behavior, generally theft and robbery to provide money for the next hit. The fact that this is untrue for alcohol, tobacco, caffeine, or morphine, for example, seems to have slipped their attention. Although such arguments sound plausible they lack the weight of evidence and are, as such, not justifications.

It was simply assumed that society had an interest to interfere in personal lives to prevent specific forms of drug use, reasons were never provided.

 

[Pangloss]

Good grief. You use your finger to pull the trigger to cause murder, or you use your hand to stab someone. Such use of the body is prohibited by law. And you know what you use when you rape a woman/that's part of your body too. It seems you are incapable of comprehending such things. You only see yourself as innocent. A jury would not.

Uncle

Oh, good grief yourself, Uncle. Re-read my posts and you will (if you use that wrinkled forebrain of yours) see that I argue strongly for personal responsibility, and for a clear distinction between activities that effect me, and those that effect others.

If I shoot somebody, I am interfering with that other person, and should be held accountable.

If I shoot drugs into my veins in my own home, I am having an effect only on me. If I leave the house in a stupor and fall off a cliff, I have only myself to blame.

If I drive drunk, I am putting others at risk, and should be penalized.

Is the bulb in your brain bright enough to see the difference?

Pangloss

 

[Pangloss]

Niflmir:

I couldn't have said it better myself.

Pangloss

 

[Pangloss]

For some people, therapy just doesn't work.

And for some people, it does.

And for others, peanut butter is an allergen. Should we ban it because it can kill? How about spray paint? There are huffers, you know.

And horseback riding and skiing are totally dangerous when done foolishly - should we kill all the horses and level the mountains?

Prohibitionists have such silly arguments.

Pangloss

 

[Dreadful Nonsense]

Maybe a life of giggly ha ha spread through out all of society is not a good thing....people that use drugs regularly are people with problems....deep rooted ones....those are the only ones defending drug use...staraight people see drug use as some sort of human flaw in character....weed i know has it's place in medicine...i see people that talk of recreational drug use as some sort of social misfit..i'm sorry..if you have to injest chemicals for fun yer one of those.....

i'm tired of drug users pushing their lifestyle as some sort of good thing on any level....
on the other hand part of me says it's so over with trying to educate people on pot and it's use as recreational drug is a losing battle...society needs crutches...let em have it..tax it...end the crime around it....people that don't need this crap won't use it and the ones that do ...enjoy yourselves...if you want a life of giggly ha ha ...well who am i to dictate .....


pot heads don't have the stigma as die hard alcoholics cause it's ilegal and still underground.....if it goes the way of legalization society might just adjust to pot heads as a sort of alcoholic problem and treat them as sick people finnally....

right now it's all underground cult status ...with straight people just ignoring as a society ill other than lumping topgether with all drug users....which they are ..it's just a milder havoc wrecking drug...but once blitzoid yer blitzoid....pot people that tell you other wise are lieing to themselves...

 

[Pangloss]

Unf:

I just re-read your posts. I was over the top - you're not a complete prohibitionist. Still, any prohibition is more harmful than the drug itself.

Pangloss

 

[Pangloss]

Doc:

I don't do drugs of any kind. I still want all the drug laws - the entire list of prohibited drugs - scrapped.

My opinion is based on jurisprudence, pharmacology, social theory, and reading a heck of a lot of solid, thoughtful academic works on the topic from a number of different disciplines.

The anti-drug laws are pushing a lifestyle (abstinence and criminalization) far harder than any pothead has advocated toking up. The police blow up freighters (Australia did that just two weeks ago), spray poison on crops, burn and bomb production facilities, create an entire criminal class out of dope smokers, erase civil liberties and kill people in order to keep us from getting high.

Does that seem like a proportional response?

People dead or in jail is far worse than people stoned.

Pangloss

 

[Niflmir]

Maybe a life of giggly ha ha spread through out all of society is not a good thing....people that use drugs regularly are people with problems....deep rooted ones....those are the only ones defending drug use...staraight people see drug use as some sort of human flaw in character....weed i know has it's place in medicine...i see people that talk of recreational drug use as some sort of social misfit..i'm sorry..if you have to injest chemicals for fun yer one of those.....

i'm tired of drug users pushing their lifestyle as some sort of good thing on any level....
on the other hand part of me says it's so over with trying to educate people on pot and it's use as recreational drug is a losing battle...society needs crutches...let em have it..tax it...end the crime around it....people that don't need this crap won't use it and the ones that do ...enjoy yourselves...if you want a life of giggly ha ha ...well who am i to dictate .....


pot heads don't have the stigma as die hard alcoholics cause it's ilegal and still underground.....if it goes the way of legalization society might just adjust to pot heads as a sort of alcoholic problem and treat them as sick people finnally....

right now it's all underground cult status ...with straight people just ignoring as a society ill other than lumping topgether with all drug users....which they are ..it's just a milder havoc wrecking drug...but once blitzoid yer blitzoid....pot people that tell you other wise are lieing to themselves...

Actually, I could be the poster child for how drugs can screw up your life. But I learned my lesson and got out before I was put in a straight jacket. Drugs aren't for everybody, but they are certainly not for nobody. A lot of my problems stemmed from paranoia which would not have existed had drugs been more acceptable, and also from a lack of honesty with my family, who would have helped me to see that drugs weren't for me.

Long story short: I cannot do drugs. They aren't fun for me, they make me psychotic and depressed. However, I am not dangerous in that state and neither are other drug users.

The same sort of argument against drugs can be posed for violent or obscene video games, television, books, and even conversations. That they are indicative of deep rooted problems, as I said, it seems plausible but lacks statistical correlation. True, there are alcoholics and drug addicts with major problems, but drug use is not automatically drug abuse. There are many drug users who are more productive, more charitable, more reasoned, more well read, or any other social metric you have, than some non drug users.

 

[DurkaDurka]

I have smoked pot probably thousands of times and during that time I have in no way endangered anyone or committed other crimes in the process. I like the pot laws how they are now, illegal but no enforced. There is no reason for the cons to crackdown on this other then them being punitive bullies and trying to curry favour with the "war on drugs" folks down south.

There are a lot more pressing issues in this country that need to be addressed before flooding the courts with recreational tokers.

 

[Pangloss]

D2:

The problem with an "unenforced" law staying on the books is that it can be selectively enforced against people the state doesn't like.

Then it becomes a tool for racism and class politics.

Pangloss

 

[Tonington]

Oh Doc, come now. Generalizations never help to clear the air on a conflated issue like pot use.

I don't use Pot to have fun, in actual fact I use it very rarely now. Most times I use it for relaxation. When I use caffeine, I use it for the opposite effect. When I eat chocolate, it is because I want something sweet.

It's not a crutch. I'm not dependent on it. If someone chooses to go to the pub for a beer or two after work, that's not frowned upon in most circles. It is a perfectly acceptable social setting. If I wish to fill my bowl with some friends after a long day of classes and labs, to me that is no different than if I went to the pub for a few beers.

I use it as I use alcohol. There is a time and a place for it. At work or during school is not one of those times. In my spare time, it is my choice as to how I use that time.

There are so many inequities in how pot is viewed and treated. What do you think of when you imagine a pot user? Perhaps some 'stoner' listening to groovy music, eating cheetos, and saying things like, "Whoa man....that poster is so cool" or something to that effect? I frequently will compare pot to alcohol, even though the drugs are classed differently. The comparison serves as a useful dichotomy for how we accept some forms of recreational drug use, and not others.

Look to Holland, and the low levels of drug usage there.The separation of soft and hard drugs has resulted in a society with lower levels of prevalence as well as lower levels of drug related deaths. That separation also results in a separation of "acceptable risk" users from "unacceptable risk" users.

 

[Unforgiven]

Some people just can't figure how anyone can enjoy pot without abusing it they way they have when they were a child. Poor parenting reflects in they're attitudes. Even when it doesn't affect them in anyway, they want to punish those who act in a responsible manner along with those who are out of control, probably for reasons that have nothing to do with the drug they take.

I wonder if it is some projection of the limited responsibilites they have in their life, dependant so much on others, that makes them so aggressive towards those who have no interest in fighting?

Observe how often the poor and disabled are prayed upon. They don't fight back.

 

[Unforgiven]

I disagree with that. Some stuff just has no place in anybody's bloodstream.
Scopolamine for example has no use from what I've seen other than abuse and death. Some people shouldn't take drugs either. They don't know what they are doing, and most often aren't responsible to begin with.

Unf:

I just re-read your posts. I was over the top - you're not a complete prohibitionist. Still, any prohibition is more harmful than the drug itself.

Pangloss

 

[lone wolf]

First off, if they took weed out of the Narcotics Control Act and put it back under the Food and Drug Act from where it should never have been moved, they wouldn't be creating criminals from dope smokers. Control it with the same strings as for booze. When government caters to the money crowd, they lose sight of reality - the PEOPLE....

Wolf

 

[Tonington]

They're holding a press conference right now.

 

[Unforgiven]

I is a victim!
I needs a education!

 

[Walter]

Salt of the earth kinda guys who grow their own, no organized crime.

Probably into waste management, too. Or maybe olive oil importing.

 

[lone wolf]

Probably into waste management, too. Or maybe olive oil importing.

...or good upstanding members of the Ontario PC's

Wolf

 

[Tonington]

Nope, not Ontario PC's, I do know some Alberta PC's though.

Seriously Walter, get off that high horse before you fall and hit your head.

 

[Unforgiven]

You watch too much tv.

Probably into waste management, too. Or maybe olive oil importing.