Does God exist?

Vanni Fucci

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Dec 26, 2004
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God is the Reality behind all appearances.

No, god is a fantasy dreamed up in the minds of ancient mankind to assuage their fears and uncertainty, and to give ready explanation for that which was unknown....and to provide a rally point in whose name the deaths of infidels could be justified...

That is to say the external signs we see in the universe should necessarily lead a wise person to the Ultimate Reality behind it all. And that is how we arrive at the realization that Allah Almighty is the Moving Power behind all life and all existence

That you choose to interpret these so call "signs" in that way is only a testament to your own ignorance and lack of understanding.

allah/yahweh/brahma/etc dunnit...the end

no need to seek any real answers because they were provided thousands of years ago by opiated stone age mystics...

...or opiated iron-age mystics in the case of mohammed [pbuh:p]

It's interesting to note also that the rise of Islam was on the coat-tails of technological advances in metallurgy and the resultant transition from iron to steel as the metal of choice for weaponry in that particular region of the world...

Peace be upon who?
 
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ahmadabdalrhman

Electoral Member
Sep 14, 2008
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No, god is a fantasy dreamed up in the minds of ancient mankind to assuage their fears and uncertainty, and to give ready explanation for that which was unknown....and to provide a rally point in whose name the deaths of infidels could be justified...

what have the guide ?

If you know ?

or you expect ?

the truth , no god just allah

( we are the muslim have guide )

( THE QURAN )

THE QURAN , not THE CHANGEABILITY BEfore 1400 of years and him not CHANGEABILITY , him challenge BEfore 1400 years ,
and that truth to know just 1 QURAN




That you choose to interpret these so call "signs" in that way is only a testament

to your own ignorance and lack of understanding.

YOU have the guide IN THE "signs" NO TRUTH ?

yahweh/brahma/etc dunnit...the end

allah truth the god..we have guide

( THE QURAN )

no need to seek any real answers because they were provided thousands of years ago by opiated stone age mystics...

...or opiated iron-age mystics in the case of mohammed [pbuh:p]

case of mohammed [pbuh:p]

THAT easy

LOOK TO THE SOURCE THEN YOU KNOW THE TRUTH ,

THE WHAT GOD SAID IN QURAN AND WHAT mohammed [pbuh]SAID IN Sahih Bukhari AND Sahih MUSLIM ,

Sahih = RIGHT ( not THE CHANGEABILITY )

It's interesting to note also that the rise of Islam was on the coat-tails of technological advances in metallurgy and the resultant transition from iron to steel as the metal of choice for weaponry in that particular region of the world...

THE CULTURE ISLAMIC , WAS advances IN EVREY SCIENCES ..:angry3:

LOOK TO THE CULTURE

ISLAMIC IN SPAIN

, FOR EXAMPLE

Peace be upon who?

IF THE PEOPLE feared OF THE GOD .

And Allah knows best.
 

Spocq

Electoral Member
Sep 8, 2008
122
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what have the guide ?

If you know ?

or you expect ?

the truth , no god just allah

( we are the muslim have guide )

( THE QURAN )

THE QURAN , not THE CHANGEABILITY BEfore 1400 of years and him not CHANGEABILITY , him challenge BEfore 1400 years ,
and that truth to know just 1 QURAN






YOU have the guide IN THE "signs" NO TRUTH ?



allah truth the god..we have guide

( THE QURAN )





THAT easy

LOOK TO THE SOURCE THEN YOU KNOW THE TRUTH ,

THE WHAT GOD SAID IN QURAN AND WHAT mohammed [pbuh]SAID IN Sahih Bukhari AND Sahih MUSLIM ,

Sahih = RIGHT ( not THE CHANGEABILITY )



THE CULTURE ISLAMIC , WAS advances IN EVREY SCIENCES ..:angry3:

LOOK TO THE CULTURE

ISLAMIC IN SPAIN

, FOR EXAMPLE



IF THE PEOPLE feared OF THE GOD .

And Allah knows best.
Any God or Allah who kills breaking his own rules doesn't know best. Sounds like a politician, say one thing and do another. :(

You call that good? I call that evil!
 

talloola

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 14, 2006
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As a person who grew up totally involved in religion, went to catholic school etc., then gradually
began to see the 'other' side of life, I now can see both sides of the coin.
I can weight both sides 'in my mind', I understand the religious persons involvement
with god and their church.

From what I just read above, the person above doesn't have a clue about the other side of the
coin, narrow minded, tunnel vision, and totally controlled by his god, with no thought that there could be a different way, and understand that, accept it, and realize that everyone doesn't believe what he believes, and that is OK.
 

Dexter Sinister

Unspecified Specialist
Oct 1, 2004
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That is to say the external signs we see in the universe should necessarily lead a wise person to the Ultimate Reality behind it all. And that is how we arrive at the realization that Allah Almighty is the Moving Power behind all life and all existence.
Ah, a new re-statement of the old argument from design. You need to take a closer look at the external signs, that's not really where they lead anybody who understands the evidence. Where they lead is to the conclusion that Allah is unnecessary as any part of the explanation for the organized complexity we see around us. The argument doesn't work anyway, you can't explain organized complexity simply by postulating it, which is all the argument from design does.
 

In Between Man

The Biblical Position
Sep 11, 2008
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As a person who grew up totally involved in religion, went to catholic school etc., then gradually
began to see the 'other' side of life, I now can see both sides of the coin.
I can weight both sides 'in my mind', I understand the religious persons involvement
with god and their church.

From what I just read above, the person above doesn't have a clue about the other side of the
coin, narrow minded, tunnel vision, and totally controlled by his god, with no thought that there could be a different way, and understand that, accept it, and realize that everyone doesn't believe what he believes, and that is OK.

Just like how you say " people that believe in God are very narrow minded people, they believe their view is true and anything opposed is false" I can easily say as well "atheists are very narrow minded people! They believe their view is true and anything opposed to it is false."

It works both ways.:smile: Also, many people are victims of the Catholic church, some more ways than one. The whole religion is ceremonies, traditions, and protocol. They would bore anyone towards the "other side".......Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
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One important point we need to understand in the first place is that the existence of God cannot be proved in the same way you prove the existence of a physical object. This is simply because God is not a physical object. Any physical object is subject to your five senses. In simple terms, you can see, hear, smell, touch or taste a physical object. This is not possible in the case of God, as He (swt) is a Transcendental Being [existing on a level beyond our sensual perception].

I stand on god all day ahmadab. God is physical. In simple terms you can hear because god allows sound waves to impact your ears, you can smell because god has provided you with a probiscus, you can touch and taste because you are equiped with very advanced tactile equipment all of that while you stand on her back staring at her warm sunshinny face. So you admit you are insensitive to the physical manifestations of god and repudiate all her majestic physicality for what? A promise of an etherial formless idol? You live in the transendental being, there is no place else to go, you have no escape, forget your dreams you're stuck here with the rest of us, enjoy the trip, next stop here and the one after that, here again and again and again untill you get it right and you remember that you're not going anywhere, you'll be a part of the one for all eternity, you don't have any choice. None of this applys to me though because I'm special. Enough about god get back to work we have flowers that need to be appreciated.:smile:
 

talloola

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 14, 2006
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Just like how you say " people that believe in God are very narrow minded people, they believe their view is true and anything opposed is false" I can easily say as well "atheists are very narrow minded people! They believe their view is true and anything opposed to it is false."

It works both ways.:smile: Also, many people are victims of the Catholic church, some more ways than one. The whole religion is ceremonies, traditions, and protocol. They would bore anyone towards the "other side".......Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

You abviously read my post, but you didn't comprehend it, I said that I did understand how the believers feel, but you don't understand how we feel, I am suggesting that we
accept each other's decisions, and the 'narrow minded suggestion', is because most religious people will not take the time to understand how athiests feel, most of the
time we are 'defending' ourselves, because we are criticized for 'not' being religious.
Of course we both believe that our own views are true, that's obvious.
 

MHz

Time Out
Mar 16, 2007
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When God kills a man is that equal to a man killing a man. When a man does it he cannot undo it, what he kills says dead. Man never kills something he created as he himself is a created being.
Has God killed anybody that would be alive today had He not done so. No, that last Scripture was written over 1900 years ago. It is a rarity for somebody these days to reach over 100. They are dead and did God kill them. In a way because when He gave man life He also had a mechanism in place that would take that life away. God didn't cause that mechanism to be put in motion, Satan did. How many people have lived (inside and outside the Bible) that died without God being directly involved (as per all the instances in Scripture). Is Satan going to undo any of that? No, it will get worse. God can and does bring people back from death, both those who He caused to die directly and all the others who died indirectly. By making sure all man has died so far He has kept His word, eat and you shall die is accomplished via the breath of life leaving the living soul.
Trust me, this God is one that you will really want to stick to the script He has already written. Any variation would mean you turn your back on Him because what is being shown you is a deception.

Nor should He repent anything not yet accomplished, the really bad parts that He does is on the ones that are very, very bad. That is done in the last portion of 1 single day. death toll is 2/3 of the living remnant of mankind, the other 1/3 are the first gathered to immortal life. In the previous 1110 days 1/3 of man is killed via satanic angels, the men that assist this fallen army are a separate group from the 2/3,

So far you have Christ killing 2x as many in just a few hours compared to a smaller number over a much longer period, who is stronger?

Satan is finished, his next appearance is his trip to the Lake. After that all those who are not already immortal are brought back to life by God Himself, that would certainly include any He had killed in the OT (actually, because He did do they are most likely one of the first granted immortality and a just heart.

So, how do you conclude that He is breaking His word?
He is already obeying His own Law, He has to keep taking the breath of live from everybody, old age most likely the preferred as He capped that at 120. You are bitching at somebody for doing what they said they would do. That is a more admiral trait than saying you will do something and then doing nothing, or like your example, the opposite. Isn't that how some people dissect political speeches.

A previous post say men can fight for God. If you actually harm somebody in that war, that is what God will do to you, maybe even more so in that He can follow you past death, we can't.

I could provide a verse that states if you support someone in some way and they kill somebody 'for God', when God comes to correct that anybody involved in any part of how that event took place is just as guilty. That is why the army that comes against Christ does not have to be that number, those that are any help are living carelessly.

Which of the above would you hang Him for first?
 

In Between Man

The Biblical Position
Sep 11, 2008
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You abviously read my post, but you didn't comprehend it, I said that I did understand how the believers feel, but you don't understand how we feel,
This is the internet. For all you know I could be a sixty year old atheist who likes to play devil's advocate.;) Fact is, I know a lot about the "other side" and it's argument against the existence of God.

I am suggesting that we
accept each other's decisions, and the 'narrow minded suggestion', is because most religious people will not take the time to understand how athiests feel, most of the
time we are 'defending' ourselves, because we are criticized for 'not' being religious.

Yeah, people suck. Religious people do some pretty stupid, contradictory stuff. Never allow the actions or words from people that are misguided themselves, to cloud your judgement. Weigh the evidence. I've looked at both cases.

Of course we both believe that our own views are true, that's obvious.

Only one is correct. The other false.
 

In Between Man

The Biblical Position
Sep 11, 2008
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Before embarking on this quest I'd suggest you visit your local library or book store and get Richard Dawkin's book The Blind Watchmaker and Victor Stenger's God: The Failed Hypothesis.

Well, let me tell you about what I've read. Even Richard Dawkin's admits the appearance of design. "Biology is the study of complicated things that give the appearance of of having been designed for a purpose." Two pages later, despite acknowledging "the intricate architecture and precision-engineering" in human life and in each of the trillions of cells within the human body, Dawkin's flatly denies that any life has been designed. Apparently, Dawkin's refuses to allow observation to interfere with his conclusions. It seems to me that Dawkin's is more Anti-God, than Pro-Science.

Francis Crick, codiscoverer of DNA and ardent atheist agrees with Dawkin's about the appearance of design. In fact, appearance of design is so clear that he warns that "biologists must constantly keep in mind that what they see was not designed, but rather evolved"

Constantly remind themselves? These biologists must keep repeating that reminder to themselves otherwise they may become conscious of the reality staring them in the face and trying to get their attention. Why ignore the evidence? Their preconceived ideology prevents them from even considering an intelligent cause.

If you still want to proceed, well, as I said, give it your best shot, and we'll see what shakes out. But if you come up with anything I haven't seen before, I'll be very surprised
I wish to proceed. :)
 
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talloola

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alleywayzalwayz;99242.[/quote said:
7]This is the internet. For all you know I could be a sixty year old atheist who likes to play devil's advocate.;) Fact is, I know a lot about the "other side" and it's argument against the existence of God.

I can't argue against the existence of god, I will leave that to Dexter, who has read extensively and has lots of scientific knowledge at his fingertips, and much knowledge of
the bible as well, and quite a memory, and also Scott Free, who tells it like it is, for me. My journey from being totally religious to one
of atheism grew slowly until I was completely comfortable in my knew skin, and I have
never looked back. I cannot comprehend believing in a god, I would feel silly, as I would,
at my age, feel silly believing in the easter bunny or santa clause, it's all the same to me,
so that's where I'm at. There is no point in reading the bible, or argueing with
anyone, I am not competetive in this area, but I am settled. All the religious quotes
that come through this board, to me are like fairy tales, and come across as quite
humorous, I can't connect in any way at all to them, and I feel embarrassed for all who
think and believe that any of it is true.

Yeah, people suck. Religious people do some pretty stupid, contradictory stuff. Never allow the actions or words from people that are misguided themselves, to cloud your judgement. Weigh the evidence. I've looked at both cases.



Only one is correct. The other false
That's right.
 

In Between Man

The Biblical Position
Sep 11, 2008
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This the official second post on my case, in favour of intelligent design. In closing on my original post, I said I would show some principles that show order and design in the universe. But first I think I'm going to show some backup points to how we know that the universe, (all time, space, matter,) had a beginning. (bear with me, I'm sure few will disagree with the principle that there was a big bang, but I need to reference some of these points later. It helps my case.)
This is real science. Unbiased stuff we know about the universe:

Backup point #1

The Law of Entropy -- commonly called the Second Law of Thermodynamics

Thermodynamics is the study of matter and energy, and the second law states, among other things, that the universe is running out of usable energy. With each passing moment, the amount of usable energy in the universe grows smaller, leading scientists to the obvious conclusion that one day all the energy will be gone and the universe will die. Like a running car, the universe will ultimately run out of gas.

"So what? How does that prove that the universe had a beginning?" Well, the First Law of thermodynamics states that total amount of energy in the universe is constant. In other words, the universe has only a finite amount of energy(just like a car, with a finite amount of gas). Now, if your car has only a finite amount of gas(the First Law), and whenever it's running it continually consumes gas(the Second Law), would your car be running right now if you had started it up an infinite amount of time ago? Of course not! It would have run out of gas by now. The universe is the same way. It would have been out of energy if it had been running from all eternity. But here we are -- the lights are still on, so the universe must have begun in the finite past. The universe is not eternal. It had a beginning.

:smile: More to come, gotta go, other stuff to do.....
 

Dexter Sinister

Unspecified Specialist
Oct 1, 2004
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Even Richard Dawkin's admits the appearance of design.
Yes, of course he does, the appearance of design is undeniable. But that's the point, it's only a superficial appearance, not really the way it is, and it disappears on closer inspection. Cumulative natural selection, properly understood (which most people don't), is a perfectly adequate explanation for the appearance of design, as Dawkins convincingly demonstrates in The Blind Watchmaker and Climbing Mount Improbable.

As I recently pointed out here, the argument from design explains the problem of how all this organized complexity came to be by simply postulating it, which doesn't really explain anything, it just assumes the existence of what it's trying to explain. It takes one step back from what we see directly and postulates a designer as the source of it, but the designer must be at least as complex and organized as his design, and that just creates another problem to be explained: where did the designer come from? And that really does need an explanation or the argument just goes in circles: organized complexity exists because organized complexity exists.

However, proceed as you wish and we'll see what turns up. I hope you can surprise me.
 

Scott Free

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May 9, 2007
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A good case can be made that we don't really exist at all IMO.

The great mystery of "why there is anything at all" is easily solved if we're not really anything.
 
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ahmadabdalrhman

Electoral Member
Sep 14, 2008
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One important point we need to understand in the first place is that the existence of God cannot be proved in the same way you prove the existence of a physical object. This is simply because God is not a physical object. Any physical object is subject to your five senses. In simple terms, you can see, hear, smell, touch or taste a physical object. This is not possible in the case of God, as He (swt) is a Transcendental Being [existing on a level beyond our sensual perception].

I stand on god all day ahmadab. God is physical. In simple terms you can hear because god allows sound waves to impact your ears, you can smell because god has provided you with a probiscus, you can touch and taste because you are equiped with very advanced tactile equipment all of that while you stand on her back staring at her warm sunshinny face. So you admit you are insensitive to the physical manifestations of god and repudiate all her majestic physicality for what? A promise of an etherial formless idol? You live in the transendental being, there is no place else to go, you have no escape, forget your dreams you're stuck here with the rest of us, enjoy the trip, next stop here and the one after that, here again and again and again untill you get it right and you remember that you're not going anywhere, you'll be a part of the one for all eternity, you don't have any choice. None of this applys to me though because I'm special. Enough about god get back to work we have flowers that need to be appreciated.:smile:

your word the truth too , I'm cry in deepnesses deepnesses my heart , and invocation to the god to proselyting you to of his method ,..:-(

بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم

" لَتَجِدَنَّ أَشَدَّ النَّاسِ عَدَاوَةً لِّلَّذِينَ آمنوا الْيَهُودَ وَالَّذِينَ أَشْرَكُواْ وَلَتَجِدَنَّ أَقْرَبَهُمْ مَّوَدَّةً لِّلَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ الَّذِينَ قَالُوَاْ إِنَّا نَصَارَى ذَلِكَ بِأَنَّ مِنْهُمْ قِسِّيسِينَ وَرُهْبَانًا وَأَنَّهُمْ لاَ يَسْتَكْبِرُونَ 82 وَإِذَا سَمِعُواْ مَا أُنزِلَ إِلَى الرَّسُولِ تَرَى أَعْيُنَهُمْ تَفِيضُ مِنَ الدَّمْعِ مِمَّا عَرَفُواْ مِنَ الْحَقِّ يَقُولُونَ رَبَّنَا آمَنَّا فَاكْتُبْنَا مَعَ الشَّاهِدِينَ 83 وَمَا لَنَا لاَ نُؤْمِنُ بِاللّهِ وَمَا جَاءنَا مِنَ الْحَقِّ وَنَطْمَعُ أَن يُدْخِلَنَا رَبَّنَ ا مَعَ الْقَوْمِ الصَّالِحِينَ 84 "

In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

[82] Strongest among men in enmity to the Believers wilt thou find the Jews and Pagans; and nearest among them in love to the Believers wilt thou find those who say, "We are Christians": because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant.
[83] And when they listen to the revelation received by the Messenger, thou wilt see their eyes overflowing with tears, for they recognise the truth: they pray: "Our Lord! we believe; write us down among the witnesses.
 
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Vanni Fucci

Senate Member
Dec 26, 2004
5,239
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38
8th Circle, 7th Bolgia
the-brights.net
[82] Strongest among men in enmity to the Believers wilt thou find the Jews and Pagans; and nearest among them in love to the Believers wilt thou find those who say, "We are Christians": because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant.
[83] And when they listen to the revelation received by the Messenger, thou wilt see their eyes overflowing with tears, for they recognise the truth: they pray: "Our Lord! we believe; write us down among the witnesses.

All this shows us is that the architects of your particular flavour of religion wrote in some compelling clauses that will leave you inevitably distrustful of anyone who tries to talk some sense into you...

Don't you fret none though, because virtually all religions have a similar tenet and is the basis upon which the faithful can be kept in line and not able to think for themselves...

...but this is not the only means of control...there are many...the concept of sin, damnation of the unbelievers...that sort of thing...

Which is why I will reject them all utterly...no one, or nothing will tell me what or how to think...

...especially not your invisible arm-chair boogey-man friend in the clouds...
 

GreenFish66

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Apr 16, 2008
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God or whatever you believe(iTt) is has ingested all that is informaton and all that is energy..All the physical ..all the mind .ALL THAT WAS ..IS ..AND SHALL BE..ITt has evolved along with evrything else....GET WITH THE TIMES!!!!,,THAT'S OLD NEWS!....The ways have changed..ITt is more understanding and stronger now!..Let's feed ITt positives, not the negatives...Our we will fail ITt! We will all fall with iTt...IT WILL BE EVIL and HATE US!!!....OPEN YOUR EYE'S ,OPEN YOUR MIND!...And you will truly see the light/ feel ITts true power!/ ...Positives are rewarded ...Negatives are swated and thwarted !......You guys take this stuff way too seriously!.....Mother earth is gia..God is a populator. They pro create through pan spermia ..with a BIG BANG!!!...Or maybe the female is a blackhole...men are matter???....Women are negative...men positive?...In a mathamatical kinda way of course...!....Balance and sustainability is always the key!