Does God exist?

[darkbeaver]

Okay, fair enough Beave, interesting take on it. Be nice to have that Socrates around to give us his take on the modern world. I would, however, argue strongly that the intellectual development we call science, which Socrates really knew nothing about, has given us the knowledge and the means to end or prevent much human misery and suffering in ways and on a scale no religion ever has or ever could. I'd call that progress.

I don't mean to be obtuse only inquisitive. Is science the only intellectual developement or the only the primary intellectual developement or is it the road to the apex of intellectual developement? I see science in and of itself as an intellectual deadend because it is "only"rational and I'm convinced, and reluctantly I will add, that intellectual developement cannot possibly hinge on science alone because humans are inherantly unscientific. So if we engender science with imperial importance it will work to make us inhuman rational creatures completely predictable and completely doomed to extinction soon after the scientific breakthrough of some decade in the near future.
I maintain, quite rightly I think,that science can never complete the job of rationalisation of the whole thing, the universe has a massive head start. That's not intented to deny science it's due but only to suppose a far more complex universe than what "our" rational thinking can encompase.
So the religious or spiritual or mystic modes of intellectualization provide an important bridge between the rational and the unknown, it teachs the student of life to go beyond the barriers of the known or the tangebles and into the realm of make believe to invent or create reality. Of course I'm not talking about the usual floggers of best sellers here on the self help shelf at Coles. The best magicians have a foot in both states I think. While it would be stupid to insist that religion as we know it in it's commonly marketed vulgar forms is responsible for the birth of science I do however think that you will understand where I'm heading with this line of touchy feely reasoning.

 

[darkbeaver]

A good case can be made that we don't really exist at all IMO.

The great mystery of "why there is anything at all" is easily solved if we're not really anything.

hahahahahah that's true ain't it, get the needles out and try, ouch ouch , did that realy hurt or am I only dreaming the pain, write us an essay, convince us you're not here, I know I'm not. I think I know I'm not.

 

[darkbeaver]

God or whatever you believe(iTt) is has ingested all that is informaton and all that is energy..All the physical ..all the mind .ALL THAT WAS ..IS ..AND SHALL BE..ITt has evolved along with evrything else....GET WITH THE TIMES!!!!,,THAT'S OLD NEWS!....The ways have changed..ITt is more understanding and stronger now!..Let's feed ITt positives, not the negatives...Our we will fail ITt! We will all fall with iTt...IT WILL BE EVIL and HATE US!!!....OPEN YOUR EYE'S ,OPEN YOUR MIND!...And you will truly see the light/ feel ITts true power!/ ...Positives are rewarded ...Negatives are swated and thwarted !......You guys take this stuff way too seriously!.....Mother earth is gia..God is a populator. They pro create through pan spermia ..with a BIG BANG!!!...Or maybe the female is a blackhole...men are matter???....Women are negative...men positive?...In a mathamatical kinda way of course...!....Balance and sustainability is always the key!

I Feel that's the way it is but I don't know that intellectually I know that instinctively perhaps.

 

[Scott Free]

hahahahahah that's true ain't it, get the needles out and try, ouch ouch , did that realy hurt or am I only dreaming the pain, write us an essay, convince us you're not here, I know I'm not. I think I know I'm not.

That wasn't exactly what I meant.

It is intuitive to suggest we are real since the evidence of our existence comes from the cogito. This is to say that we intuit our reality only because we can perceive it. I am suggesting that this isn't enough evidence. I am not a materialist and I don't think reality is self evident. I took something on "faith" once before only to discover I was mistaken and I don't wish to do that again. I say this because the material is only evident to those who can perceive it. The material is not evidence to itself of its reality. We see evidence of this in the quantum and in the cosmological IMO. If we try and find concrete evidence of our existence we come up empty and discover the only evidence we have is our oppinion. This satisfies my intuition that says we aren't real because we couldn't be. It solves the great question of how could there be anything at all by answering there really isn't anything.

Yes, this does mean I have a way of explaining how nothing can look like so much something. Receantly I have discovered how to order these ideas into a cohecive argument and explain them in a logical way. I took Dexters advice and learned how to reason. Much to my suprise the ideas I had didn't become less probable but more so!

So, yeah, I don't think anything exists the way we intuit it to exist. I actually don't think it possibly could.

 

[ahmadabdalrhman]

The Big Bang Echoes through the Map of the Galaxy



By: HARUN YAHYA
In the two widest-ranging exercises on mapping the galaxies carried out to date, scientists have made findings that offer serious support for the Big Bang theory. The results of the research were presented at the winter conference of the American Astronomical Society.
The wide extent of the distribution of galaxies is evaluated by astrophysicists as one of the most important legacies from the first phases of the universe to have come down to the present day. It is therefore possible to refer to the information on the distribution and location of the galaxies as "a window opening onto the history of the universe."
In their research that lasted several years, two independent teams, composed of British, Australian and American scientists, produced a three-dimensional map of some 266,000 galaxies. The scientists compared the data they collected on the distribution of the galaxies with the data for the Cosmic Background Radiation emitted everywhere in the universe, and made important discoveries regarding the origin of galaxies. Researchers analyzing the data concluded that the galaxies formed where matter that formed 350,000 years after the Big Bang relatively clustered together, and then assumed their shape under the influence of the force of gravity.

According to the Big Bang theory, everything began from the explosion of a point of infinite density and zero volume. As time passed, space expanded and the gaps between heavenly bodies grew.
The findings in question confirmed the Big Bang theory, which states that the universe began from the explosion of a single point of zero volume and infinite density some 14 billion years ago. This theory has constantly been confirmed by tests consisting of decades of astronomical observations, and stands unrivalled on the most solid of foundations. The Big Bang is accepted by the great majority of present-day astrophysicists, and constitutes scientific verification of the fact that God created the universe from nothing.
In its ten-year-long research, the Anglo-Australian Observatory in the Australian state of New South Wales determined the positions in space of 221,000 galaxies by means of a three-dimensional mapping technique. The survey, which was performed with a 3.9 meter diameter telescope at the observation post, was almost ten times larger than any previous such study. (1) Under the leadership of Dr. Matthew Colless, director of the observatory, the team of scientists first determined the position of galaxies relative to one another and the distances between them. Then they modeled the distribution of the galaxies and studied the minute variations in that model in great detail. The scientists offered their research for publication in the journal Monthly Notices of the Royal Astronomical Society.
In a similar study carried out by the Apache Point Observatory in New Mexico, USA, the positions of some 46,000 galaxies in another region of space were similarly mapped and their distribution was investigated. The study, involving the use of a 2.5 meter diameter Sloan telescope, was carried out under the leadership of Daniel Eisenstein of the University of Arizona, and is to be published in the Astrophysical Journal. (2)
The results obtained by the two groups were announced during the winter meeting of the American Astronomical Society in San Diego, California, USA on 11 January, 2005.

Data obtained from the COBE satellite in 1992 revealed minute fluctuations in the emission of Cosmic Background Radiation.
An Important Confirmation
The data obtained as the result of long and careful work confirmed estimates made decades ago in the field of astronomy regarding the origin of the galaxies. In the 1960s, theoreticians estimated that galaxies may have seeded in regions where matter massed in a slightly higher concentration shortly after the Big Bang. If that estimate is correct, then the seeds of the galaxies should be capable of being observed in the form of tiny fluctuations in heat levels in the remains of radiation left over from the Big Bang and known as Cosmic Background Radiation.
Cosmic Background Radiation is heat radiation that only began being emitted 350,000 years after the Big Bang. This radiation, emitted everywhere in the universe, represents a snapshot of the 350,000-year-old universe, and can be observed rather like a fossil in the present day. This radiation, first discovered in 1965, was recognized as definitive proof of the Big Bang with various studies and observations, and was investigated in great detail. Data obtained from the COBE (Cosmic Background Explorer) satellite in 1992 confirmed the estimates made in the 1960s and revealed that there were ripples in the Cosmic Background Radiation. (3) Although at that time a partial link had been determined between these and the formation of the galaxies, that link could not be definitely shown until now.
However, that important link was constructed in the latest studies. Colless and Eisenstein's teams determined a match between the ripples seen in Cosmic Background Radiation and those in the distances between galaxies. It was thus established that the galaxies seeded in places where matter that emerged 350,000 years after the Big Bang concentrated in slightly higher densities.
At a press conference on the subject, Dr. Eisenstein said that the way galaxies are scattered across the sky now corresponds to the sound waves that gave rise to that distribution. Researchers think that gravity affected the waves and shaped the galaxies. Eisenstein made the following comment:
"We regard this as smoking-gun evidence that gravity has played the major role in growing from the initial seeds in the microwave background (left over from the Big Bang) into the galaxies and clusters of galaxies that we see around us." (4)
In a statement to the AAP news agency, Russell Cannon, from the other research team, noted that the findings were of the greatest importance, and summarized the significance of the research in these terms:
"What we've done is show the pattern of the galaxies, the distribution of the galaxies which we see here and now, is completely consistent with this other pattern that's seen in remnants of the big bang…" (5)
Findings were also obtained from the study regarding the levels of matter and energy that constitute the universe, and the universe's geometrical form. According to these, the universe consists of 4% normal matter, 25% dark matter (matter that cannot be observed but that is calculated to exist), and the rest of dark energy (mysterious energy that leads to the universe expanding faster than expected). As for the geometrical shape of the universe - it is flat.
Support for the Big Bang

Sir Martin Rees
The findings made in these studies have further strengthened the Big Bang theory. Dr. Cannon said that the research added serious weight to the Big Bang theory about the origin of the universe and emphasized that support in these words:
"We've known for a long time that the best theory for the universe is the Big Bang -- that it started in some enormous explosion in a tiny space and it expanded ever since." (6)
In a comment regarding the studies, Sir Martin Rees, the well-known Cambridge University astronomer, noted that despite using different statistical techniques and observations, the teams had arrived at the same conclusion, and that he regarded this as an indication of the results' accuracy. (7)
Physicsweb.org, one of the most important physical sciences portals on the Internet, commented that the studies "provide further evidence for the standard big bang plus inflation model of cosmology." (8)
Scientists learned that the universe had a beginning (Big Bang) and was expanding (Inflation) by reading the radiation and heavenly bodies in space thanks to the possibilities of modern science. However, these fundamental data are not at all new to mankind. Mankind has been reading these two facts, which scientists were only able to read in the depths of space in the 20th century, in the Qur'an for the last 1,400 years.
Two Basic Pieces of Information about the Standard Cosmological Model Are Provided in the Qur'an
In the Qur'an, and in the Torah and the Bible that were corrupted after their revelation, God has revealed that the universe and all matter were created out of nothing; in the Qur'an, the only text that has not been corrupted, He reveals one other miraculous secret that the universe is expanding.
The way the universe came into "being" from "non-being" is reported thus in the Qur'an:
He is the Originator of the heavens and the earth. (Qur'an, 6:101)
The expansion of the universe, one of the main areas of research of modern science, is revealed in this verse:
And it is We Who have constructed the heaven with might, and it is We Who are steadily expanding it. (Qur'an, 51:47)
As we have seen, two elements of the standard cosmological model, the Big Bang and Inflation, were reported in the Qur'an at a time when the means of astronomical observation were very limited. This represents clear proof that the Qur'an was revealed by God. The findings of modern science are in complete agreement with what is related in the Qur'an, and these latest studies once again draw attention to that close compatibility.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

... constitutes scientific verification of the fact that God created the universe from nothing.

It does not confirm that god did it, that's merely an unsupported assumption and not the only possible hypothesis.

 

[ahmadabdalrhman]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Earth’s Seven Layers[/FONT]​

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] Quranic and Prophetic Miracle

Author: Abdul Daem Al-Kaheel
Translation: Nassim JamalEddin Dhaher
Revised by : Magdy Abd Al-Shafy​

When scientists started to probe the valleys of Earth and in order to know its structure and constituents, they found that tales and myths that dominated in the earlier centuries have no scientific basis. After scientists discovered that the earth is egg-shaped , they suggested that the core of this ball has a nucleus, and its shell is a very thin crust when compared to the Earth’s size, and between these two layers, there is a third, known as the mantle . this was the knowledge of the early scientists.
Development of Scientific Facts
The Three Layer -Theory did not last for so long due to recent discoveries in Geology. Recent measurements and experiments showed that the material comprising the nucleus of the Earth is under very high pressure, three million times more than that on the surface of the Earth.
Under such pressure, matter transforms into solid state, this in turn makes Earth’s core very solid,This core is surrounded by a liquid layer of very high temperature. This means that there are two layers in Earth’s core and not one.Two layers; one solid in the center surrounded by another liquid layer.
Thereafter measuring devices advanced and presented to scientists a clear distinction among Earth’s inner layers. If we were to descend under the earth’s crust we would find another layer of very hot stones , which is the stone cover or wrap. After that come three other distinct layers of varying density, pressure and temperature.
Therefore scientists found themselves classifying the layers of Earth into seven layers, not more. The figure shows these layers with their dimensions (some are out of scale) according to what scientists have recently found using methods like earthquake measuring devices and the study of Earth’s magnetic field, among other techniques. These studies and discoveries are being taught to these scientists’ students in universities.​

​

Figure showing Earth’s seven layers, notice that the crust is very thin followed by mantle of varying thickness, then came the core comprised of a liquid and finally a seventh solid nucleus.
Scientists have found that the atom is also comprised of seven layers or levels, and this proves the uniformity of creation, where Earth has seven layers and atoms have seven layers as well. This creation therefore is ruled by only one creator.
Earth’s seven layers vary greatly in structure, density, temperature and material. Therefore one cannot consider that Earth has only one layer as people anciently thought. Here we find that the idea of the Earth having layers is fairly recent and wasn’t presented or brought forward at the time when the Quran was being revealed. Those discoveries are what the Twenty First century -scientists tell us, What then does the book of Allah tell us?
In the Company of the Noble Quran
The Holy Quran, God's word , talks to us about the seven Heavens and also seven layers of Earth in the Quranic verses:
God says in the Holy Quran in this regard what means “Who has created the seven heavens one above another…” [Al-Mulk 3]
God says in the Holy Quran in this regard what means “It is Allah Who has created seven heavens and of the earth the like thereof (i.e. seven).” [Attalaq 12
The first verse has specified two traits for the heavens which are: their number which is seven, their organization, which is into layers , one on the of top of the other and this is according to the Quranic interpretation books and Arabic language dictionaries. As for the second verse, it confirms that Earth is similar to the Heavens from the part of the verse that says “…and of the earth the like thereof”, where since the Heavens are layers, then Earth is comprised of layers as well, and since the Heavens are seven, therefore Earth’s layers are seven as well.​

Here we need to pause and elaborate on Allah’s choice of words in the word: “Tibaqa” – which means layers one on top of another, and this is what scientists have recently discovered that Earth is comprised of layers, this in turn leads us to conclude that Al-Qur`an defined Earth’s shape, of layers, and it (Al-Quran) has also specified the number of these layers, seven. Henceforth Al-Qur`an chose a very specific word to describe Earth’s composition, so Al-Qur`an preceded the Twenty First Century scientists in mentioning Earths facts fourteen centuries ago. Isn’t this an overwhelming Quranic miracle?

If we contemplate 0n the Noble Prophet’s (peace and blessings be upon him) Hadeeth (sayings), we find one Hadeeth that confirms this fact of Earth’s seven overlapping layers. Prophet Mohammad (peace and blessings be upon him) says: “whomever oppressed someone a hand span’s distance from the Earth, gets surrounded by seven overlapping layers”[Bukhari 2321], the Hadeeth is telling us that Allah will punish those who oppress in Earth by being encircled and surrounded by seven Earthly layers. This definition for the word “Tawaqa” that was used in the Hadeeth is as found in Arabic Language Dictionaries.
The question here is: Isn’t this a great prophetic miracle? doesn’t this Hadeeth specify the number of Earth’s layers which are seven, and also mentions their nature of being overlapped or surrounding each other?From the word encircled used in the Hadeeth, we can deduce circular shapes and in three dimensions we can deduce spherical shapes.
Henceforth The Noble Qur’an and Prophetic Sunnah (traditions of the Prophet) preceded modern science to this scientific fact. In addition Al-Qur’an gave us the precise naming for the structure of Earth using the word “Tibaqa” or layers, and it has given us the accurate number for these layers which is seven, while scientists spent long years and changed their theories several times to come up with scientific theories previously mentioned in The Quran and Sunnah. Glory be to Allah the Greatest who said in his exalted book: “And on the earth are signs for those who have Faith with certainty, And also in your ownselves. Will you not then see?” [Athariyat, 20,21]​

[/FONT]

 

[Dexter Sinister]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]

God says in the Holy Quran in this regard what means “It is Allah Who has created seven heavens and of the earth the like thereof (i.e. seven).”​

[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]

You true believers really have to stretch to cling to your delusions.The seven heavens is an idea taken from the ancient Greeks, there don't appear to be seven of them, there's only one, and that sentence does not clearly say the earth has seven layers anyway. It could be read to mean there are seven earths, or that the earth has places on it like the seven heavens. You read it to mean the earth has seven layers only after you already got that from other sources. Besides, if you Google for "earth layers" you'll find references on the first page of results that say the earth has three, four, and five layers, it just depends on how much detail you want to get into and what basis you use to distinguish the layers. You've still got nothing.​

[/FONT]

 

[ahmadabdalrhman]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]

You true believers really have to stretch to cling to your delusions.The seven heavens is an idea taken from the ancient Greeks, there don't appear to be seven of them, there's only one, and that sentence does not clearly say the earth has seven layers anyway. It could be read to mean there are seven earths, or that the earth has places on it like the seven heavens. You read it to mean the earth has seven layers only after you already got that from other sources. Besides, if you Google for "earth layers" you'll find references on the first page of results that say the earth has three, four, and five layers, it just depends on how much detail you want to get into and what basis you use to distinguish the layers. You've still got nothing.​

[/FONT]

Prophet Mohammad (peace and blessings be upon him) says: “whomever oppressed someone a hand span’s distance from the Earth, gets surrounded by seven overlapping layers”[Bukhari 2321] :smile:

 

[Vanni Fucci]

I took Dexters advice and learned how to reason. Much to my suprise the ideas I had didn't become less probable but more so!

That's only because you perceive them to be probable based upon your own observations and how you interpret them...

While that sounds all Zen and all, I personally think the notion that we don't exist to be somewhat ludicrous and not necessarily conducive to creative thought, logic or reason...

...but that's just my perception...

 

[ahmadabdalrhman]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Cutaway of Earth's layers[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica][SIZE=+0]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica][SIZE=+0]Earthquakes are the phenomena experienced during sudden movements of the Earth's crust. Under the Earth's crust lies the asthenosphere, the upper part of the mantle composed of liquid rock. The plates of the Earth's crust essentially "float" on top of this layer, and can be forced to shift as the upwelling molten material below moves. As the plates shift (and thus interact with each other), an enormous amount of energy is released in the form of waves. Although they can occur anywhere on the planet with little or no warning, the most extreme earthquakes occur near plate boundaries, as the plates converge (collide), diverge (move away from another), or shear (grind past one another). Moving rock and magma within volcanoes can also trigger earthquakes. In all of these cases, large sections of the crust can fracture and move to-and-fro to dissipate the released energy. This "shaking" is the sensation felt during an earthquake. The energy released is often described in terms of "magnitude," a logarithmic scale used to describe how energetic an earthquake was; a quake of magnitude 2 is hardly noticeable without special monitoring equipment, while quakes over magnitude 8 may actually cause the ground to visibly heave and roll. Since the scale is logarithmic, a magnitude 8 quake is not four times more energetic than a magnitude 2 quake, but one billion times more energetic! [/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT]

 

[Vanni Fucci]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Cutaway of Earth's layers[/FONT]

[SIZE=+0][FONT=Arial, Helvetica][FONT=Arial, Helvetica][SIZE=+0]Earthquakes are the phenomena experienced during sudden movements of the Earth's crust. Under the Earth's crust lies the asthenosphere, the upper part of the mantle composed of liquid rock. The plates of the Earth's crust essentially "float" on top of this layer, and can be forced to shift as the upwelling molten material below moves. As the plates shift (and thus interact with each other), an enormous amount of energy is released in the form of waves. Although they can occur anywhere on the planet with little or no warning, the most extreme earthquakes occur near plate boundaries, as the plates converge (collide), diverge (move away from another), or shear (grind past one another). Moving rock and magma within volcanoes can also trigger earthquakes. In all of these cases, large sections of the crust can fracture and move to-and-fro to dissipate the released energy. This "shaking" is the sensation felt during an earthquake. The energy released is often described in terms of "magnitude," a logarithmic scale used to describe how energetic an earthquake was; a quake of magnitude 2 is hardly noticeable without special monitoring equipment, while quakes over magnitude 8 may actually cause the ground to visibly heave and roll. Since the scale is logarithmic, a magnitude 8 quake is not four times more energetic than a magnitude 2 quake, but one billion times more energetic! [/SIZE][/FONT][/FONT][/SIZE]

Wooh! That's exciting stuff alright...but in no way proves the existence of god or gives any merit to what's written in any religious scripture...

You should probably watch the Discovery Channel more...that'll set you straight...

 

[Scott Free]

That's only because you perceive them to be probable based upon your own observations and how you interpret them...

Maybe, but there are ways to test it.

While that sounds all Zen and all, I personally think the notion that we don't exist to be somewhat ludicrous and not necessarily conducive to creative thought, logic or reason...

I agree. Like I said it is counter intuitive.

If you like think of it this way then: we exist in a different fashion than we could suppose from intuition; so our existence isn't how we perceive it. We don't exist i.e., as we perceive our existence. This isn't to say we exist differently it is to say we perceive existence where there is non.

Let me put it this way: we can all agree on the colour green and what it is despite the fact there is no colour green. Green does not exist except we perceive it to exist. It is our perception alone that creates the colour green. In reality green is just a wave length of energy that our human eyes perceive as green. Cows can't see green like dogs can't see red. So to a cow there is no green - it does not exist and to the dog red does not exist.

It turns out, IMO, quite a lot does not exist to us. I'm not a scientist or an engineer so the ramifications of this hypothesis are a little lost on me, which is why I am proceeding carefully. As I said in another post I have experimented to my satisfaction that I see moving forward as worthwhile. Caution is warranted though because, on the whole, we are a stupid and vicious species.

...but that's just my perception...

It is and I am fully aware I could be wrong. Thank you for the caution.

Being right isn't too interesting for me it's the journey I love :lol:

 

[Vanni Fucci]

Maybe, but there are ways to test it.

I'm just a little curious to know what your criterion you are using to test this theory...

Cows can't see green like dogs can't see red. So to a cow there is no green - it does not exist and to the dog red does not exist.

How then do the cows know on which side of the fence the best grass is to be found?

Being right isn't too interesting for me it's the journey I love :lol:

With this I find great merit...

An eternal search for logical answers to the questions of the universe should be the responsibility of any progressive civilization such as we claim to be...

...and not holding fast to superstitions that have governed us so far is a good first step...

 

[Dexter Sinister]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica][SIZE=+0]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica][SIZE=+0]Earthquakes are the phenomena... [/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT]

Yes, I know all about earthquakes, my first degree was in geophysics. Why does that picture of the earth's interior show only 5 layers? You've made much of the claim that there are 7. Two of the labeled items aren't layers, they're the discontinuities where abrupt changes in composition occur. They're just boundaries between layers, not layers themselves.

 

[Scott Free]

I'm just a little curious to know what your criterion you are using to test this theory...

I had an hypothesis and decided if it were true then I should be able to demonstrate it. I demonstrated it for myself and a friend.

I have also made predictions.

I have no intention of proving any of this to anyone. I simply bring these things up to suggest that there maybe a great many options that we aren't yet aware of. It is such options that I am interested in. We (people, science, philosophy etc) seem to have hit some walls with the more traditional ones.

 

[ahmadabdalrhman]

Yes, I know all about earthquakes, my first degree was in geophysics. Why does that picture of the earth's interior show only 5 layers? You've made much of the claim that there are 7. Two of the labeled items aren't layers, they're the discontinuities where abrupt changes in composition occur. They're just boundaries between layers, not layers themselves.

from clear it that there are 7 layers .

​

 

[Dexter Sinister]

Is science the only intellectual developement or the only the primary intellectual developement or is it the road to the apex of intellectual developement?

No, I wouldn't make any such claims, that would entirely devalue all other creative activities, like music and poetry and art, but I would claim that it's the only reliable method we've ever found for testing the truth content of claims, which gives it a special status.

I see science in and of itself as an intellectual deadend because it is "only"rational and I'm convinced, and reluctantly I will add, that intellectual developement cannot possibly hinge on science alone because humans are inherantly unscientific

I think your understanding of science is a little off the mark. It's by no means "only rational," that's just how its results are presented and explained, but it is first and foremost a creative human activity with all the usual strengths and weaknesses of such things. The history of scientific discovery is full of stories of great creative and intuitive leaps, and great frauds and errors and nasty personalities, and all the rest of it.

...it will work to make us inhuman rational creatures completely predictable and completely doomed to extinction....

It won't be science that'll do that. That'll be done, as Jacob Bronowski put it, by dogma, arrogance, and a belief in absolute knowledge, with no test in reality.

... I do however think that you will understand where I'm heading with this line of touchy feely reasoning.

Yes, I think I do, I have a twin sister whose thoughts parallel yours pretty closely. I also think you're wrong. Both of you. :smile:

 

[Dexter Sinister]

from clear it that there are 7 layers

Uh huh. I note that on the right side of the image there are three layers identified, lithosphere, mantle, and core, and the first two overlap. On the left side of the image there are four layers identified, crust, mantle, outer core, and inner core. Seven layers are identified by different colours in the sketch, one of which is not named separately but is identified on the right as the uppermost solid part of the mantle. The asthenosphere is also part of the mantle, it's the transition zone where temperature and pressure are enough to make rock flow slowly without actually liquefying it. There's another narrow irregular layer called the D layer that isn't shown on the sketch, the transition zone between the lower mantle and the outer core. We can also distinguish two quite different types of crustal layer, the continental crust, which is primarily granitic, and the oceanic crust, which is primarily basaltic. Further subdivisions are possible for all the layers, they're not monolithic slabs of uniform composition with abrupt boundaries between them. Your picture is just a convenient conceptualization of some of the major features of the earth's interior, not all of them. It's perfectly possible to argue that the earth has three layers, four layers, five layers, up to at least nine that we know of, depending on how detailed you want to be, and it's foolish to think that better data won't make it possible to define many more subdivisions within the layers we know about. You've still got nothing but a convenient coincidence based on selective use of data.

 

[ahmadabdalrhman]