Catholic Discussion

sanctus

The Padre
Oct 27, 2006
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NOT NATURAL

smig of an out bust....but wow...NOT


The notion that celibacy is unbiblical, or even "unnatural" is human centred. Every man, it is claimed, must obey the biblical injunction to "Be fruitful and multiply" (Gen. 1:28); and Paul commands that "each man should have his own wife and each woman her own husband" (1 Cor. 7:2). It is even argued that celibacy somehow "causes," or at least correlates with higher incidence of, illicit sexual behavior or perversion.

All of this is false. Although most people are at some point in their lives called to the married state, the vocation of celibacy is explicitly advocated—as well as practiced—by both Jesus and Paul.

So far from "commanding" marriage in 1 Corinthians 7, in that very chapter Paul actually endorses celibacy for those capable of it: "To the unmarried and the widows I say that it is well for them to remain single as I am. But if they cannot exercise self-control, they should marry. For it is better to marry than to be aflame with passion" (7:8-9).

It is only because of this "temptation to immorality" (7:2) that Paul gives the teaching about each man and woman having a spouse and giving each other their "conjugal rights" (7:3); he specifically clarifies, "I say this by way of concession, not of command. I wish that all were as I myself am. But each has his own special gift from God, one of one kind and one of another" (7:6-7 ).

Paul even goes on to make a case for preferring celibacy to marriage: "Are you free from a wife? Do not seek marriage. . . those who marry will have worldly troubles, and I would spare you that. . . . The unmarried man is anxious about the affairs of the Lord, how to please the Lord; but the married man is anxious about worldly affairs, how to please his wife, and his interests are divided. And the unmarried woman or girl is anxious about the affairs of the Lord, how to be holy in body and spirit; but the married woman is anxious about worldly affairs, how to please her husband" (7:27-34).

Paul’s conclusion: He who marries "does well; and he who refrains from marriage will do better" (7:38).

Paul was not the first apostle to conclude that celibacy is, in some sense, "better" than marriage. After Jesus’ teaching in Matthew 19 on divorce and remarriage, the disciples exclaimed, "If such is the case between a man and his wife, it is better not to marry" (Matt 19:10). This remark prompted Jesus’ teaching on the value of celibacy "for the sake of the kingdom":

"Not all can accept this word, but only those to whom it is granted. Some are incapable of marriage because they were born so; some, because they were made so by others; some, because they have renounced marriage for the sake of the kingdom of God. Whoever can accept this ought to accept it" (Matt. 19:11–12).

Notice that this sort of celibacy "for the sake of the kingdom" is a gift, a call that is not granted to all, or even most people, but is granted to some. Other people are called to marriage. It is true that too often individuals in both vocations fall short of the requirements of their state, but this does not diminish either vocation, nor does it mean that the individuals in question were "not really called" to that vocation. The sin of a priest doesn’t necessarily prove that he never should have taken a vow of celibacy, any more than the sin of a married man or woman proves that he or she never should have gotten married. It is possible for us to fall short of our own true calling.

Celibacy is neither unnatural nor unbiblical. "Be fruitful and multiply" is not binding upon every individual; rather, it is a general precept for the human race. Otherwise, every unmarried man and woman of marrying age would be in a state of sin by remaining single, and Jesus and Paul would be guilty of advocating sin as well as committing it.
 

sanctus

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I had wonderful parents, five siblings, and a fabulous childhood, I couldn't imagine never being anybody's dad and never being able to pass any of that on to the next generation. Three years after that horrible unilateral policy announcement, I finally gave up trying to convince her that it was a bad decision, and decided I had no option but to cut my losses and flee, start over again. So I did. And in October of 1980 I married the splendid lady who still warms my bed and my heart. She also was raised Roman Catholic, and she knew I'd been married before in a Catholic church and didn't have an annulment, and she didn't care. She loved me, and that was good enough for her. She gave up the faith she was raised in, for me. The church told her she was out of communion, living in sin, and our children were bastards, and she told them to piss off. For me.

How could you not love a woman like that?

Indeed! Does she substitute another faith for that she gave up?
 

sanctus

The Padre
Oct 27, 2006
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Defending the Poor from the Jaded Rich

A CASE FOR CENSORSHIP

Thomas Storck

Anyone currently undertaking to defend censorship has to reckon not only with considerable abhorrence of the practice, but even with distaste for the word itself. It seems that even those who would like to restrict publications, broadcasts, or films shy away from the term "censorship." They are at pains to distinguish what they would do from what censors do. When the head of the National Coalition on Television Violence testified before Congress in December 1992 and presented a "10-point plan to sweep violence off TV and off our streets," it is interesting that the first point in the plan was "no censorship."

No one wants to own up to being a would-be censor, and thus very few are willing to stand up and openly defend this venerable practice. But I am happy to do so, for censorship has long seemed to me a necessary, if regrettable, part of practical political wisdom and an opportunity for the judicious exercise of human intelligence. For, human nature being what it is, it is naive to think we can freely read and view things that promote or portray evil deeds without sometimes feeling encouraged to commit such deeds. And if this is the case, then censorship can sometimes be a necessity.But before defending censorship I need to define it.

And I define censorship simply as the restriction, absolute or merely to some part of the population (e.g., to the unlearned or to children), by the proper political authorities, of intellectual, literary, or artistic material in any format. I want to note two things especially about this definition. First, I am not talking simply about censoring pornography. I also include censorship of works that are expressions of erroneous , a position which I realize is extremely unpopular today, even more hated than the banning of obscene works.Secondly, I am concerned only with censorship by governments. The determination of intellectual or cultural matters for the sake of the common good, such as what books and other things the nation may read or view, is not properly the work of private pressure groups or crusading individuals, though their work may sometimes be necessary when the state does not carry out its proper functions in this area. But the state alone has general care of the temporal common good, and censorship is one of the most important ways of safeguarding that good.I am concerned here only with censorship in the abstract. That is, I am not defending or advocating any particular act of censorship in the past, present, or future, or in any particular country or legal system, though I do need to offer some hypothetical examples. I am simply arguing that there is nothing intrinsically wrong with censoring. All I hope to achieve is to make a compelling case that censorship is an appropriate exercise of governmental power and that the practical difficulties necessarily involved, while great, are not overwhelming.

Since I am speaking of censorship in the abstract, considerations based on the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution or on decisions of the U.S. Supreme Court are not relevant to my argument. Whatever restrictions the American Constitution wisely or unwisely imposes on governmental power with respect to freedom of expression do not apply to governments What then is the case that can be made for censorship? It can be stated in the following simple thesis: Ideas lead to actions, and bad ideas often lead to bad acts, bringing harm to individuals and possible ruin to societies. Just as the state has the right to restrict and direct a person's actions when he is a physical threat to the community, so also in the matter of intellectual or cultural threats, the authorities have duties to protect the community.

It is obviously necessary for me to explain and defend these assertions, and the place to begin is with a discussion of the question of whether we can actually identify good and evil. I said above that "bad ideas often lead to bad acts," but if we cannot identify what is the bad, then clearly we cannot know either bad ideas or bad acts. One problem in discussions of whether we can know good and evil is the assumption that we either know all good and evil or we know none. It seems sometimes to be assumed that proponents of censorship are claiming to know good and evil exhaustively, that they know the moral status of everything that exists. But this is not the case.

If we knew with certainty that, say, only one thing was evil, and if that evil were great enough and threatened society enough, then we might well decide to censor expressions and advocacy of that one thing, regardless of how ignorant we were about other moral questions.Can we actually know any evils? I think each reader already knows or thinks he knows many more than one. So I will select an instance of evil-rape. I suspect that all readers would readily say that rape is clearly an evil. And an evil not because they think so, but an evil in and of itself. Not an evil because most people or most thinkers condemn it, but an evil independently of what other people might believe. If this is the case, then human beings know with certainty at least one example of evil.Now here is an example of something I think most people would agree was not only evil, but likely to encourage evil conduct. I have read that at some time during the 1970s there were billboards in Los Angeles and perhaps elsewhere advertising a Rolling Stones album which showed a pretty woman with bruises- black and blue marks-with the legend, "I'm black and blue from the Rolling Stones and I love it." Abuse of women is an evil, and the not too subtle encouragement given to the practice, by insinuating that women really want to be abused, seems to me an almost textbook example of the need for censorship.To return to my first example, suppose someone wrote a book arguing that women really want to be raped, that they enjoy it, and that men do them a favor by raping them. Suppose, in addition, the book maintained that rape is the best sex going and the best way to prove one's masculinity-including, by way of an appendix, statistics on how few rapists get caught and the light sentences often given. Now rape, I think we agreed above, is clearly an evil. Would anyone argue that such a book would not promote rapes? Even if it were true that many men would not be affected by such a book nevertheless can we confidently say that such a book would not be responsible for rapes? Do we want to remove whatever inhibitions there may be that restrain even one potential rapist?Now if we can identify certain evils, and if advocacy of those evils seems likely to encourage people to commit them, then why should we not take the next and logical step and prohibit such advocacy? If to commit certain evils is harmful to others and a crime, then why should advocating and encouraging such evils be perfectly lawful?

Must a community be unable to protect itself? Must the authorities be helpless to restrain the source of the evil?This constitutes the best case that can be made for censorship. But in most people's minds the case censorship looms much larger than any assent to this argument. It looms so much larger that in effect the real case for censorship is largely the removal of people's overwhelming fears of censorship. Most people's objections to censorship are based on fear.

So with this in mind, I will discuss the chief to censorship.The most fundamental objection, already touched on above, is to deny that we know with certainty any goods or any evils. If this were true, then in practicing censorship we would be just as likely to restrain some newfound truth as to protect society from some dangerous evil. And though this professed ignorance of good and evil is popular today, the only people who can consistently make such an argument are those who are not advocates of anything at all. I have never met any of them. Many may profess moral skepticism in a broad philosophical sense, but they are often the most passionate defenders of this or that cause or opinion. How they reconcile this with their supposed skepticism, if they even try, I do not know.The argument from skepticism is put very forcefully by John Stuart Mill's . But those who hold this opinion, and who argue most passionately against censorship on the grounds of our lack of certainty of good and evil, must face the fact that every time society makes a law it is making a judgment of good and evil. If some street thug had stolen Mill's hat, and when he demanded it back the policeman and magistrate replied that for all they knew private property might be immoral and therefore they could not compel the thief to return the hat, Mill might have been more than a little annoyed.

Yet to support the punishment of thieves while allowing the publication of books advocating theft-on the ground that we do not know whether theft is right or wrong-seems a trifle inconsistent and even hypocritical.Another objection is to deny that there is a connection between advocacy of evil and any actual instances of evil. But even among those who tend to oppose censorship, there is a recognition that ideas lead to action and bad ideas lead to bad action. For example, many liberally-minded people attempt to prevent their children, and everyone else's too, from reading books that perpetuate what they consider sexual stereotypes. They believe they have identified an instance of evil, "sexual stereotyping," and that reading books that promote it or take it for granted will tend to form "sexist" individuals who in turn will commit "sexist" acts. Regardless of whether one regards "sexual stereotypes" as evil, and regardless of whether one regards such liberally-minded people as in fact illiberal, this position is certainly a coherent one. It is easy to understand why such people do not want children reading books that contain what they consider to be evil. They have made the obvious judgment that writings tend to influence action, and almost all of us would understand such a judgment, even if we disagree with their application of that judgment in this particular case.

Take a couple different examples: How many of us would think that it would be of no consequence were the Ku Klux Klan or the neo-Nazis to own half the newspapers and television networks in the country? Or how many of us wouldn't mind if our children were regularly taught by outspoken racists in the schools? Indeed, if ideas expressed in written or spoken word do not lead men to act, then why does every political, religious, philosophical, or cultural group or movement attempt to persuade us by the written and spoken word how to live and act? And why are millions of dollars spent on commercial advertising?Perhaps few will now be bold-or illogical-enough to attack censorship on either of the above grounds. But there are two other arguments against censorship. The first is that whatever the formal case in favor of censorship, in actual practice censors have always stifled creativity and hindered the discovery of truth, so that whatever danger there is to society from the advocacy of evil, much more harm will result from the always stupid-and in some cases malicious-actions of the censors themselves.Strictly speaking, this argument is not opposed to the state's right to censor. It simply says that since we will always or nearly always do it unintelligently, it would be much better not to do it at all. Some of those who would argue thus might even admit the (purely theoretical) point that were there someone endowed with superhuman intelligence, knowledge, wisdom, and probity, it might be safe to allow him to be the censor. But never anyone else.

Although I am arguing for censor ship in the abstract, I thinking of the world as it actually is. And though I willingly admit that many instances of censorship by individuals and pressure groups have been stupid or perverse, still I believe that in a society fully committed to its practice, censorship can be carried on no more foolishly than we manage the rest of human affairs. Restrictions on books, films, or broadcasts always carry some danger. To give fallible men the power to decide what we can read or view or hear will surely sometimes allow excesses and even outrages. But so does giving some men the power to arrest or to punish. The question is: Is an activity necessary enough that we will accept inevitable abuses for the sake of the good that needs to be done? We make some men policemen and give them guns and the right to arrest others and even in some cases the right to use deadly force. Obviously there have been and will be abuses. But most of us do not advocate doing away with the police, even though they sometimes shoot and innocent people. Instead, things such as more and better education for policemen and more and clearer guidelines for use of force or of arrest are usually suggested. I would say similar things about censors.

The ideal censor is not some ill-educated, parochial bigot, but someone of liberal education and continued wide reading, someone with a grasp of first principles and enough experience and wisdom to see how they should be put into practice. Of course, even then our censors will make mistakes. As in all legal matters, there must be room for reconsideration and appeal. But if we know that something is evil, and see that its advocacy is likely to bring about or increase actual evil acts, then to do nothing because we anticipate that censors will sometimes err is not a responsible position to take. Those who think that, with censorship, literature and creativity will dry up, forget that most of the great works of the past, up to and in some cases beyond the 19th century, were produced under government or ecclesiastical censorship. When we think of a society in which censorship is practiced, we should think of the one that produced Shakespeare's plays or Cervantes's , not of the Bible Belt's narrow provincialism or the tyrannies of Hitler or Stalin. Censors need not be ignorant fanatics.The other argument commonly made against censorship is this: That in the free play of ideas, truth will ultimately and necessarily triumph. Censorship, therefore, is at best unnecessary and at worst a hindrance to the discovery of truth. Strictly speaking, this argument is really not against censorship, and when examined carefully will actually be found to support it. For even if it is the case that truth will always emerge from the give and take of free debate (a questionable proposition), how can the suppression of evident error harm that process?

If a number of assertions are competing for acceptance, and (let us say) we know that two of them are false, how can removing those two from the debate make it harder for the truth to be discerned among the rest? Surely by narrowing the field and leaving us more time to examine those theories that might be true, we have made it even more likely that the truth will be found in our free examination of conflicting ideas. Moreover, most of those who make the claim that truth will always emerge from totally free debate are not really interested in discovering truths. They simply use this argument to foster a climate in which relativism flourishes and mankind is perpetually in doubt about truth and error, right and wrong.A final point that must be noted is the connection between anti-censorship arguments and the free market. Both glorify individualism at the expense of the common good, and the rich at the expense of the poor. It is primarily the rich who promote and subsidize ideas and art that undermine traditional ways of life, and it is primarily the poor who suffer on that account. Society exists to protect and promote the welfare of all, but especially of the poor and the workingman.

To exalt the free and irresponsible expression of the individual is to take up a position contrary to the community's duty of protecting the poor. Only those with sufficient money and ennui have the time or resources to produce ideas or art that corrupt or debase. Censorship is a protection of the poor from the acting out of the perverted fantasies of the rich, from the Marquis de Sade to Leopold and Loeb. Who benefits today from the continuing corruption of the public by movies, television, and music filled with sex and violence? Studio owners, directors, actors, and suchlike. Like unfettered capitalism, complete freedom of expression is simply a means by which those with money and influence remake society at the expense of those without these things.This, I think, is what can be said on behalf of censorship. Our opposition to it is largely based on fear and the emotional effects of slogans. If we could free our minds, we might be able to consider the case for censorship and see that it has merit. That there is no consensus today about what is right and wrong does not disprove what I have said. For though now we could never actually produce a censorship code that commanded a consensus of support, yet we can still recognize in the abstract that censorship is a legitimate practice. It never hurts to order our thoughts correctly, even if we cannot just now put them into practice.


This article was taken from the May 1996 issue of the "New Oxford Review". -------------------------------------------------------
 
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sanctus

The Padre
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Myths of self-esteem

By W. Patrick Cunningham



One of the more enduring modern legacies of the Enlightenment is our obsession with measuring everything, even intangibles. Annually there are countless projects to measure the progress of schoolchildren in various countries. Over the past three decades American youngsters have in every category but one seen striking declines. In math, reading, writing, geography, history and the other core disciplines American children of the nineties are significantly inferior to their parents and grandparents. But their self-esteem, however measured, is much higher. In other words, they are inept in every important life skill, but they feel great about themselves!
We should not be surprised at this development. The education system has devoted uncounted resources to improving the self-esteem of children. Children’s educational programs all repeat “you are wonderful” incessantly. In fact, California Assemblyman John Vasconcellos heads up a legislative “Task Force on Self-Esteem.” Dozens of books are peddled to schools and churches, and used in the continuing education of educators, parents and clergy. Self-esteem checklists are hawked on the Internet, sold to millions and widely used.
Teachers and preachers are rightly concerned, with parents, about the severe decline in standards among youth. But most would fail to make the connection between the movement to improve self-esteem and that decline in standards. In fact, there is almost certainly a causal relationship between certain phony systems of self-esteem promotion and the decline in intellectual and moral standards. Only a widespread movement toward honesty in the self-esteem “industry,” and even more among those of us who influence others, can reverse this trend away from quality and high achievement, and moral integrity. And it is precisely with teachers, preachers and parents that the power lies to reverse this unhappy course.
Self-esteem, real and phony
Real self-esteem must develop hand-in-glove with the Socratic rule “know thyself.” If self-esteem is based on anything other than Truth, it is self-delusion. Authentic self-esteem begins with the understanding that everything God made is good, very good (Gen. 1:31). In street language, “God does not make junk.”
True self-esteem, however, is tempered by an understanding that while God’s work is very good, that work has been spoiled by both the original rebellion (Gen. 3) and the individual, personal rebellions that arise in every human heart day by day. Although human beings are very good, their actions are sometimes quite bad, because of their moral weakness and inclination toward evil (Rom. 7:13-23). Neither God nor God’s law is responsible for that evil, because it directly resulted from man’s free choice of evil actions over the good.
Phony self-esteem, on the other hand, gives only a passing recognition of reality. The most essential component of human self-esteem, the esteem peddlers seem to say, is that every human being should feel good about himself. To promote these feelings of self-worth, therapists and counselors help their subjects to repeat self-esteem mantras such as “I am good and worthwhile,” and to recall happy and productive incidents in their lives. Sin and error is intentionally glossed over, considered a passing and inconsequential facet of life, or blamed on an imperfect environment. Bad feelings and memories are things to be “healed” without the essential components of repentance and forgiveness.
It is fairly easy to see how an inauthentic self-esteem can lead to poor performance. Our weak human intellects are constantly confusing the “is” with the “ought,” and forever mixing up our being with our actions. If I constantly say “I am good and worthwhile” I can stray into the syllogism “therefore everything I do is good and worthwhile.” The impressionable child who is taught his essential goodness without an understanding of human weakness and sin will also hear that everything he does is good. Educators reinforce this confusion by employing systems of evaluation that assign positive-sounding marks even to inferior work. Thus a child who is struggling to read at grade level may be assessed as “using above-average effort” when in fact he is failing to accomplish the task. I may be working hard to move a boulder in my back yard, but I may still fail if I ignore the prybar in my garage.
The very language of self-esteem “checklists” seems to unintentionally reinforce this confusion. “I am as valuable as a person as anyone else” is a true statement, particularly in the light of the sacrifice of Christ that has given us the very life of Christ. Access to his redemptive act is available to all. However it is a slight thing to distort that aphorism into “My work is as worthwhile as anyone else’s,” a patently absurd statement. “I have the qualities I need to live well” is true for everyone, even those with mental impairments. But it can be misinterpreted to mean our human attributes cannot be improved on. It’s a short step to “why do I have to change all the time?”
We accomplish nothing useful on the moral level when we employ the same anemic kinds of language and standards to evaluate moral behavior. If we use the same terms (“significant other”) and assign the same benefits to those who “shack up” as to those who are lawfully married, then we are giving our tacit approval to living in sin, and we are devaluing moral behavior. We are giving the same “honor” to those who treat sex as a recreation as to those who sign forth its unitive and procreative reality. If we see cheating go on in the workplace and ignore it, then we are rewarding inept or immoral behavior, and ensuring that more of it will occur. “He doesn’t know any better” or “She was burned in her first marriage” are unacceptable excuses of evil actions. In our passion to avoid damage to the self-esteem of others, we have dispassionately demolished our society’s moral buttresses.
The better bad old days
Among the most passionate proponents of the self-esteem movement are certain religious educators who began to make loud noises in the seventies. Their influence has been felt in every phase of church life. The message is simple: get rid of the “Lo I am a wretch” spirituality and self-image, replacing it with the image of a man or woman empowered by Christ to do good and to feel good about self. In the “bad old days,” they tell us, we were constantly implored to make frequent confession, daily examinations of conscience. The result was depression and gloom and a very sad Church. By contrast, today we are supposed to focus on the good things of life and put aside the rest. “Don’t worry, be happy” they sing with Bobby McFerrin. Holy Communion forgives minor sins and indiscretions, so Confession is rare (and rarely available in most parishes).
The problem, of course, is that because life isn’t like that, the earthly paradise we were promised has not materialized. And it will not in the future. Despite a roaring economy, psychologists report more chronic depression today than ever before. Our society is wealthy, but mired in gloom. If we feel so good about ourselves, why are we on such a “downer”?
Phony self-esteem, after all, is self-delusion. On a natural level, self-esteem without self-understanding leads to presumption. We believe that everything should be OK because we are good and decent people. When, inevitably, something goes wrong with our life, we tend to despair. The cry then is “what did I do to deserve this?”
Again, we can refer to a popular checklist for some hints. “I feel warm and loving toward myself” is a statement that would be marked true by nearly everyone, even a psychopath. Human beings do not need explanations of the good times, or validations of their good feelings. We mortals feel self-doubt and consider life changes only when things go wrong. Improvement can come, in most lives, only when that life is badly fouled, when we are shaken out of our moral inertia. Feelings of self-worth, by themselves, are not enough to carry us through these bad times. We must look outside ourselves for help out of the moral and intellectual quicksands that we fall into.
Phony self-esteem, because it can impede progress toward positive change, is not good for one’s mental or spiritual health. Although the “bad old days” had problems with scrupulosity and pharisaical behavior, at least churchmen were telling the truth about man. Yes, we are redeemed by Christ. No, that doesn’t mean all our behavior is good. Yes, everything that God made is good. No, that doesn’t mean you can do whatever you like. Examination, repentance and confession were seen as necessary components of the Christian life, and promoted frequently. Today, we have even worse problems with moral laxness, presumption and pharisaical behavior. Only an utter Pollyanna would argue that the “bad old days” weren’t better than today.
Reforming self-esteem
If the self-esteem movement is to be beneficial to individuals and society, it must face up to its failures and itself achieve an authentic self-understanding. The optimistic model of man that it peddles has to be discarded. Man is, we all must admit, a good creation with self-induced flaws. Even on a secular level, we should all agree that “I am good and worthwhile, but my thoughts, words and actions can stand improvement.”
Thus we can be brought to the threshold of the Christian experience. Just as when we are born, we are good beings with much weakness, much potential, so also when we are born through Baptism into Christ, we are incipient Christs for the world still having much moral weakness and potential. Through study and experience, we learn to discern the good from the bad. Through prayer and the operation of grace (especially sacramentally), we acquire the power to do good and avoid evil. We are, in Christ, becoming less our weak, self-absorbed “I” and more the powerful, self-giving child of God. At every moment, then, we are in some sense both a finished product and a work-in-progress. Ultimately, at the moment when our self-improvement by grace is perfected, we are so utterly one with Christ that we self-identify with him. We understand at last that whatever in us is good and worthwhile is Christ, that whatever power to act for the good is in us comes from the power of his Resurrection.
I would suggest that any catechetical materials that fall short of this standard be rejected. In our writing and our teaching, we have an obligation to tell the whole truth about man, and to promote a healthy form of self-esteem centered in Jesus Christ.

Mr. W. Patrick Cunningham received his B.A. and M.A. in theology from St. Mary’s University in Texas. He also earned an M.A. in education from Stanford University. He has taught business ethics at Incarnate Word College and is now on the adjunct faculty of the University of Texas at San Antonio.
 

temperance

Electoral Member
Sep 27, 2006
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This is too hard to read ,I need some breaks in paragraph please and maybe larger text ,I really want to read it,:read2: but my eyes hurt --lol please help
 

Curiosity

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Jul 30, 2005
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I would like to interject something here....

All men are different in their physical desires......

I was not comparing a sexually active man who is married, has procreated and adores his wife and family and is faithful to his one love .... with lust....

Lust is another topic entirely and because a man is celibate - his opposite is not necessarily lustful at all.

The opposite would be a man who has taken on the responsibility of love and raising a family ...in other words living as nature intended men to live...

Some men depending upon their life circumstances can be sexually active and in love, and celibate when it is not possible .... such as those who spend long periods of time away from their families.... as in war.... not the only example but one which we are familiar with.
 

sanctus

The Padre
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I would like to interject something here....

All men are different in their physical desires......

I was not comparing a sexually active man who is married, has procreated and adores his wife and family and is faithful to his one love .... with lust....

Lust is another topic entirely and because a man is celibate - his opposite is not necessarily lustful at all.

The opposite would be a man who has taken on the responsibility of love and raising a family ...in other words living as nature intended men to live...

Some men depending upon their life circumstances can be sexually active and in love, and celibate when it is not possible .... such as those who spend long periods of time away from their families.... as in war.... not the only example but one which we are familiar with.

Lust not in the negative sense often applied to the word, but in the pure sense of what it actually means, the desire for sexual conduct.(in this situation)
 

sanctus

The Padre
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So, why did the New Testament saints look for His coming? Because, Pagan Rome persecuted Jesus, the Christians and the Jews. The Roman Emperors gave their power, seat and authority (Revelation 13:2) to the Bishop of Rome. Papal Rome murdered and tortured millions of Christians. One final time, the "Mother of harlots" (the apostate Catholic/Protestant religious system, as seen in Revelation 17), will persecute His remnant church.

It's, always, been about Rome.


What an unadulterated load of bull-poop.
 

Curiosity

Senate Member
Jul 30, 2005
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Morning Sanctus

I understand your connotation - I only wanted to explain what I felt that sexually active does not equate with "lust".... in my mind it equates with "love"....

Sexual desires and physical release of those desires is too often regarded as "lustful"...and I disagree because it is yet another way to demonstrate love for another....and when celibacy is being discussed, we always lower the boom on sexual activity.... making it seem wrong, dirty, a bad act and so on....

For some men sexuality and expression of it with a woman he loves is the best he can do..... the ultimate demonstration of his affection.... and I see that as beautiful and natural.....

Whatever Paul says is his opinion..... we can't all make it into biblical passages....lol.... but we do have forums!
 

Curiosity

Senate Member
Jul 30, 2005
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Oh dear the core of the feel good argument has been left out....

In the zeal to promote feel good is wrong, this writer has forgotten the tenets of self-improvement.

The goal may be "feeling good" but the important lesson is always why does it feel bad and how can I
correct it in order to "feel good"..... I disagree that sin is "glossed over" and "excused" because often in our hearts we are aware of being wrong or "sinning".... and failure doesn't always necessarily arise from "sin".

If we never felt the pull of disappointment or failure, we would never seek to improve ourselves....and I don't mean "approval from others" but "self approval".

This guy follows a pretty narrow path and many would have difficulty gaining "his appproval" for anything unless they were carbon copies of his way rather than unique individuals...
 

china

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Curiosity:
The opposite would be a man who has taken on the responsibility of love and raising a family ...in other words living as nature intended men to live..._________________

What nature are you referring to , Curiosity my dear Friend?
 

Curiosity

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Morning China

By nature I am referring to the act of procreation between a male and a female ....

Until recent times the only method of reproducing our species. Science has now made it possible to change reproduction to a somewhat solo act - but it seems loveless and lacks that beauty of a father and mother - so necessary to a sturdy and satisfied upbringing.

I believe fatherhood is as necessary to a child's healthy upbringing as is motherhood.
 

china

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Good late -evening Curiosity (Saturday ,17 th )

_________ in other words living as nature intended men to live____________________

In that case , nature intended some men to be homosexual , bi-sexual and perhaps for some men to be celibate .But that,s probably wrong ; I don't really know natures intentions; Besides liking the opposite sex(es) , I Have a hard time to figure out who I am.

Happy New Year , Curiosity.( Chinese)
 
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herald

Electoral Member
Jul 16, 2006
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Perhaps, you should read my posts, "Daniel & Revelation Reveal the Antichrist," and "Revelation 13:11 - Protestant America." If they are not archived on this site, you can read them on www.prophecytalk.com, or, www.his-servants.org, or, many others.
 

Curiosity

Senate Member
Jul 30, 2005
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Dear China

Of course you are correct - nature has created diversity regarding sexual preference in us.... but for the majority of people in our world as it is now - there are male and female who create replicas.....
This is how I am going to have to leave it..... majority rules..... if you figure it out (and yourself), I would be happy to revise my muddled thinking! lol

Meanwhile: Kung Hey Fat Choi. Happy New Year to the over 1 Billion people who probably aren't allowed to read this. And the best to those of you who can. ...including China who is fortunate
to be able to read and write on the forum!


Year of the DingHai - February 18, 2007 begins the Chinese New Year
 

joephantom

New Member
Feb 17, 2007
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It is was seperates us from animals, that we can control our impulses and do not need to be enslaved to them.