Canada on Wrong Side of Global Issues?

Colpy

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Nov 5, 2005
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Canada can't and shouldn't compete with China. We should punch a big hole in the Rockies and increase substantially infrastructure required to move raw material to the West Coast. We are missing an opportunity to decrease our economic dependence on the US and Europe. I think Canada should hitch its wagon to China, India and other Asian countries which are the fastest growing consumer markets.

Canada's trade relations should hold China to tighter standards than we currently hold the US (international abductions, torture, unprovoked wars to seize control of Iraq's oil resources, various other war crimes and crimes against humanity...) Israel (international abductions, counterfeit Canadian passports, ethnic cleansing, various war crimes, serious crimes against humanity...), Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Uganda, the Democratic Republic of Congo, Sierra Leone, Indonesia, The Phillipines...

All these nations have worse human rights problems than China. Both the US and Israel could get far more stern lectures about human rights than Harper gave China. Insulting the Chinese isn't in Canada's best interest and it makes you wonder which side Harper is really on.

EAO, that is simply digusting.

In 60 plus years, at most 150,000 Arabs and Israelis have died in the ME conflict. Meanwhile, China murdered at least 50 million, and perhaps as many as 70 million of her own people, and over 1 million Tibetans.

The six worst human rights abusers on earth are North Korea, the Sudan, Zimbabwe, China, Iran and Burma. China gets special mention because, along with being among the worst, it is the solid backer of the rest of the worst.

China should have been isolated economically and contained militarily.

The worst thing Nixon ever did, by far, was recognize China.

But.....there are no Jews there, are there????
 

Tonington

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 27, 2006
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Me thinks that you are challenging in such an obtuse fashion as it is an uncomfortable reality that is not supportive of your base position.


I think you're full of $hit. There's nothing to challenge, you just made something up and you can't give a substantive answer when pressed for one.
 

Walter

Hall of Fame Member
Jan 28, 2007
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James Laxer's comment that seemed most critical of the current government, pointing out that "Canada is on the wrong side in almost every international issue." He then listed these issues as climate change, recognizing aboriginal rights, and killing deep oceans and river systems with toxic waste and tailings ponds among others.
Considering the mess most other countries are in, Atwood, as usual, and Laxer are full of shyt.
 

Tonington

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Oct 27, 2006
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Considering the mess most other countries are in, Atwood, as usual, and Laxer are full of shyt.

Ahh, so to get out of the mess then we must ignore human rights, destroy rivers, pollute the oceans, and ceaselessly dump pollution into our atmosphere? The end justifies the means for folks like you ehh Walter?

Someone is full of shyt alright.
 

Walter

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Jan 28, 2007
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Ahh, so to get out of the mess then we must ignore human rights, destroy rivers, pollute the oceans, and ceaselessly dump pollution into our atmosphere? The end justifies the means for folks like you ehh Walter?

Someone is full of shyt alright.
The air and water around the Great Lakes are cleaner now than they were in the 60's. As for human rights, those in Canada that want them, got them. You are very wet behind the ears, get some life experience before you spout off and show your ingnorance.
 

taxslave

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 25, 2008
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And the right is inclined to conspiracy theories because they don't like the policies. Market mechanisms by the way used to be something that conservatives favoured over government regulation.

Your understanding of the policy alternatives is pretty shallow if you think carbon credits are the policy with the broadest support. And by the way, China is already spending more than any other nation building infrastructure to manufacture the energy infrastructure of the future. They don't require carbon credits either. It's an investment that will pay off. Conservatives can't seem to look that far into the future.

I already mentioned to you in another thread that Germany has been on track with their targets, and they haven't destroyed their economy. They are supporting the weakling economies in Europe as a matter of fact. Sweden has as well, they've reduced emissions 8% over 1990 levels while their economy has grown by almost 50%

Your parroting of fossil fuel propaganda is based on big lies.

You might want to talk to someone that lives in Germany about that.
 

Kreskin

Doctor of Thinkology
Feb 23, 2006
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How many books does Margaret Atwood have in circulation? Is she prepared to stop production of her books to save the environment, or is it business and thus exempt from environmental savior? I suspect she would refuse to halt all future book sales. Has it occurred to her that others might have a livelihood too?
 

taxslave

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 25, 2008
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Canada can't and shouldn't compete with China. We should punch a big hole in the Rockies and increase substantially infrastructure required to move raw material to the West Coast. We are missing an opportunity to decrease our economic dependence on the US and Europe. I think Canada should hitch its wagon to China, India and other Asian countries which are the fastest growing consumer markets.



Not much chance of that happening. We all know perfectly well that no federal government will do anything that might jeopardize jobs and votes in Ontario and Quebec. They even put the screws to a perfectly good mine proposal near Williams lake because the market not in central Canada or the US. I expect them to do the same with the pipeline proposal to Kitimat.
 

Cliffy

Standing Member
Nov 19, 2008
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Not much chance of that happening. We all know perfectly well that no federal government will do anything that might jeopardize jobs and votes in Ontario and Quebec. They even put the screws to a perfectly good mine proposal near Williams lake because the market not in central Canada or the US. I expect them to do the same with the pipeline proposal to Kitimat.

You don't really believe these projects were squashed because they weren't in Ontario or Quebec do you? The mine was squashed because nobody wanted to live with the environmental degradation and a pipeline through a protected and critical wildlife habitat is just plain stupid. There is far more to life than just jobs and money - like quality of life; ie. clean air and water. Money means nothing when you can't breath or drink the water.
 

Tonington

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Oct 27, 2006
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The air and water around the Great Lakes are cleaner now than they were in the 60's.

So? It was strong environmental regulations that changed that, and it appears we need them now again. But you say we should forget that. If people like you had been listened to in the 70's and 80's the Great Lakes would be far worse.

As for human rights, those in Canada that want them, got them.

That is ignorance in the extreme.


You are very wet behind the ears, get some life experience before you spout off and show your ingnorance.

I don't need very much life experience to know that if your ends justifying the means nonsense is followed, that things become far worse. You're not exactly a prime example for life experience meaning less ignorance.

You might want to talk to someone that lives in Germany about that.

My brother lives in Germany. My boss is from Germany. Germany is driving the growth in the 16 nation Euro area.

They are doing fine:
Google - public data
 

Tonington

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Oct 27, 2006
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And name calling is the best we can expect from someone who can't back up his baseless assertions?

Yup, and it wasn't for a lack of attempts. I gave him a few and he chose to throw spaghetti and dirt.
 

captain morgan

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Mar 28, 2009
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A Mouse Once Bit My Sister
And name calling is the best we can expect from someone who can't back up his baseless assertions?


Great comment coming from you Cliffy considering your ongoing and running insults directed at anyone that doesn't hold the same opinions as you on politics, environment or indian-related issues.

Yup, and it wasn't for a lack of attempts. I gave him a few and he chose to throw spaghetti and dirt.


You see only what you want, especially in light of the reality that you have committed yourself 100% on this issue... It's impossible for someone like you to redefine or reconsider your stance as it will result in your having to recognize your intellectual bankruptcy.

Your pride has gotten in the way of your capacity to understand what was suggested earlier.
 

Tonington

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 27, 2006
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You see only what you want,

I gave you multiple chances, and you didn't explain what policy is changing. Is it the policy on selecting authors for the IPCC? Is it the policy for the UNFCC conference proceedings? Is it specific climate policies that the UN promotes? Which policy are you talking about, and what is the change?

If you cannot answer these basic questions, then you don't have cause to say there is an apparent change in policy.

But you are now 100% committed to defending your assertion, even without evidence....so I doubt you'll admit that you're asserting things as true without cause.
 

captain morgan

Hall of Fame Member
Mar 28, 2009
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This is what I submitted in post # 12 in response to your line of questioning.

The focal point has changed from pushing their agenda and marketing their position as aggressively as previously observed.

It is an observation - you know, that thing in which you place so much stock... Here's another observation, you have done nothing to address that comment. People like you and Cliffy need to rely on moving the goal posts and picking/choosing your "realities" in order to maintain any sembelance of a position.
 

Tonington

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 27, 2006
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This is what I submitted in post # 12 in response to your line of questioning.

The focal point has changed from pushing their agenda and marketing their position as aggressively as previously observed.

Yes, and I asked you what they changed it to...

Anyways, they still have their mandate. That hasn't changed. Everything you've mentioned here is completely subjective. I mean this isn't even a policy that you've named...the focal point has changed? Not validated at all. I guess you expect us to take you at your word...
 

wulfie68

Council Member
Mar 29, 2009
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I snicker when I read that X celebrity condemns or approves of Y policy: These people aren't any better prepared to assess political and scientific change than most of the population they spring from... and in some cases worse equipped because they are removed from many of the realities that drive ordinary people and thus our societies. Attwood reveals her own ignorance in the political spectrum by stating we should have a doomsday clock-style meter to monitor things like pro-roguing parliament... when by her scale, we would have been a totalitarian dictatorship under previous PMs. She's entitled to her opinion and ignorance but anyone who gives it any more weight than any other partisan pundit should have their head examined.
 

Goober

Hall of Fame Member
Jan 23, 2009
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So? It was strong environmental regulations that changed that, and it appears we need them now again. But you say we should forget that. If people like you had been listened to in the 70's and 80's the Great Lakes would be far worse.


That is ignorance in the extreme.



I don't need very much life experience to know that if your ends justifying the means nonsense is followed, that things become far worse. You're not exactly a prime example for life experience meaning less ignorance.



My brother lives in Germany. My boss is from Germany. Germany is driving the growth in the 16 nation Euro area.

They are doing fine:
Google - public data

And many of the changes in the great lakes can be directly attributed to Regan and Mulrooney. Along with Mulrooney being a main player in the Anti Apartheid State of SA - Pushing for stronger and stronger sanctions.
 

Tonington

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Oct 27, 2006
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And many of the changes in the great lakes can be directly attributed to Regan and Mulrooney. Along with Mulrooney being a main player in the Anti Apartheid State of SA - Pushing for stronger and stronger sanctions.

The negotiations actually started under Trudeau and Carter. Reagan was actually reluctant, and thought that the regulations would be burdensome on the US economy, but Mulroney pressed hard.

Yes, the history books have taught me that once upon a time, conservative folk actually cared about conserving things, such as a way of life, and a healthy environment.

These days it seems like they're more concerned with reducing all forms of regulation... and if the recent US elections are any indicator, they are an anti-science ideology now.

In fact there was a great op-ed by a Republican this weekend in the Washington Post, Sherwood Boehlert, which I will post:
Can the party of Reagan accept the science of climate change?

Watching the raft of newly elected GOP lawmakers converge on Washington, I couldn't help thinking about an issue I hope our party will better address. I call on my fellow Republicans to open their minds to rethinking what has largely become our party's line: denying that climate change and global warming are occurring and that they are largely due to human activities.

National Journal reported last month that 19 of the 20 serious GOP Senate challengers declared that the science of climate change is either inconclusive or flat-out wrong. Many newly elected Republican House members take that position. It is a stance that defies the findings of our country's National Academy of Sciences, national scientific academies from around the world and 97 percent of the world's climate scientists.

Why do so many Republican senators and representatives think they are right and the world's top scientific academies and scientists are wrong? I would like to be able to chalk it up to lack of information or misinformation.

I can understand arguments over proposed policy approaches to climate change. I served in Congress for 24 years. I know these are legitimate areas for debate. What I find incomprehensible is the dogged determination by some to discredit distinguished scientists and their findings.

In a trio of reports released in May, the prestigious and nonpartisan National Academy concluded that "a strong, credible body of scientific evidence shows that climate change is occurring, is caused largely by human activities and poses significant risks for a broad range of human and natural systems." Our nation's most authoritative and respected scientific body couldn't make it any clearer or more conclusive.

When I was chairman of the House Committee on Science, top scientists from around the world came before our panel. They were experts that Republicans and Democrats alike looked to for scientific insight and understanding on a host of issues. They spoke in probabilities, ranges and concepts - always careful to characterize what was certain, what was suspected and what was speculative. Today, climate scientists - careful as ever in portraying what they know vs. what they suspect - report that the body of scientific evidence supporting the consensus on climate change and its cause is as comprehensive and exhaustive as anything produced by the scientific community.

While many in politics - and not just of my party - refuse to accept the overwhelming scientific evidence of climate change, leaders of some of our nation's most prominent businesses have taken a different approach. They formed the U.S. Climate Action Partnership. This was no collection of mom-and-pop shops operated by "tree huggers" sympathetic to any environmental cause but, rather, a step by hard-nosed, profit-driven capitalists. General Electric, Alcoa, Duke Energy, DuPont, Dow Chemical, Ford, General Motors and Chrysler signed on. USCAP, persuaded by scientific facts, called on the president and Congress to act, saying "in our view, the climate change challenge will create more economic opportunities than risks for the U.S. economy."

There is a natural aversion to more government regulation. But that should be included in the debate about how to respond to climate change, not as an excuse to deny the problem's existence. The current practice of disparaging the science and the scientists only clouds our understanding and delays a solution. The record flooding, droughts and extreme weather in this country and others are consistent with patterns that scientists predicted for years. They are an ominous harbinger.

The new Congress should have a policy debate to address facts rather than a debate featuring unsubstantiated attacks on science. We shouldn't stand by while the reputations of scientists are dragged through the mud in order to win a political argument. And no member of any party should look the other way when the basic operating parameters of scientific inquiry - the need to question, express doubt, replicate research and encourage curiosity - are exploited for the sake of political expediency. My fellow Republicans should understand that wholesale, ideologically based or special-interest-driven rejection of science is bad policy. And that in the long run, it's also bad politics.

What is happening to the party of Ronald Reagan? He embraced scientific understanding of the environment and pollution and was proud of his role in helping to phase out ozone-depleting chemicals. That was smart policy and smart politics. Most important, unlike many who profess to be his followers, Reagan didn't deny the existence of global environmental problems but instead found ways to address them.

The National Academy reports concluded that "scientific evidence that the Earth is warming is now overwhelming." Party affiliation does not change that fact.

The writer, a Republican, represented New York's 24th District in Congress from 1983 to 2007. He is a special adviser to the Project on Climate Science.
Indeed, it was Reagan's administration who in the end favoured a market based solution over regulation, and implemented the cap and trade program to bring down emissions causing acid rain.