Canada: No longer a Democracy

[Praxius]

Well, IF Harper gets his wish, he will be able to very democratically suspend parliamentary process (democracy, if you will)

So WHO is the threat to democracy?? Harper doesn't even want the government to do ANYTHING for a few months in the hopes that he can do WHAT exactly?

Delay of Democracy is No Democracy.

He wants to delay it even more then it already has..... why? It's clearly not for the best interest of Canadians or the Economy, it's just to save his own ass and power for a little bit longer so he can spew out more and more propaganda to to save his own ass and power.

If he really believed in democracy (Our Democracy) then he wouldn't be trying to villianize the other parties in what they are doing with lies and exaggerations and he wouldn't be trying to scare the populace into thinking they need to have another say in the matter or else the whole country will be destroyed.

He's throwing out the seperatists fearmongering and attempting to divide the nation for his own political agendas, certainly not for the good of the country.

If he still wanted his party to remain in power and he wanted to keep the country united, he'd resign as Prime Minister and allow someone else from the party to lead..... maybe then the other parties would back down from their Coalition plans.

But he won't do that because he thinks he's king and will pull the same kind of stunts Bush did...... he's doing it already, but rather then scaring people with Saddam or Osama, he's trying to instill fear from the other parties as if he's the only one who knows what our country needs and will be our savior.

Savior of what? Himself?

 

[Lester]

It's clear that the divisions we've had as a Country , are begining to look like major fault lines. East/West/Quebec relations will be at their worst. What I'm experiencing in Alberta is outrage over this. As for the BLOK they have no respect for Canada, they have said that this situation serves them and they will continue in the arrangement as long as it continues to serve them, THEM

 

[Spade]

The real threat to Canadian democracy!
Click

 

[Praxius]

Funny vid Spade, lol.... seems the approach of the Conservatives.

 

[TenPenny]

It's clear that the divisions we've had as a Country , are begining to look like major fault lines. East/West/Quebec relations will be at their worst. What I'm experiencing in Alberta is outrage over this. As for the BLOK they have no respect for Canada, they have said that this situation serves them and they will continue in the arrangement as long as it continues to serve them, THEM

The more I read, the more I come to the conclusion that the only realistic solution is to let the confidence vote go ahead. If the Conservatives lose, then call an election.

I think anything else will be seen as illegitimate by 30 to 40 % of the country, and that's way too much to risk.

 

[scratch]

TenPenny,

I have an opinion and you have an opinion.

leave it there please.

regards
scratch

 

[Mongul]

All canadian politicians are slimy fudgers, None of them have any spine or integrety, and the ones that do have a piss-poor economic policy. I'm looking at you NDP.

I was not surprised when canada voted in a conservative minority, Harper may be a damn Robot but at least hes sensible and intelligble. The liberals basically struck a deal with everyone they could just so they could have a shot at power. Canadians expected a minority government with a strong conservative presence, what they got was a coalition which effectively shuts out any Conservative platforms. Representative democratic republics are funny like that.

We should stop voting for rats and start promoting candidates that we want, third party or not.

 

[Praxius]

The more I read, the more I come to the conclusion that the only realistic solution is to let the confidence vote go ahead. If the Conservatives lose, then call an election.

I think anything else will be seen as illegitimate by 30 to 40 % of the country, and that's way too much to risk.

Oh so now the 30-40% of the country get's to decide what happens because they think it's a risk?

We all had our fair chance to have our say in the last election, and this is what came from those decisions and voices.

Honestly, what is expected to occur with another election anyways?

Another Minority?

A Conservative Majority?

A Majority of another Party?

A Vote in for the Coalition?

What if that Coalition and the Conservatives end up neck and neck again and a minority is still created?

Then we're right back to where we are right now..... only you can add on top of that more wasted time and more wasted money when real work could be finally done in just a few days.

In the last few elections, Canadians have voted for minority governments and no matter what has been said or what has been done, it has remained the same. And at the same time, less and less people are going out to vote because of how much of a joke this whole situation has become.

There was apparently a lot of talk and people wanting their voices to be heard in the last election.... yet the turnout was dismal and ended up with the same minority government.

This current process is not working and this continuous cycle needs to stop.... and this coalition is the method to make it stop.... for at least a short period of time. In that time lots of issues can be addressed and action taken for the more important things in all of our lives.

A lot of people seem to be in an uproar about something that hasn't even happened yet and don't seem to know all the details on what may or may not happen. Harper had his chances in the last few years and did nothing.... and yet, many people are not even willing to give this new coalition a chance to see if it can work.

Hell, if it doesn't work, it doesn't work, and we're back to the polls regardless. This is the only option available for the government we all elected to actually function..... putting us into another election will not just be a waste of more time, more money and end up with the exact same results..... but would make the last election a complete and utter waste of time and money as well.

Enough is enough.... bring on the Coalition and see what they can do. Harper's out of chances in my books (And I used to be neutral on the guy)

 

[Zzarchov]

That is assuming that the NDP, Lib and Bloq triumvirate seizes control of the Federal Government of Canada.

Whether or not the GG Michelle Jean will approve it has been discussed on other threads.
I believe she will.
And at a stroke Canada will cease to be a Democracy by definition.
It will be legal and it will be constitutionally permitted but make no mistake we will cease to be a Democracy.

The definition of a Democracy is as follows.
Quote: online dictionary
“Democracy is a form of government in which power is held by people under a free electoral system.”
Quote: Webster’s
“1 a: government by the people ; especially : rule of the majority b: a government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised by them directly or indirectly through a system of representation usually involving periodically held free elections”


The coalition which will take over Canada's Government is non-elected in a leadership capacity.
They are of course elected politician's but that is not the issue.

Actually, Dion was elected in a Leadership Capacity.

He stated he intented to run for PM, and he won his election. No different than Harper.

Unlike Harper, he is elligible to be Prime Minister because he has the support of Parliment and the Majority of Canadian people through them.

Harper's stint as prime minister was undemocratic and he refused to adhere to his mandate, to rule as part of a coalition to gain control of Parliment.

He was not elected in a leadership Capacity because his leaderhip garnered him neither a majority of the votes, nor the party under his leadership a majority of Parliment.

He compounded this by refusing to form a coalition to govern. He spat in the face of democracy and democracy was restored.


There is no way under any system in which he had legitimate right to run the country. His party did not win the election, they did not breach the 50% mark required.

All he is, is another MP representing his riding. To be a prime minister he needs support of Parliment and that is taught to all Canadian citizens in grade school.

If he wanted electoral reform he should lobby for it, of course switching to a system when you elect parties and no MP's would have hurt him more.

He'd have even fewer seats and need an even larger coalition.

 

[Praxius]

All canadian politicians are slimy fudgers, None of them have any spine or integrety, and the ones that do have a piss-poor economic policy. I'm looking at you NDP.

Yeah? And you have a better idea on what to do?

I thought not.

Do the Conservatives?

Nope.... Pretty nice and fancy to point your finger at others trying to solve the problem and act like your sh*t don't stink.

I was not surprised when canada voted in a conservative minority, Harper may be a damn Robot but at least hes sensible and intelligble.

I disagree. The only thing he did during the election was say everything is just super.... trust them.... and did nothing else except attack the other parties and make them sound like villians..... all the while never explaining their own plans and objectives.

And here we are back into it all, and they still don't have a plan, other then to keep stirring crap up and causing more and more division. The only difference this time is that the only division created was between the Conservatives and every other party in the government.

Smooth Move Ex-Lax.

The liberals basically struck a deal with everyone they could just so they could have a shot at power.

Last I heard, it was the NDP who brought it all up in the first place. And I don't really care who is in power, so long as whoever is in power does their damn job and earn their pay cheque. If that means the Conservatives get dumped and the other parties form up into one collective, the get er done.

Canadians expected a minority government with a strong conservative presence, what they got was a coalition which effectively shuts out any Conservative platforms. Representative democratic republics are funny like that.

Once again, as I said in the past to someone else..... You don't speak for me, you speak for yourself.... don't sit there and tell me what Canadians expected because you don't represent me and I sure as hell didn't vote for you to do so.

I never wanted a "Strong Conservative Presence" in the first place, which is why I didn't vote for them.

And this coalition will shut out any Conservative Platforms?

Well I guess they should have thought about that before they attempted to financially shut out the other parties..... Eye for an Eye.... they can suffer for all I care. They created this mess, now they can suck it up.

We should stop voting for rats and start promoting candidates that we want, third party or not.

Which I have already been doing.... and those I have voted in have decided to create a Coalition.... sounds good to me.

 

[Praxius]

Actually, Dion was elected in a Leadership Capacity.

He stated he intented to run for PM, and he won his election. No different than Harper.

Unlike Harper, he is elligible to be Prime Minister because he has the support of Parliment and the Majority of Canadian people through them.

Harper's stint as prime minister was undemocratic and he refused to adhere to his mandate, to rule as part of a coalition to gain control of Parliment.

He was not elected in a leadership Capacity because his leaderhip garnered him neither a majority of the votes, nor the party under his leadership a majority of Parliment.

He compounded this by refusing to form a coalition to govern. He spat in the face of democracy and democracy was restored.


There is no way under any system in which he had legitimate right to run the country. His party did not win the election, they did not breach the 50% mark required.

All he is, is another MP representing his riding. To be a prime minister he needs support of Parliment and that is taught to all Canadian citizens in grade school.

If he wanted electoral reform he should lobby for it, of course switching to a system when you elect parties and no MP's would have hurt him more.

He'd have even fewer seats and need an even larger coalition.

I was going to Rep you for this, but won't let me.... good post.

It's interesting to see those who supported the Conservatives lap up, love every sneaky little trick they could get away with and laugh it up that that's how it goes.

Now the actual rules are being applied and the government is finally taking action with all the tools at their disposal, and now that the Conservatives put themselves in a situation where they can be toasted into oblivion, they and everyone who supported them cry foul and freak out that it's unfair, when it is clearly fair because our democracy was designed this way.

I ain't got a lick of sympathy. Suffer.

 

[Mongul]

Yeah? And you have a better idea on what to do?

I thought not.

Yeah i do, But it involves Laissaz-Faire economics

Do the Conservatives?

Nope.... Pretty nice and fancy to point your finger at others trying to solve the problem and act like your sh*t don't stink.

I believe that the canadian economy is not at the same degree of stagnation as the US, therefore the idea of a "stimulus package" is premature, and quite frankly the very idea of an auto bailout disturbs me, we're basically subsidizing an industry with a shrinking market,and a failing buisness practise under the pretense of saving jobs. If these workers were skilled, they could easily utilize their experience from working for these auto-makers and use these skills to work another job. Or be a plumber, i hear they make quite a bit of money.

I disagree. The only thing he did during the election was say everything is just super.... trust them.... and did nothing else except attack the other parties and make them sound like villians..... all the while never explaining their own plans and o[bjectives.

And here we are back into it all, and they still don't have a plan, other then to keep stirring crap up and causing more and more division. The only difference this time is that the only division created was between the Conservatives and every other party in the government.

then this is where we differ, i agree with his policy of non-intervention, as it is far too premature to be thinking of a stimulus package. However, I wouldn'tbe surprised if he did an about face just to cling to power

Last I heard, it was the NDP who brought it all up in the first place. And I don't really care who is in power, so long as whoever is in power does their damn job and earn their pay cheque. If that means the Conservatives get dumped and the other parties form up into one collective, the get er done.

I can't blame the NDP for doing it though, this is the first taste of federal power they've had ever.

Once again, as I said in the past to someone else..... You don't speak for me, you speak for yourself.... don't sit there and tell me what Canadians expected because you don't represent me and I sure as hell didn't vote for you to do so.

I never wanted a "Strong Conservative Presence" in the first place, which is why I didn't vote for them.

I didn't say i spoke for you, i'm pointing out the fact that he was elected with a minority government, and thats what canadians expected to recieve. I didn't say "CANADA WANTS A CONSERVATIVE MINORITY", because i don't think most canadians even have that much faith in their government.

And this coalition will shut out any Conservative Platforms?

Well I guess they should have thought about that before they attempted to financially shut out the other parties..... Eye for an Eye.... they can suffer for all I care. They created this mess, now they can suck it up.



Which I have already been doing.... and those I have voted in have decided to create a Coalition.... sounds good to me.

Maybe liberals should garner some more donations from their supporters/buisness leaders? Obama had no problem raising millions, you don't have to be conservative to bring in alot of donations, you just have to be a party that matters.

Even if harper removed that policy, do you think they'd stop the coalition just because of that?

 

[Mongul]

I was going to Rep you for this, but won't let me.... good post.

It's interesting to see those who supported the Conservatives lap up, love every sneaky little trick they could get away with and laugh it up that that's how it goes.

Now the actual rules are being applied and the government is finally taking action with all the tools at their disposal, and now that the Conservatives put themselves in a situation where they can be toasted into oblivion, they and everyone who supported them cry foul and freak out that it's unfair, when it is clearly fair because our democracy was designed this way.

I ain't got a lick of sympathy. Suffer.

you're gonna suffer with me bud, so easy on the hate

 

[Mongul]

i just find it ironic that Dion is about to be PM even though right after the election many liberals were already writing him off and some even nominated themselves for leader

 

[Ron in Regina]

I, personally, don't like anything that's going on in Ottawa now, or even recently. I do have to
say though, that it's all very interesting, and a welcome break for many of us on Canadian Content
Forums (religion Threads to the back-burner for a while).

Harper is done. The Conservatives can drop someone else in his place in an effort to stay alive this
term for a while, but Harper is done. Politics in General is a stinky thing at the best of times and more
odiferous than usual in the last couple of years for Canada. Harpers parting gift if he was really the
vindictive pr*ck that so many claim that he is would be to fill ALL the open Senate positions before
Monday. So sorry to Elizabeth May and the six Bloc members about Dions promise. This hasn't
happened, or Harper hasn't thought of it depending on which side of the fence you sit on.

Regardless what happens on the Hill and with the GG, it'll be interesting and change will come out of
it. When the system is broken, any change (good or bad) is still change and is at least an attempt at
doing something.

Harper didn't have the Majority he acted like he had. He scr*wed up. Dion claimed he'd never form a
coalition with the NDP as their economic plans would be a disaster for Canada. He scr*wed up. Layton
made is very clear that if Dion wasn't qualified to even lead the opposition, then he surely wasn't qualified
to be the PM of Canada. He scr*wed up. Duceppe....well Christmas came early and big for him this year.
Elizabeth May, all bubbly about her Liberal appointment to the Senate I don't see doing any favors to the
credibility of the freshly minted Green Party. That'll kill it. She scr*wed up.

I have no Independent to vote for in my neck of the woods, and would have Voted GREEN if another
election would have come up in the next couple of months as the default vote to avoid the stench coming
out Ottawa at this time. I personally believe (right or wrong) that if I don't vote, I forfeit my right to complain
and I'm not willing to sacrifice that. I'm going to sit back and enjoy the ride.

 

[Praxius]

Yeah i do, But it involves Laissaz-Faire economics

And my plan involves the complete removal of Capitalism, but everybody has their own ideas.... whether they will ever make it to the table remains to be seen.

Until you or I get to that table, it's in the hands of the parties we all elected.

I believe that the canadian economy is not at the same degree of stagnation as the US, therefore the idea of a "stimulus package" is premature, and quite frankly the very idea of an auto bailout disturbs me, we're basically subsidizing an industry with a shrinking market,and a failing buisness practise under the pretense of saving jobs.

The Auto Industry is suffering because people didn't want to buy gas guzzlers..... the message has been clear and straight to the point, these companies require drastic revamps in their production and design in order to get any of the money.

People are always going to need vehicles in todays society, therefore those companies and factories will be required to make those vehicles and parts our society needs.... .and people need those jobs to get paid and to live a decent life.

And this bailout isn't just for the auto sector, but the lumber, infrastructure and many other parts of our country that are very important to keeping us competitive with other nations.

Doing something now to help things out is a lot smarter then waiting until the last minute to do something when it is usually too late..... if it doesn't need it, it's still not going to hurt and will only improve our position.

If these workers were skilled, they could easily utilize their experience from working for these auto-makers and use these skills to work another job. Or be a plumber, i hear they make quite a bit of money.

Oh yeah, there's a wonderful solution.... hey, you worked 35 years building cars and you're out of a job? Here's a plunger, start fixing people's toilets..... yeah, what a wonderful use of their experience and education. :roll:

no matter what industry you work in, if it goes tits up, you are going to need to get back into university or college to upgrade or improve your education and experience for a new field of work..... that cost money.... money people don't have when they're not working.

then this is where we differ, i agree with his policy of non-intervention, as it is far too premature to be thinking of a stimulus package. However, I wouldn'tbe surprised if he did an about face just to cling to power

which he will of course attempt to do because of his addition to power and he's facing a losing battle. But he will continue these tactics for as long as he can get away with them.... he has already proven this since he became PM. The Coalition should take him out of power and be done with it, rather then hoping Harper will actually do his job. Like I said, he had his chance and he's blown it continuously.

I can't blame the NDP for doing it though, this is the first taste of federal power they've had ever.

And who knows, we all might be suprised at just how well the do the job.

I didn't say i spoke for you, i'm pointing out the fact that he was elected with a minority government, and thats what canadians expected to recieve. I didn't say "CANADA WANTS A CONSERVATIVE MINORITY", because i don't think most canadians even have that much faith in their government.

Yes, a minority government might be something everyone "expected" but that is no guarantee, nor is it written in law that the citizens of Canada will get this everytime an election is made. You vote for your local representatives, those representatives vote for their leaders, and they all make the decisions. Our decisions stop at who we vote for in our local ridings.... we do not have a say in how they work together.

Maybe liberals should garner some more donations from their supporters/buisness leaders? Obama had no problem raising millions, you don't have to be conservative to bring in alot of donations, you just have to be a party that matters.

And none of this would be easy or possible if the Conservatives get their budget passed this monday.

Even if harper removed that policy, do you think they'd stop the coalition just because of that?

I wouldn't.

 

[scratch]

Well put Ron.

regards,
scratch

 

[Praxius]

you're gonna suffer with me bud, so easy on the hate

I'll hate whoever I want, get used to it. You don't tell me who I can Like or Hate and the reasons why, just as I will not tell you who you can hate or like.

You can hate me for all I care, which is very little..... but don't even attempt to threaten me with "Suffering" because I won't be dealing with your games or what you like based on threat.

People have differences and varrying opinions.... get used to it. My comment you quoted wasn't directed to you in paticular, but if what I said applies or references your beliefs in some way, suck it up..... it's an opinion.

It's pretty pathetic when people can't handle someone's views or opinions and ends up resorting to threats.... really pathetic.

And I'll take your comment as a direct threat, whether you mean it as physical suffering or some other form of suffering online... I will not put up with it and I will deal with you accordingly..... and that's not a threat, that's a promise on how it's going to be.

I said the Conservatives and those who support them can suffer for all I care (Which means loose their power due to their own corruption) and I damn well will stand by those words.

 

[Mongul]

And my plan involves the complete removal of Capitalism, but everybody has their own ideas.... whether they will ever make it to the table remains to be seen.

Until you or I get to that table, it's in the hands of the parties we all elected.

so we revert back to the barter system and change the year number to zero? :lol:

The Auto Industry is suffering because people didn't want to buy gas guzzlers..... the message has been clear and straight to the point, these companies require drastic revamps in their production and design in order to get any of the money.

People are always going to need vehicles in todays society, therefore those companies and factories will be required to make those vehicles and parts our society needs.... .and people need those jobs to get paid and to live a decent life.

Oh yes i agree with this assessment, people don't want gas guzzlers and the BIG 3 are far too slow to respond. Why has foreign car companies like toyota, honda, BMW, etc been so successful and the Big 3 such a failure? Maybe its because these companies are resistant to change and progress, are unadaptable, or just have poor buisness practises? Is there some adversion to allowing Foreign competitors to set up shop here?

And this bailout isn't just for the auto sector, but the lumber, infrastructure and many other parts of our country that are very important to keeping us competitive with other nations.

Doing something now to help things out is a lot smarter then waiting until the last minute to do something when it is usually too late..... if it doesn't need it, it's still not going to hurt and will only improve our position.

According to NAFTA, all signitories are not allowed to subsidize commodity based industries such as lumber, it is a violation of our free trade treaty. Canada's lumber industries are hit because of lax demand in the world market, its only appropriate that the industry shaves off jobs in order to ensure profitability.

Oh yeah, there's a wonderful solution.... hey, you worked 35 years building cars and you're out of a job? Here's a plunger, start fixing people's toilets..... yeah, what a wonderful use of their experience and education. :roll:

no matter what industry you work in, if it goes tits up, you are going to need to get back into university or college to upgrade or improve your education and experience for a new field of work..... that cost money.... money people don't have when they're not working.

Well it depends also on your qualifications. If the big 3 loses market share, their competitors would gain that market share and would need to ramp up production, which means hiring more workers

the plumbing thing is a joke, though there is a profitable buisness in pipe construction

which he will of course attempt to do because of his addition to power and he's facing a losing battle. But he will continue these tactics for as long as he can get away with them.... he has already proven this since he became PM. The Coalition should take him out of power and be done with it, rather then hoping Harper will actually do his job. Like I said, he had his chance and he's blown it continuously.

i can see what you're saying, but i don't like the idea of the liberals buddying up with separatists and the NDP. A Conservo-Liberal coalition would be perferable for me but i realize that both the liberals and conservatives are Incompetent.

And who knows, we all might be suprised at just how well the do the job.

i just hope they don't plunge our country into a recession

Yes, a minority government might be something everyone "expected" but that is no guarantee, nor is it written in law that the citizens of Canada will get this everytime an election is made. You vote for your local representatives, those representatives vote for their leaders, and they all make the decisions. Our decisions stop at who we vote for in our local ridings.... we do not have a say in how they work together.

How is canada a democracy if regular citizens don't have a say? We should stop spreading our own lies.

And none of this would be easy or possible if the Conservatives get their budget passed this monday.

nothing is ever easy, liberals need to relearn how to work for votes

I wouldn't.

i would?

 

[Mongul]

I'll hate whoever I want, get used to it. You don't tell me who I can Like or Hate and the reasons why, just as I will not tell you who you can hate or like.

You can hate me for all I care, which is very little..... but don't even attempt to threaten me with "Suffering" because I won't be dealing with your games or what you like based on threat.

People have differences and varrying opinions.... get used to it. My comment you quoted wasn't directed to you in paticular, but if what I said applies or references your beliefs in some way, suck it up..... it's an opinion.

It's pretty pathetic when people can't handle someone's views or opinions and ends up resorting to threats.... really pathetic.

And I'll take your comment as a direct threat, whether you mean it as physical suffering or some other form of suffering online... I will not put up with it and I will deal with you accordingly..... and that's not a threat, that's a promise on how it's going to be.

I said the Conservatives and those who support them can suffer for all I care (Which means loose their power due to their own corruption) and I damn well will stand by those words.

someones stringy today.

i took the previous comment as "conservatives suffer under the coalition" and i responded that both you and i will be governed by this coalition and any stuff they mess up on we will all suffer the consequences.

honestly do you treat all newcomers with such hostility? Especially ones that strike up a debate with you?