Beat this besti4lity thread if you can...

karrie

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Jan 6, 2007
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I've seen two dog attacks first hand.

The first was my sister attacked by a german shepard. We were at our neighbor's house, like any other day. Walking across their deck, like any other day. Past their family pet like any other day. He was a well trained guard dog (yes, well trained). He was about 10 years old and had never bitten. Nothing was unusual. Nothing was out of place. Five adults were around, including his owners and he just suddenly lunged as my sister was WALKING (not running, screaming, flapping, taunting, grabbing food or anything of the sort) across the deck. He caught her by the buttock, and wouldn't let go until a shovel caught him full on upside the head. It happened so fast not one of the five adults standing there could have stopped the initial attack, and there was no reason for it. No history, no indication. We were farm kids. We'd dealt with dogs all our lives and know how to behave around them.

The second attack I saw was very similar. The kid hadn't done anything wrong that anyone could see, he wasn't even playing with the dog.

While I get what people say about negligent parents and provcative behavior, it is NOT the whole story with dog attacks. Simply being a good trainer and being on hand doesn't ensure your dog will never hurt someone for reasons that you'll never understand.
 

tracy

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Nov 10, 2005
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Those dogs may have just been unsound. I think that happens. I just don't think that's what happens most of the time. When you hear a story of dog attacks, it's usually a toddler involved with a big dog. That alone implies poor management on the parents part to me.

Off topic, but I don't trust trained guard dogs ever. As soon as someone says those words, that's a dog I avoid (and I love dogs). IME they are the scariest dogs.
 
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Zzarchov

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Aug 28, 2006
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No dog breed is the same as a jaguar. It's a silly argument.

Why stop at dog though?

Your whole point is that it doesn't matter how dangerous the animal is, the problem is training. And people who don't properly train one dangerous animal will just get another dangerous one and improperly train it.

So why not allow jaguars. They can be properly trained, and anyone who would get one and improperly train it would just do the same thing with a pit bull or a rott or any number of other dangerous animals.

Im pointing out the insane argument that banning dangerous breeds solves nothing. If that were the case, then don't ban any dangerous animals.
 

Just the Facts

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Oct 15, 2004
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Nope. He's 16lbs of clawed killing machine. But, he and the dog grew up together, and have wrestled since they were a kitten and a puppy (I don't think they know they're not littermates). He never takes his claws out with a member of the family.

Excellent! :smile:
 

tracy

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Why stop at dog though?

Your whole point is that it doesn't matter how dangerous the animal is, the problem is training. And people who don't properly train one dangerous animal will just get another dangerous one and improperly train it.

So why not allow jaguars. They can be properly trained, and anyone who would get one and improperly train it would just do the same thing with a pit bull or a rott or any number of other dangerous animals.

Im pointing out the insane argument that banning dangerous breeds solves nothing. If that were the case, then don't ban any dangerous animals.

My point isn't that it doesn't matter how dangerous the animal is. My point is that pitbulls are not more dangerous than any other similarly sized dog. If you're going to advocate banning pitbulls, I don't see why you would allow Rottweilers, Sheperds, Mastiffs, Bullmastiffs, Presa Canarios, Dobermans, Labs, Chows, Huskies, Malamutes, St Bernard's, Great Danes, Akitas, etc.

Jaguars, a different species from dogs, are wild animals. That's why they can be banned. If they are domesticated and their breeding is controlled over the next 10 000 years or so, they may become pets like dogs have. Until then, they are irrelevant to the discussion. There is no reason you can't ban people from owning a certain species. A breed ban is another matter. In that case, we are talking about different breeds in the same species and there is no evidence that banning one breed results in safety from dog attacks. All it does is change which breed becomes the next media-hyped monster.


http://www.healthypet.com/library_view.aspx?ID=16&sid=1
A study performed by the American Veterinary Medical Association, the CDC, and the Humane Society of the United States, analyzed dog bite statistics from the last 20 years and found that the statistics don't show that any breeds are inherently more dangerous than others. The study showed that the most popular large breed dogs at any one time were consistently on the list of breeds that bit fatally. There were a high number of fatal bites from Doberman pinschers in the 1970s, for example, because Dobermans were very popular at that time and there were more Dobermans around, and because Dobermans'size makes their bites more dangerous. The number of fatal bites from pit bulls rose in the 1980s for the same reason, and the number of bites from rottweilers in the 1990s. The study also noted that there are no reliable statistics for nonfatal dog bites, so there is no way to know how often smaller breeds are biting.
 

Zzarchov

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ok, 1.) Species is an argument of classification, not anything to do with reality.

Its a paper term. In theory ,when the term was created, animals from different species couldn't interbreed. Research has found out you can get into different families and their can be interbreeding.

Which brings us to reality. In reality you can ban a type of Dog as easily as you can ban a type of mammal (ie Jaguars).

If the breed of an animal mattered not, consider this: A mountain lion is technically a small cat, closely related to the average tabby cat. Its not a large breed cat, its a large small breed cat.

Quite frankly, banning a breed is easy to do and completely normal.


Let me put it this way. Why NOT ban the breed? If all breeds of dog are equal, what need have you for a pit bull? Get another large breed dog instead.

But Pit bulls are not like other dogs, I have been attacked by 2 of them. Both loving family pets who went to obedience school. They just decided they didn't like me.

Now no big deal for any other dog, ya a dog mauling sucks, but you can pry a German Shep. or a Lab off you. And if you can't, a couple of bystanders easily can.

You can't with a pit bull, its stronger than a trio of adults, and impervious to punching or kicking when they have a hold of your arm. It took a few blows from a fire extinguisher to the head the get the thing to let go long enough to try and pin it.


Training or no, its dangerous.


If you think "Domestication' is a magic catch all, what about Elephants? They HAVE been domesticated for a long time.

Would you let just anyone own an Asian elephant? They are even more docile than dogs by a large margin, but its not about how docile they normally are. Its about how dangerous they are when they do decide to freak out, or you get one that just plain ole has a mental disorder.


You know whats less dangerous than even a well trained pit bull? A gun. Its inert and just sits there. We do ban you from running around with an unlicensed gun.

If you don't think you can ban a breed of dogs, reality disagrees. Its been done.
 

talloola

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 14, 2006
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1.) Dogs will hump legs and couch cushions. They hump anything (one reason I prefer bitches)

I had a chocolate labrador 'bitch', which I could not leave any blankets or small pillows near, as she
would do the same. That's the nature of many dogs and bitches, as bitches will mount each other
when one is smelling of estrus, (heat).
I've seen it many times in kennels ,or just a group of bitches in a house running around together.
It is normal.
 

tracy

House Member
Nov 10, 2005
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ok, 1.) Species is an argument of classification, not anything to do with reality.

Its a paper term. In theory ,when the term was created, animals from different species couldn't interbreed. Research has found out you can get into different families and their can be interbreeding.

So a fish is the same thing as a bird or a monkey? Species is a real concept and has a lot to do with reality.

Which brings us to reality. In reality you can ban a type of Dog as easily as you can ban a type of mammal (ie Jaguars).

You can make the law, but it doesn't create the desired effect. If all you want is to not see pitbulls in the streets tomorrow, you can accomplish that. It wouldn't be easy since that actually isn't a breed so you have the problem of trying to determine if a dog is a pitbull or a mix or a boxer or a mastiff or a mix of those.... But even if you eliminated all pitbulls tomorrow, that isn't going to stop dog bites. You'd have to keep on going to the natural next step: get the German Shepherds! Then the next step after that would probably be Rotties... then Presas... then Dobies... then Chows... then Akitas.... then Great Danes... Then St Bernards... then Huskies.... eventually ending with Yorkies and Pomeranians (all of these dogs have been involved in fatal attacks in the US).


If the breed of an animal mattered not, consider this: A mountain lion is technically a small cat, closely related to the average tabby cat. Its not a large breed cat, its a large small breed cat.

A mountain lion is not a tabby. Species matters.


Let me put it this way. Why NOT ban the breed? If all breeds of dog are equal, what need have you for a pit bull? Get another large breed dog instead.

All large breeds are equal in their ability to cause harm. That doesn't make them equal in their suitability as pets for different people. If you don't get that concept, then I'm guessing you aren't really a dog person.

I actually don't have a Pitbull, but here is why I like them better than some other big breeds. They are playful, intelligent, trainable, quiet, short haired (an issue for me), loving, energetic and remarkably stable dogs. They score higher on temperament testing than Golden Retrievers. They are the kind of dog you can take anywhere and will adapt well to almost any situation. They adapt pretty well to apartment living. They are an extremely healthy breed (no hip dysplasia, no heart conditions).

But Pit bulls are not like other dogs, I have been attacked by 2 of them. Both loving family pets who went to obedience school. They just decided they didn't like me.

Now no big deal for any other dog, ya a dog mauling sucks, but you can pry a German Shep. or a Lab off you. And if you can't, a couple of bystanders easily can.

You can't with a pit bull, its stronger than a trio of adults, and impervious to punching or kicking when they have a hold of your arm. It took a few blows from a fire extinguisher to the head the get the thing to let go long enough to try and pin it.

With a bite stick, my mother could get a pitbull off of anything. No one who owns a strong dog should be unknowledgeable about those devices. I wouldn't punch or kick any dog to get it off someone. First thing would be a bite stick, next step is lifting the back legs (per my father who I have seen break up dog fights in the blink of an eye).

I believe Akitas, Bullmastiffs, Mastiffs and Rottweilers all have similar strength in their jaws to pitbulls. Pitbulls don't have locking jaws or anything and there is no evidence that they exert more pounds per square inch than other breeds. National geographic even did a show about this once. It's more about the size of the dog. A 100lb Shepherd is going to be able to bite a lot harder than a 50lb pitbull http://en.allexperts.com/q/Dogs-701/dog-fights.htm The reason it can be harder to get a pitbull to give up is because they are often more tenacious than other breeds. That determination is a good quality in other circumstances. Frankly though, it doesn't really matter in determining the severity of the unjury. The damage done from a dog bite is done in the first second. The dog holding on isn't going to cause any more damage, though it certainly prolongs the pain.

I understand you not being comfortable around them if you've been attacked by them. The only breed of dog I've ever been really badly scared by was a German Shepherd who bit me when I was a papergirl. I wouldn't buy one and I avoid them when I can. That doesn't mean I think my experience justifies a breed ban.


If you think "Domestication' is a magic catch all, what about Elephants? They HAVE been domesticated for a long time.

Elephants have not been domesticated as long as dogs have. This is the last comment I'm going to make on other animals. I'll happily stay on the actual topic which is different dog breeds.




You know whats less dangerous than even a well trained pit bull? A gun. Its inert and just sits there. We do ban you from running around with an unlicensed gun.

So license pitbulls. License all large dogs. I personally have NO patience for people who keep those dogs improperly and wouldn't have a problem with licensing at all.

If you don't think you can ban a breed of dogs, reality disagrees. Its been done.
Sure, it's been done. And the results were just like I said: they find a new monster dog breed to freak out about. My bet is the next one will be Mastiffs.
...........
 

Unforgiven

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May 28, 2007
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Sorry your sister got bitten. Those who I've met that have been attacked by dogs carry it with them for the rest of their lives.

I've seen two dog attacks first hand.

The first was my sister attacked by a german shepard. We were at our neighbor's house, like any other day. Walking across their deck, like any other day. Past their family pet like any other day. He was a well trained guard dog (yes, well trained). He was about 10 years old and had never bitten. Nothing was unusual. Nothing was out of place. Five adults were around, including his owners and he just suddenly lunged as my sister was WALKING (not running, screaming, flapping, taunting, grabbing food or anything of the sort) across the deck. He caught her by the buttock, and wouldn't let go until a shovel caught him full on upside the head. It happened so fast not one of the five adults standing there could have stopped the initial attack, and there was no reason for it. No history, no indication. We were farm kids. We'd dealt with dogs all our lives and know how to behave around them.

The second attack I saw was very similar. The kid hadn't done anything wrong that anyone could see, he wasn't even playing with the dog.

While I get what people say about negligent parents and provcative behavior, it is NOT the whole story with dog attacks. Simply being a good trainer and being on hand doesn't ensure your dog will never hurt someone for reasons that you'll never understand.
 

Unforgiven

Force majeure
May 28, 2007
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Those dogs may have just been unsound. I think that happens. I just don't think that's what happens most of the time. When you hear a story of dog attacks, it's usually a toddler involved with a big dog. That alone implies poor management on the parents part to me.

Off topic, but I don't trust trained guard dogs ever. As soon as someone says those words, that's a dog I avoid (and I love dogs). IME they are the scariest dogs.

I've never thought to trust a guard dog other than to bite things that he has a chance to bite.

I don't want to sound mean or imply to take away any validity from Kerrie's accounting here, but it seems like something is missing.

Like a story of a person having one toke of pot and their head exploded clean off their body. No sniper, no explosives, nothing out of the ordinary. Just boom.
Something doesn't make sense. If not for a mental health condition in the animal, I would consider first, a misread situation.
 

Unforgiven

Force majeure
May 28, 2007
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Reading of the accounts of attacks here I would like to mention that hitting a dog on the head does nothing. It's one of the thickest bone areas on the dog and might as well be boiler plate. If a dog has latched on and will not let go of you or someone else, a finger or two up the dog's bum will get even the most enraged dog to let go.

I know go ahead with the jokes.

It works. And don't try to pull whatever it is out of the dog's mouth. If it's a limb like your hand, though it goes against what you want to do, push in towards the back of the dogs throat. They have a gag reflex too.
 

IdRatherBeSkiing

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May 28, 2007
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The only problem with breed banning is it treats the symptom and not the cause. So in the end, you haven't really solved anything at all.

A vicious chiwawa is unlikely to pull the same kick as a vicious pit bull given the same irresponsible owner. Of course, doberman's and german sheppards probably could.
 

Unforgiven

Force majeure
May 28, 2007
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A vicious chiwawa is unlikely to pull the same kick as a vicious pit bull given the same irresponsible owner. Of course, doberman's and german sheppards probably could.

ST. PETERS, Missouri — A woman angry that her new puppy had died pushed her way into a dog breeder's home and repeatedly hit her on the head with the dead Chihuahua, authorities said.
The 33-year-old woman told police she had taken the puppy to a veterinarian, who said it was only 4 weeks old and needed to be returned to its mother. But before she could return the puppy, it died.
Early Wednesday, the woman went to the breeder's home, pushed her way inside and began fighting with the breeder as she tried to make her way to the basement to get another puppy, police said.
The breeder wrestled the woman out of her house to the front porch, where the woman then hit the breeder over the head numerous times with the dead puppy, the St. Louis Post-Dispatch reported, citing police.
As she drove away, the woman waved the dead puppy out of the car's sunroof and yelled threats at the breeder, police said. She later called the breeder and threatened her and her family, according to court records.
Police said they are considering felony burglary charges against woman and misdemeanor assault charges.

heh heh
 

IdRatherBeSkiing

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May 28, 2007
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ST. PETERS, Missouri — A woman angry that her new puppy had died pushed her way into a dog breeder's home and repeatedly hit her on the head with the dead Chihuahua, authorities said.
The 33-year-old woman told police she had taken the puppy to a veterinarian, who said it was only 4 weeks old and needed to be returned to its mother. But before she could return the puppy, it died.
Early Wednesday, the woman went to the breeder's home, pushed her way inside and began fighting with the breeder as she tried to make her way to the basement to get another puppy, police said.
The breeder wrestled the woman out of her house to the front porch, where the woman then hit the breeder over the head numerous times with the dead puppy, the St. Louis Post-Dispatch reported, citing police.
As she drove away, the woman waved the dead puppy out of the car's sunroof and yelled threats at the breeder, police said. She later called the breeder and threatened her and her family, according to court records.
Police said they are considering felony burglary charges against woman and misdemeanor assault charges.

heh heh

That is pretty funny. But it wasn't exactly the work of the dog was it?
 

shadowshiv

Dark Overlord
May 29, 2007
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ST. PETERS, Missouri — A woman angry that her new puppy had died pushed her way into a dog breeder's home and repeatedly hit her on the head with the dead Chihuahua, authorities said.
The 33-year-old woman told police she had taken the puppy to a veterinarian, who said it was only 4 weeks old and needed to be returned to its mother. But before she could return the puppy, it died.
Early Wednesday, the woman went to the breeder's home, pushed her way inside and began fighting with the breeder as she tried to make her way to the basement to get another puppy, police said.
The breeder wrestled the woman out of her house to the front porch, where the woman then hit the breeder over the head numerous times with the dead puppy, the St. Louis Post-Dispatch reported, citing police.
As she drove away, the woman waved the dead puppy out of the car's sunroof and yelled threats at the breeder, police said. She later called the breeder and threatened her and her family, according to court records.
Police said they are considering felony burglary charges against woman and misdemeanor assault charges.

heh heh

The way that woman acts, it's probably a good thing that she didn't get another dog.8O
 

karrie

OogedyBoogedy
Jan 6, 2007
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A vicious chiwawa is unlikely to pull the same kick as a vicious pit bull given the same irresponsible owner. Of course, doberman's and german sheppards probably could.

Regardless of the potential of Germans and Dobies to attack, every survery I've ever heard puts Pitbulls and Rotties as responsible for roughly 2/3 of all dogbite related deaths. That's huge, considering they don't comprise 2/3 of all large breed dogs.
 

thomaska

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May 24, 2006
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I'm going to be terribly embarrassed if this post ends up being the longest, and most responded to, that I have started...:smile:

Although...Durka was right, it would have actually been funny if it had happened to an adult instead of a kid...