............A dog is a dog.
Is bull, meaning you don't know what you talking about. Just because we call it a "dog" doesn't mean its characteristics change. Many "breeds" or "dog" are closer to a wolf or coyote than other "breeds" of "dog". A dingo is technically a "breed" of "dog". That said, a "dog is not a dog".
I said that in response to the ridiculous comparisons to other animals. Clearly I know that different breeds have different qualities. If you read my whole post, I would think that was obvious.
While people may think being bred to fight other dogs matter, thats something you train not something you breed. You breed them to have good fighting qualities, muscle mass and teeth. What they fight is training. The damage they can do is genetic. There is no "only fights dogs not humans" gene you can carefully increase through selective breeding.
You do breed animal aggression into them, it is more than just muscle and teeth. My rat terrier has never been trained to attack small animals, but he does it. It's in his instincts. Similarly Labs will often want to carry things, collies will often try to herd children, corgis will naturally nip at heels, even though they were never taught to do it. My dog doesn't do those things. If you think that instincts aren't bred into dogs, that the only thing we breed is their size and teeth, then why would a pitbull have a different temperament than a pomeranian? Why do rat terriers attack small things, but not large ones? It's because instincts are specific. Plus, most registere AmStaff breeding lines have been breeding out any kind of aggression for decades now.
I too am a dog person, I grew up with dogs, half my family breeds dogs (Labs, Sheps and completely unrelated, Dats). I worked with the breeders alot, I even got to wear the attack suit (fun in a "he can't bite through this right?" kind of way. And I can tell you, a Shep is not anywhere near as muscular as a Pitbull.
No offense, but I get the impression you're a dog lover who hasn't spent much time looking into breeding. Different specimens from different breeds will have different muscle masses. If dog bites are the concern than a comparison of bite strength seems to be the only important thing.
Seriously, you ever touched a pitbull? They are hard, rock solid muscle. Even a rott you can poke the squish with your finger. 120lbs of pure muscle is alot more than the 150lbs of lab I grew up with.
I grew up with pitbulls. Our family pet was a lazy dog in general and very pudgy in her old age. She was not pure muscle by any means. My mom used to always give her "treats" (her favorite was rice pudding). Your 150lb lab proves there is a lot of variety in a breed considering the fact that a registered lab should only weight about 80lbs!
Now when I say "pit bull" I realise its not a specific breed. And some types of related breed are pretty friendly, while some "not technically" pitbulls (but closely related and usually included in the legislation) are not.
Bull terriers for instance, not technically pitbulls, but are at the top of the list for dogs I would consider you needing a license for.
An Argentie Dogo (also not pit bulls)..thats iffy, some of them have been poorly bred for fighting.
Staffies (American and Bull) are good family dogs, that being said they are very dangerous if you get a bad one (just as some people are born with mental disorders so are some dogs, and no amount of training can fix that)
This is the problem. Everyone has a different idea for which breeds should be included, which shouldn't, which ones are really bad, which ones are just bad if raised improperly... Many Staffies are dually registered as AmStaffs and APBTs. You say they are good family dogs (I agree btw), but someone else would see it and be terrified by it immediately. I am all for requiring licenses for ALL large breed dogs.
And for gods sake, there is no need for a Presa, I've only met one, but even the proffessional trainer who owned it said it should be banned, the thing was just a loose cannon, Im pretty sure it got put down.
Any big dog with an unstable temperament should be put down. I recognize the difference there. If my current dog weighed 120lbs, he would have been put down too, but obviously it's easier to control him an ensure he won't bite anyone.
To claim "A dog is a dog" is insane. Different breeds exist because a dog IS NOT a dog.
Again, I thought that was obvious that I was responding to the notion that a dog was the same as another species. I know that different breeds have different characteristics. Read why I like AmStaffs over some of the other breeds I mentionned and I would think that was pretty clear.
Beat this besti4lity thread if you can...
- Thread starter thomaska
- Start date
But, you'd be ok making it impossible for good dogs like our family pet not to be born? Can you see why that strikes me as odd?:lol:
The majority of bites here are mixed breed dogs. The reason for that is that the majority of dogs are mixed breed dogs.
http://www.dogexpert.com/Dog%20Bite%20Statistics/DogBiteStatistics.html
Mixed breeds and not pure bred dogs are the type of dog most often involved in inflicting bites to people. The pure-bred dogs most often involved are German shepherds and Chow chows.
I love mutts too, but the problem is for every mutt that finds a nice home there are probably 10 that wind up getting euthanized in a shelter. They might as well just euthanize 90% of the litter at birth and save time. I don't think it's fair to demand that kind of sacrifice from all those animals just so that cute and nice mutts can still be born. Cute and nice registered dogs make good family pets too and they don't wind up in shelters nearly as often because their breeders will always take them back.
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. Cute and nice registered dogs make good family pets too and they don't wind up in shelters nearly as often because their breeders will always take them back.[/quote]
That is true, as I was a registered dog breeder for years, and had specific detailed contracts with every puppy I sold, and one of those clauses said that, if, for any reason, you decide you cannot
keep this puppy, it can be returned to me, and I will find him another home. None of them ever
needed to go the SPCA.
That is true, as I was a registered dog breeder for years, and had specific detailed contracts with every puppy I sold, and one of those clauses said that, if, for any reason, you decide you cannot
keep this puppy, it can be returned to me, and I will find him another home. None of them ever
needed to go the SPCA.
But, you'd be ok making it impossible for good dogs like our family pet not to be born? Can you see why that strikes me as odd?:lol:
The majority of bites here are mixed breed dogs. The reason for that is that the majority of dogs are mixed breed dogs.
I love mutts too, but the problem is for every mutt that finds a nice home there are probably 10 that wind up getting euthanized in a shelter. They might as well just euthanize 90% of the litter at birth and save time. I don't think it's fair to demand that kind of sacrifice from all those animals just so that cute and nice mutts can still be born. Cute and nice registered dogs make good family pets too and they don't wind up in shelters nearly as often because their breeders will always take them back.
I can see why it strikes you as odd yes, but it really doesn't change my view at all. And don't get me wrong, I think that breeding dogs should be done only by license. But to say that those licenses should be affiliated strictly with clubs devoted to purebred dogs is where I find it a bad idea.
That is true, as I was a registered dog breeder for years, and had specific detailed contracts with every puppy I sold, and one of those clauses said that, if, for any reason, you decide you cannot
keep this puppy, it can be returned to me, and I will find him another home. None of them ever
needed to go the SPCA.[/quote]
Any good breeder would insist on it IMO. I wouldn't get a dog from a breeder that didn't. The contract I had to sign to get my current dog was extremely detailed and I was questionned extensively by his breeder. She has been a real help with the behavioral problems I've had with my dog since then. Rat terriers are an odd breed
What kind of dogs did you breed?
I wonder what qualifications would be required to be licensed? And could you be licensed to breed AmStaffs and such? The only reason I don't like people breeding mutts is that IME they have no particular scruples about it, and they are only adding to the number that wind up in shelters. If they were as particular as the purebred dog breeders were, I wouldn't have such a problem with it. I would much rather people do like your family did by saving a shelter dog rather than buying a mutt.
Mutts happen by chance - not selection. Spay or neuter your pet. BTW, My favourite dog was a Heinz 114 - a cross between two Heinz 57s.
Wolf
Wolf
Any good breeder would insist on it IMO. I wouldn't get a dog from a breeder that didn't. The contract I had to sign to get my current dog was extremely detailed and I was questionned extensively by his breeder. She has been a real help with the behavioral problems I've had with my dog since then. Rat terriers are an odd breed
What kind of dogs did you breed?[/quote]
I bred Shelties for about 5 yrs, but got tired of the noise, and went back to labs, as my husband I
had field trial labs many yrs. ago, but this time I raised beautiful hunting/show labs. Specialized
in chocolate and blacks, Joe is on my avatar.
I don't mean any disrespect here, but you have to be kidding me. If you grew up around dogs and all as you say you have, someone made sure as hell you were kept in the dark about it all.
150 pound lab? The standard is at maximum 80 pounds for starters.
While there are plenty of backyard breeders that make a mess of things due to a little amount of knowledge, anyone who knows the standard for pitting breeds knows that the most important thing the animal can have is a calm personality and intelligence. If stronger meant winner then there would be no contest between dogs bear bulls mules or anything else a dog has been pitted against.
I'm convinced that you don't know what you are talking about. That isn't something new either, as there are plenty of people who think they know it all by haven't even a basic grasp of what a dog is. But that doesn't mean you can't get lucky.
I agree wholeheartedly about licencing. Yes all dogs should be identifiable to their breeder and only those owners who can pass some testing should be allowed to own or possess any dog or animal for that matter. Only animals that conform to a standard, no mixed breeds and no breeding without a yearly inspection and breeding plan. I would go so far as to collect dna on registered animals to ensure compliance with the regs.
Pitbulls or any breed that has been bred for heightened aggression towards people doesn't conform to the standard. Deviation from the standard should be controlled rigorously.
And enough of the poo-doodle shyt.
150 pound lab? The standard is at maximum 80 pounds for starters.
While there are plenty of backyard breeders that make a mess of things due to a little amount of knowledge, anyone who knows the standard for pitting breeds knows that the most important thing the animal can have is a calm personality and intelligence. If stronger meant winner then there would be no contest between dogs bear bulls mules or anything else a dog has been pitted against.
I'm convinced that you don't know what you are talking about. That isn't something new either, as there are plenty of people who think they know it all by haven't even a basic grasp of what a dog is. But that doesn't mean you can't get lucky.
I agree wholeheartedly about licencing. Yes all dogs should be identifiable to their breeder and only those owners who can pass some testing should be allowed to own or possess any dog or animal for that matter. Only animals that conform to a standard, no mixed breeds and no breeding without a yearly inspection and breeding plan. I would go so far as to collect dna on registered animals to ensure compliance with the regs.
Pitbulls or any breed that has been bred for heightened aggression towards people doesn't conform to the standard. Deviation from the standard should be controlled rigorously.
And enough of the poo-doodle shyt.
Any good breeder would insist on it IMO. I wouldn't get a dog from a breeder that didn't. The contract I had to sign to get my current dog was extremely detailed and I was questionned extensively by his breeder. She has been a real help with the behavioral problems I've had with my dog since then. Rat terriers are an odd breed
What kind of dogs did you breed?
I bred Shelties for about 5 yrs, but got tired of the noise, and went back to labs, as my husband I
had field trial labs many yrs. ago, but this time I raised beautiful hunting/show labs. Specialized
in chocolate and blacks, Joe is on my avatar.[/quote]
Nice looking lab
My old neighbours had a sheltie, so I can sympathize about the noise
The minute someone were to say that all black people can dance we'd jump on them for racist general remarks...Huge difference between humans and dogs but the large paintbrush stroked on that is the same one that states pitbulls are aggressive. A silly generalization to say the least.
People seem to be getting more and more ignorant of breeds. Choosing the look of an animal instead of it's type. You don't put a border collie or Australian sheppard in an apartment setting. You don't put a toy yorkie in a daycare setting. It's just too bad that humans are not smart enough to realize these key differences. There are dogs that are good at protecting property (dobermans's for one) and there are dogs that are good at protecting their human (AmStaffs for one) and there are dogs that are just meant for human companship and to be stroked. You choose the breed that suits your lifestyle. You do not choose a dog on how it looks and expect it to conform.
Can you tell a pitbull?
http://www.pitbullsontheweb.com/petbull/findpit.html
People seem to be getting more and more ignorant of breeds. Choosing the look of an animal instead of it's type. You don't put a border collie or Australian sheppard in an apartment setting. You don't put a toy yorkie in a daycare setting. It's just too bad that humans are not smart enough to realize these key differences. There are dogs that are good at protecting property (dobermans's for one) and there are dogs that are good at protecting their human (AmStaffs for one) and there are dogs that are just meant for human companship and to be stroked. You choose the breed that suits your lifestyle. You do not choose a dog on how it looks and expect it to conform.
Can you tell a pitbull?
http://www.pitbullsontheweb.com/petbull/findpit.html
I grew up in a govt. project apartment with a border collie....but she was out with me most of my free time....without a leash....she ran free and never crossed a street without my command.....
Man I miss her...she was part of the gang too.....she was given to me as a gift from my baby sitter cause her dad would not allow her to have her....she was this lil fluffy pup....sooooo cute....so lovable......i adored her....she was my bestest friend.....
Now why not? You're not making silly generalizations based on their breeds are you?
No not really because based on the standard for the breed they will need to live very active lives and do not do well crated or taken to a small near by park a couple of times a day. Some breeds do very well doing just that.
To say this breed is dangerous though because of some dogs that aren't even of the same breed are, is a silly generalization.
Nice looking lab
My old neighbours had a sheltie, so I can sympathize about the noise[/quote]Ha! My brother had a Sheltie! I doubt there's a noisier breed of dog.
If a leaf falls...they bark. If it doesn't...they bark.
Muz
Typical breeder in your opinion?
Jul 18, 2007 04:30 AM
Associated Press
RICHMOND, Va.–NFL star Michael Vick was indicted by a federal grand jury yesterday on charges of sponsoring a dogfighting operation so grisly the losers either died in the pit or sometimes were electrocuted, drowned, hanged or shot.
The Atlanta Falcons quarterback and three others were charged with competitive dogfighting, procuring and training pit bulls for fighting and conducting the enterprise across state lines.
The operation was named "Bad Newz Kennels," according to the indictment, and the dogs were housed, trained and fought at a property owned by Vick in Surry County, Va.
The 18-page federal indictment, filed in the U.S. District Court for the Eastern District of Virginia, alleges the 27-year-old Vick and his co-defendants began the dogfighting operation in early 2001, his rookie year with the Falcons.
The indictment states that dogs fought to the death – or close to it.
If convicted, Vick and the others – Purnell A. Peace, Quanis L. Phillips and Tony Taylor – could face up to six years in prison, $350,000 (U.S.) in fines and restitution.
Messages left at the offices and home of Vick's attorney, Larry Woodward, were not returned. A woman who answered the phone at the home of Vick's mother said "no comment" and hung up.
"We are disappointed that Michael Vick has put himself in a position where a federal grand jury has returned an indictment against him," NFL spokesman Brian McCarthy said.
"The activities alleged are cruel, degrading and illegal. Michael Vick's guilt has not yet been proven, and we believe that all concerned should allow the legal process to determine the facts."
Vick and the Falcons are scheduled to report to training camp on July 25.
"Obviously, we are disturbed by today's news," the team said in a statement posted on its website, apologizing to fans for the negative publicity. "We will do the right thing for our club as the legal process plays out."
Jul 18, 2007 04:30 AM
Associated Press
RICHMOND, Va.–NFL star Michael Vick was indicted by a federal grand jury yesterday on charges of sponsoring a dogfighting operation so grisly the losers either died in the pit or sometimes were electrocuted, drowned, hanged or shot.
The Atlanta Falcons quarterback and three others were charged with competitive dogfighting, procuring and training pit bulls for fighting and conducting the enterprise across state lines.
The operation was named "Bad Newz Kennels," according to the indictment, and the dogs were housed, trained and fought at a property owned by Vick in Surry County, Va.
The 18-page federal indictment, filed in the U.S. District Court for the Eastern District of Virginia, alleges the 27-year-old Vick and his co-defendants began the dogfighting operation in early 2001, his rookie year with the Falcons.
The indictment states that dogs fought to the death – or close to it.
If convicted, Vick and the others – Purnell A. Peace, Quanis L. Phillips and Tony Taylor – could face up to six years in prison, $350,000 (U.S.) in fines and restitution.
Messages left at the offices and home of Vick's attorney, Larry Woodward, were not returned. A woman who answered the phone at the home of Vick's mother said "no comment" and hung up.
"We are disappointed that Michael Vick has put himself in a position where a federal grand jury has returned an indictment against him," NFL spokesman Brian McCarthy said.
"The activities alleged are cruel, degrading and illegal. Michael Vick's guilt has not yet been proven, and we believe that all concerned should allow the legal process to determine the facts."
Vick and the Falcons are scheduled to report to training camp on July 25.
"Obviously, we are disturbed by today's news," the team said in a statement posted on its website, apologizing to fans for the negative publicity. "We will do the right thing for our club as the legal process plays out."
Silly generalizations? No not really. If you call any Border Collie Rescue, Jack Russell Rescue or really any working dog rescue organizations and ask them why they have a rescue dedicated to that animal they'll tell you it's because people have chosen an inappropriate breed.
But, according to so many on here, genetic predispositions can't be the issue when problems arise in dogs. So which is it? Are certain breeds predisposed to certain behaviors, or aren't they? Are genetics a factor, or not?
Where do people get the idea that any problem is the result of a single cause?
There are always a host of factors that go into a problem dog. Like a building is made from various materials, so is a personality.
There are always a host of factors that go into a problem dog. Like a building is made from various materials, so is a personality.