I think this is probably true but we seem to make sure we distance our selves from this grusome list. What is our share of the blame here? Dogs are selectively bred now and have been for some time. With boneheads breeding for aggression and potential for violent interaction, who is to blame the dog or us? They never used to be like this.
Beat this besti4lity thread if you can...
- Thread starter thomaska
- Start date
so correct if i'm wrong, but did i just see a bit of a turn around here.
If so, i blame it on karrie.....(Who is this woman behind the cartoon avatar )
Unforgiven, in all seriousness and i swear this is true. If there is one subject I respect in you in it's a dog subject...It's prolly the only thing i miss actually being able to talk to you about....But i always had the impression you were a defender of the present breed of pit bull.
And i have never heard you say anything like this, and you know me memory is good:Dogs are selectively bred now and have been for some time. With boneheads breeding for aggression and potential for violent interaction, who is to blame the dog or us?
doggy stuff
Hey, this has got to be one of the longest threads ever on CC.
And guess what??!!8O8O
It was/is civil.8O8O
Decent debate8O8O
No name calling. No baiting, trolling, 8O8O
Pretty much on the subject all the way through8O8O
WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH EVERYBODY??????????/8O8O
ccasion9::thumbup:
:grommit:
Hey, this has got to be one of the longest threads ever on CC.
And guess what??!!8O8O
It was/is civil.8O8O
Decent debate8O8O
No name calling. No baiting, trolling, 8O8O
Pretty much on the subject all the way through8O8O
WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH EVERYBODY??????????/8O8O
ccasion9::thumbup::grommit:
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Tracey, Species is a paper classification. It has no basis in reality. Genetics are a sliding scale, not boxes on a chart.
Dogs are classified as one species for historical purposes. It was assumed that if you could interbreed, you had to be in the same species. This is since wrong, Dogs are no longer truly one species simpley because you can interbreed.
Tigers, Lions, Leopards and Jaguars can all interbreed, they are not one "species" (again a paper term, genetics are a sliding scale not a set of check boxes in a tree formation).
Likewise, you can mix a domestic cat and lynx or bobcat in the laboratory, no one has tried with Puma (for size reasons it would probably be fatal). Thus if we still applied the concept of Breeds in the same way we do for dogs then a Puma, Lynx and Bobcat would all be the same species.
We don't for obvious reasons. And realistically, all dogs are not "Dogs", despite being able to interbreed a german shephard is really a different species than a rottweiller which is a different species than other animals.
And your missing the point on the Dangers of Pittbulls, its not Jaw strength thats dangerous. Jaw strength (unless you are very weak such a child or elderly or a very petite man or woman) is not a big issue, it may hospitalize you, but it won't kill you.
Pure body muscle. A pitbull is all muscle. Even with a Muzzle on a Pitbull could easily kill someone with raw muscle power.
There is no reason to own an animal that deadly no matter how cutesy you think it is. Bears are cute and intelligent too, and far more docile. Right up until it spooks and kills half a dozen people.
And not all dog species have been domesticated as long as elephants. Some are far longer, some have not been.
Quite frankly, domestication only matters in terms of suitability if the animal has been bred to BE passive. Fighting dogs have been bred to be specifically aggressive. Its the same reason why cats have not become docile despite being domesticated for over a hundred thousand years. They weren't bred to be docile, they were bred to hunt rodents. And that means they get twitchy, and after purring and wanting to be pet, at a random moment they tend to just snap and claw at you then skitter away. Many cats never do this, many well trained and cared for cats can't help but do it.
No matter how cutesy you think Fighting Breed dogs are, they will do what they were bred to do. Even you can train them not to (and you can, same as you can with a bear) they are too dangerous if you don't train them properly.
In terms of power, a German Shephard and even a rottweiler (though they are pretty damn strong) is nowhere near the power of a pitbull, which can kill or seriously injure someone with a muzzle still on.
Your logic that it is somehow wrong to ban one type of animal if you allow another type is absurd. You want an inquisitive dog? there are many, you don't need one that can run through an average hollow house door (and I've seen it happen when someone opened up its treat bag just as someone else was slamming the door, although it was pretty damn funny)
Dogs are classified as one species for historical purposes. It was assumed that if you could interbreed, you had to be in the same species. This is since wrong, Dogs are no longer truly one species simpley because you can interbreed.
Tigers, Lions, Leopards and Jaguars can all interbreed, they are not one "species" (again a paper term, genetics are a sliding scale not a set of check boxes in a tree formation).
Likewise, you can mix a domestic cat and lynx or bobcat in the laboratory, no one has tried with Puma (for size reasons it would probably be fatal). Thus if we still applied the concept of Breeds in the same way we do for dogs then a Puma, Lynx and Bobcat would all be the same species.
We don't for obvious reasons. And realistically, all dogs are not "Dogs", despite being able to interbreed a german shephard is really a different species than a rottweiller which is a different species than other animals.
And your missing the point on the Dangers of Pittbulls, its not Jaw strength thats dangerous. Jaw strength (unless you are very weak such a child or elderly or a very petite man or woman) is not a big issue, it may hospitalize you, but it won't kill you.
Pure body muscle. A pitbull is all muscle. Even with a Muzzle on a Pitbull could easily kill someone with raw muscle power.
There is no reason to own an animal that deadly no matter how cutesy you think it is. Bears are cute and intelligent too, and far more docile. Right up until it spooks and kills half a dozen people.
And not all dog species have been domesticated as long as elephants. Some are far longer, some have not been.
Quite frankly, domestication only matters in terms of suitability if the animal has been bred to BE passive. Fighting dogs have been bred to be specifically aggressive. Its the same reason why cats have not become docile despite being domesticated for over a hundred thousand years. They weren't bred to be docile, they were bred to hunt rodents. And that means they get twitchy, and after purring and wanting to be pet, at a random moment they tend to just snap and claw at you then skitter away. Many cats never do this, many well trained and cared for cats can't help but do it.
No matter how cutesy you think Fighting Breed dogs are, they will do what they were bred to do. Even you can train them not to (and you can, same as you can with a bear) they are too dangerous if you don't train them properly.
In terms of power, a German Shephard and even a rottweiler (though they are pretty damn strong) is nowhere near the power of a pitbull, which can kill or seriously injure someone with a muzzle still on.
Your logic that it is somehow wrong to ban one type of animal if you allow another type is absurd. You want an inquisitive dog? there are many, you don't need one that can run through an average hollow house door (and I've seen it happen when someone opened up its treat bag just as someone else was slamming the door, although it was pretty damn funny)
But if you look back into the 70s and 80s, it was all Dobies. That doesn't mean that Dobies as a breed are unsound or unable to leave among humans. The dog breed responsible for the most deaths will always be the popular big dog of the time. They get popular, bad breeders start cranking out bad specimens, bad owners buy them and bad results happen.
BTW, the number of dog related fatalities is tiny. 2/3 sounds like a big number, but if the total number is say 24, then 2/3 is only 8 (I've seen estimates on dog related fatalities in the US each year range from 17-26, so they must be even less in Canada). So if say 6 pitbulls killed something, all of them should be euthanized? In the US, that would probably easily mean a million dogs. Pitbulls and pitmixes are one of the most common breeds around and the US has about 70 million dogs. That seems like a tremendous overreaction to me.
doberman's have no violent aggression bred into them as far as i can recall...like any dog they can be made viscoius.....
they are a breed that really is family orientated...they bond well with humans and other dogs they live with....
What you're doing is using bad examples as the standard. While the truth is exactly in the other direction. As well you can't use extremes as examples of the norm.
Statistics can be used to prove anything. heh heh
More often than not, it's a small portion of the whole that makes up the stick used to beat the rest with. But one thing always seems to stay the same. No one talks about what to do with the small protion of the population that are willing to infringe on others for their own wants and whims.
More often than not, it's a small portion of the whole that makes up the stick used to beat the rest with. But one thing always seems to stay the same. No one talks about what to do with the small protion of the population that are willing to infringe on others for their own wants and whims.
Doberman's were bred by a tax collector to protect him on his rounds. They were specifically bred to be human aggressive. That's why Dobies still tend to bond only with "their" people and aren't usually too loving with strangers. My dad had a great Dobie before I was born that he still talks about. My mom hated him because he wouldn't do a thing she told him. He thought dad was "his" person and no one else mattered.
Ha ha, for a minute I thought it stood for bull**** luck.
I haven't fully wrapped by brain around it to have an opinion either way.
Well, saying that they are all euthanized sounds like an overreaction yes. I've never seen a breed specific law written that way. I've seen laws which call for the sterilization of existing pets in that breed. Laws which permit owning animals which were owned before it took effect, and which allow animal control to screen for unstable animals when those permits are handed out. But neer laws which demand owners to haul all their animals in for euthanising.
A dog is a dog.
Is bull, meaning you don't know what you talking about. Just because we call it a "dog" doesn't mean its characteristics change. Many "breeds" or "dog" are closer to a wolf or coyote than other "breeds" of "dog". A dingo is technically a "breed" of "dog". That said, a "dog is not a dog".
While people may think being bred to fight other dogs matter, thats something you train not something you breed. You breed them to have good fighting qualities, muscle mass and teeth. What they fight is training. The damage they can do is genetic. There is no "only fights dogs not humans" gene you can carefully increase through selective breeding.
I too am a dog person, I grew up with dogs, half my family breeds dogs (Labs, Sheps and completely unrelated, Dats). I worked with the breeders alot, I even got to wear the attack suit (fun in a "he can't bite through this right?" kind of way. And I can tell you, a Shep is not anywhere near as muscular as a Pitbull.
Seriously, you ever touched a pitbull? They are hard, rock solid muscle. Even a rott you can poke the squish with your finger. 120lbs of pure muscle is alot more than the 150lbs of lab I grew up with.
Now when I say "pit bull" I realise its not a specific breed. And some types of related breed are pretty friendly, while some "not technically" pitbulls (but closely related and usually included in the legislation) are not.
Bull terriers for instance, not technically pitbulls, but are at the top of the list for dogs I would consider you needing a license for.
An Argentie Dogo (also not pit bulls)..thats iffy, some of them have been poorly bred for fighting.
Staffies (American and Bull) are good family dogs, that being said they are very dangerous if you get a bad one (just as some people are born with mental disorders so are some dogs, and no amount of training can fix that)
And for gods sake, there is no need for a Presa, I've only met one, but even the proffessional trainer who owned it said it should be banned, the thing was just a loose cannon, Im pretty sure it got put down.
To claim "A dog is a dog" is insane. Different breeds exist because a dog IS NOT a dog.
Is bull, meaning you don't know what you talking about. Just because we call it a "dog" doesn't mean its characteristics change. Many "breeds" or "dog" are closer to a wolf or coyote than other "breeds" of "dog". A dingo is technically a "breed" of "dog". That said, a "dog is not a dog".
While people may think being bred to fight other dogs matter, thats something you train not something you breed. You breed them to have good fighting qualities, muscle mass and teeth. What they fight is training. The damage they can do is genetic. There is no "only fights dogs not humans" gene you can carefully increase through selective breeding.
I too am a dog person, I grew up with dogs, half my family breeds dogs (Labs, Sheps and completely unrelated, Dats). I worked with the breeders alot, I even got to wear the attack suit (fun in a "he can't bite through this right?" kind of way. And I can tell you, a Shep is not anywhere near as muscular as a Pitbull.
Seriously, you ever touched a pitbull? They are hard, rock solid muscle. Even a rott you can poke the squish with your finger. 120lbs of pure muscle is alot more than the 150lbs of lab I grew up with.
Now when I say "pit bull" I realise its not a specific breed. And some types of related breed are pretty friendly, while some "not technically" pitbulls (but closely related and usually included in the legislation) are not.
Bull terriers for instance, not technically pitbulls, but are at the top of the list for dogs I would consider you needing a license for.
An Argentie Dogo (also not pit bulls)..thats iffy, some of them have been poorly bred for fighting.
Staffies (American and Bull) are good family dogs, that being said they are very dangerous if you get a bad one (just as some people are born with mental disorders so are some dogs, and no amount of training can fix that)
And for gods sake, there is no need for a Presa, I've only met one, but even the proffessional trainer who owned it said it should be banned, the thing was just a loose cannon, Im pretty sure it got put down.
To claim "A dog is a dog" is insane. Different breeds exist because a dog IS NOT a dog.
I've never seen any law that required euthanizing either, but they often do forbid getting any dogs that didn't exist before the ban. It results in the same thing: the complete dissapearance of an entire breed. Collective punishment at its finest.
I personally would love a law that required sterilizing ALL dogs that were not registered to breeders approved by the AKC/CKC. There is nothing I dislike more in the dog world than casual breeders or people who allow their dogs to remain intact when they are not breeding quality. The problem gets a lot of publicity when it's pitbulls, but few people seem to care about the backyard breeders cranking out whatever dog is popular at the moment. You can go downtown to any pet store and buy a Yorkie, a poodle, a pomeranian, a chihuahua, etc. as long as you have a couple hundred bucks. They won't kill anyone, but they are the cause of so much animal suffering. I can't stand people supporting those kind of breeding practices. I won't even shop at a pet store that sells dogs. Anyone who breeds a dog that is not registered and of a proper temperament and conformation is just being irreponsible. Anyone who buys a dog like that is contributing to the problem too. Unfortunately, it's only the dogs who will pay the price for that.
Hmm... I'd have a huge issue with that, because in MY experience, breed specific breeding is a huge problem, and results in more unstable dogs than is necessary. I love mutts. Stable, reliable, good qualities abound. I've never seen a mutt attack anyone. Only purebred dogs people paid good money for and invested time and training into. (I will concede though that stray mutt packs on reserves and in villages in Canada have been the cause of much sorrow, but that's inevitable with feral dogs)
I agree though about the need for much more sterilization, and I never shop at pet stores either. Our dog came from the SPCA. She's the most gentle, stable animal I've ever owned, and we get constant comments from people about how they'd gladly own a dog if they knew it would be as great as her. We get asked all the time what kind of breed she is, as people would love to buy one. Alas, even the vets have no clue what breeds comprise her. lol. I can't imagine making it impossible for good dogs ilke her to be born.