It would seem to me that actually getting those statistics might be a problem. The church has been proven in court, time and time again, to have hidden their pedophiles. Not only that but I think the number of people that have been molested by the average priest pedo might be higher, due mainly to their opportunities, than your average male. Making a blanket statement that all men abuse at the same rates is not responsible.
Are Mormons Christians?
- Thread starter Liberalman
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It would seem to me that actually getting those statistics might be a problem. The church has been proven in court, time and time again, to have hidden their pedophiles. Not only that but I think the number of people that have been molested by the average priest pedo might be higher, due mainly to their opportunities, than your average male. Making a blanket statement that all men abuse at the same rates is not responsible.
Abuse occurs throughout humanity at stable rates. Positions of power attract predators, but, unfortunately, all of humanity has positions of power littered throghout it. It's not 'men' either btw... it's humans.
What for?
yes, it was a very responsible statement. There is nothing in there that is misleading or wrong.
Okay, sure. I think it's unlikely that the rates are as stable as you suggest or that the means of determining the rates are easy enough to achieve an accurate result. That seems like a generality that is likely misleading to suggest that the rates are stable and then bring up how positions of power attract predators when the example you gave was a married man and a priest having the same rate of pedophilia. Are all men in positions of power? Which one of your statements is false if the answer is no? It can't be possible for both to be true, either there are more pedophiles than average in positions of power or there aren't.
lol... do your own research if you don't believe me.
hint.... being in a position of power doesn't usually preclude one from being married. Thus the stats are pretty stable across all groups.
My point is that it is not possible to do the research and get an accurate result. What does your research state? Is it a record of who is charged? a record of who has been convicted? does it asusme that a certain percentage of pedophiles are not caught? does it take into account that it might be easier to be caught or more difficult to be caught depending on your position in relation to the victim or that the catholic church is KNOWN to have mislead authorities and hidden known pedophiles? It's not as simple as saying, "a statistic told me so."
By that logic it's impossible for you to be right either... I simply go by what psychology research has shown.
I agree with you. here's the problem. You stated that married men have the same stable rate of abuse that priests have. I think we can both agree that being a priest puts one in a position of power. So if they have the same rate of abuse it's fair to assume based on what you've said that all men are in a position of power. If not, then th epercentage would be lower wouldn't it?
So..... either the rates are not the same or your statement about pedophiles being attracted to positions of power is wrong? It is not possible for both to be true.
It's not possible for me to be right because it's not my intent, hence me not speaking in absolutes as you have.
I understand that you are going by some sort of research. I have questioned the validity and methods of said research and the logical inconsistencies in your argument when you suggest that pedophiles are attracted to positions of power (which I'm inclined ot agree with) and that the rates are stable across society (which I am inclined not to agree with)
I am curious as to how they came ot that conclusion and how you seem to think it's an absolute fact.
I have actually, but that's a whole other issue, lol
Here's where you current argument falls off base though. A) you didn't say fathers, you said husbands (maried men). B) There are plenty of fathers that are fathers through no intent of their own, just irresponsibility. There are no such priests.
I believe what I say for a few reasons.
1. I know many, many women who've been raped and molested. None of them by priests.
2. Being married doesn't cure pedophilia, if it did, better than 50% of those women would not be abuse victims.
3. psychology research. yeah, you may not approve of the methods but, published peer reviewed journal articles mean more to me than your objections to what I've read
4. faith in men that being abstinent does NOT turn someone into a pedophile. If it did, every mother on this planet would screw her husband twice a day like it was a religion.
5. the knowledge that humanity has NEVER, EVER, found a way of life that was safe from crime or abuse. EVER.
I don't come by my view willy nilly. I read, I research. Few issues have struck my avid interest quite like the issue of pedophilia, its causes, how to prevent it, what to look for, and what NOT to assume is safe.
My comment regarding married men was that being married men wouldn't change the rate of pedophilia in the church, because being married does NOT cure pedophilia. The rates of pedophilia are populationally stable from every scrap of research I've ever seen. Being married is not a pedophilia cure.
I understand where you are coming from. I'm not denying that abuse exists across all segments of society either. It certainly does. I'm simply pointing out your errors in your argument.
You claimed that married men and priests have the same rate of pedophilia. You have surmised that priesthood is a position of power. You have stated that pedophiles are attracted to positions of power. so....... logic dictates that either a) being married is a position of power or b) you're wrong about either the rates or the statement about pdophiles being attracted to positions of power.
No amount of emotion and self righteousness on your part can change the fact that you have a problem in your argument.
It's perfectly possible for them to have the same rates of pedophilia, because if you look at the criminal profile of a pedophile, they tend to be less educated, and of lower iq. Factor that into the fact that the priesthood screens for them, that the priesthood requires a higher level of study and education, and it all evens out in the wash. Crime finds a way to spread itself pretty evenly, even when it comes to pedophilia and marriage.
I agree with much of this. Especially the first part. I am not suggesting that marriage is a cure though or that it would change anything with Priest's. What I am saying is that the spectrum of husbands in the world is certainly broader than all of them being in a position of power, whereas the spectrum of priests out there isn't. So, it stands to reason that the rates whould be different otherwise it's not true that pedophiles are attracted to positions of power.
This actually makes sense to me. My construction of your argument was incomplete, and the other factors in pedophilia, aside from wanting to be in a position of power, were not taken into consideration by me. I was wrong.
Did anyone say or suggest that if a man marries he will stop being a pedophile? I ask the question seriously because I don't understand the point to that statment unless someone suggested it. I suggested that there was a possibility that less pedophiles would be attracted to the priesthood if priests were allowed to get married but I certainly never ever suggested that men would stop being a pedophile because they got married. The whole idea is ludicrous.