Angry Chirac leaves summit as Frenchman speaks English.

[Machjo]

quote="Wednesday's Child"Musing on the language of France

I remember a few years back when they insisted all computer "new words" be revamped into French - when of course they were all being born in English.

The Accademie Francaise probably has established a francisized word for all of these new words. It's not an urban myth. The Accademie Francaise does exist, it's on-line, and does in fact take an active part in the development of the French language.

I wonder if the French change all the new lingo coming from all countries - adapted to the new scientific inventions and breakthroughs which have been accomplished....if there is a specific French word for all of them, or if the French have bowed down to the word as it was originally given out.

I don't know about all the lingo, but definitely a large amount of it. Usually words of deeper cultural, religious or historical significance, or slang will keep the original (kamikaze, wasabe, kaput, capiche, Allah, etc.), but practically anything scientific or techincal is francisized based on a priory roots from the French language.

How do the French describe AIDS or HIV or Killer African Bees or the latest Equine and Bovine maladies.... is that why achronyms are used to often now? International acronyms???

AIDS is SIDA, HIV is VIH. Again, anything techincal is francisized.

Is "stem cell" a French expression for example or is there a mangled befuddled new word translated to satisfy the French isolationism?

Anything techincal is francisised.


Seems silly when our world is absolutely shrinking before our eyes that we still continue to throw up roadblocks - within our everyday languages - to keep from being "tainted" by others..... who may just have a better idea too!

Actually, this isn't a roadblock, but a help. Immagine, for instance, that instead pegagogical cybernetics, English used the german "Uebungskibernetische". Which English-speaker would even be able to understand this gibberish? The same goes for French. If too many English words enter the language, it just becomes that more difficult to master with all the exceptions. Perhaps one reason Chinese who learn French seem to learn it better than their Englsih counterparts; English just has too many words when using traditional English roots would suffice.

Maybe one day we will all be communicating through Babblefish - but you have to have a great sense of humor using that feature!

I've used Babblefish, but it only works to assist in translation, but you still need to know the language yourself in the end. It's useless and always will be. After all, no matter how advanced a computer is, how will it know if by "gay" you mean cigarette or "homosexual"? How will it know if by elevator you mean lift, grain elevator or wing-tip elevator? Same with grain, billion, etc. That's funny (strange or humorous?). It smells fishy (literally or as an expression?) Believe me, computers will never be able to translate. And even if we could program every variable, it would take so long that by the time it was finished, the language would already have changed yet again! it would be an extremely expensive yearly process to upgrade all the changes in every dialect of every language yearly! If a Chinese calls you a comrade, should Babblefish translate it at surface meaning? Maybe he means you're gay. Human language is and will ever be too complicated for machines.

 

[Machjo]

Re: RE: Angry Chirac leaves summit as Frenchman speaks Engli

quote="cortez"english is nightmare to learn
phonetically its completely chaotic
it always blows me away when native english speakers refer to english as logical ,simple easy to learn and hence is somehow intrisically superior to others

Agreed

if you are non english speaker you simply cannot look at a text and know how a word is supposed to be pronounced-- unless youve heard it before-- in the same way that the chineese have to remember 1000s of symbols -- so do english speakers--- but phonetically-- native english speakers are generally unaware of this

i agree with some of the posters up there
scrap it as an international language

Agreed.

ENGLISH is also the international language of illegal warfare

Huh? I might agree depending on what you mean; but I'd need more elaboration from you there.

i think learning english predisposes one to engage in and condone large scale -- organized violence

Now this is out to luch.

i also think learning english as a mother tongue actually impedes your ability to learn any other language -- just becuase of the shear neuronal expense required to hard wire such a
messed up code---

Open to interpretation.

native english speakers ---tend not to learn other languages for at least 2 reasons
1-- they dont want to make the effort ie arrogance

True. Why should Anglos waste their hard-=earned money learning a foreign language while the rest of the world is spending theirs to learn English? But ther is a minor detail here; who's forcing them to learn English? It's not the Anglos. So if anything, we have the rest of the world, not the Anglos, to blame for this one. The Anglos are just being pragmatic here.

2--- They simply CANT do it

That's a load of croc. I know of at least one language which could be learnt to fluency in fewer than 100 hours of self-study by the average Anglo. And from what I've ready, there might be more such languages to choose from as well. The onus for change here is not with the Anglos, but ratehr the rest of the world. So you can't blame the Anglos here; why should they waste their time learning another language when everyone else is striving to elarn English?

 

[Machjo]

Re: RE: Angry Chirac leaves summit as Frenchman speaks Engli

Awhy should any one NEED two languages. It is a complete waste of time and serves no purpose but to retard communication and thinking ability. Why would a parent want to harm their child by having them learn French when it is a redundant ability they can do without.

If English were so easy to learn, and thus the whole world were already fluent in it, then I could agree with you. The reality, however, is that an estimated 25% of the world's population can speak it to varying degrees of competence (this could include tourist Englsih and Tok Pissin too), of which10% of the world's population truly has native-like competence in it. So if you want to communicate with more people, it pays to learn a second language. Also if you believe in justice, an auxlang would be useful too. And as for harming a child, could you lend me some of whatever it is that you're smoking.

Let you kid take music or some other more worth while talent they can enjoy their whole lives. Extra languages will be only good for archaeology in 50 years.

Teh native-Englsih-speaking population is shrinking worldwide, and the persentace of fluent speakers is dropping in the US alone as some towns go Spanish.

The only think keeping French in Canada is the Civil Service to keep newer immigrants out of the higher public jobs by creating a bearier to entry called bilingualism.

Perhaps, true to a very limited degree and grossly exaggerated (again the wakky tabaccy effect), but this again shows you're complete lack of understanding of the cultural and ethnic dimensions of language. No worries, your species will be extinct soon enough.

 

[iamcanadian]

Re: RE: Angry Chirac leaves summit as Frenchman speaks Engli

The only think keeping French in Canada is the Civil Service to keep newer immigrants out of the higher public jobs by creating a bearier to entry called bilingualism.

Perhaps, true to a very limited degree and grossly exaggerated (again the wakky tabaccy effect), but this again shows you're complete lack of understanding of the cultural and ethnic dimensions of language.

You are getting warmer at exposing the truth which is that the French Canadian Isolationism is exactly the same thing that was going on in the Southern States in the 50's and 60's with their Blacks.

Only in Canada it is the French Canadians that are the KKK, Red Neck Biggots going against all Non-French Canadians. It is nothing more than that "simple racism" by the French Canadians against all other ethinic groups and cultures to avoid being contaminated culturally.

You then have organizations like Le Conseil Scolaire du District du Centre Sud Ouest (Ontario) http://www.csdcso.on.ca defrauding the Ontario Government (and Ontario Taxpayers) of millions of dollars to feed their French Separatist netwroks in Quebec; which act similar to the KKK in their approaches to dealing with Non-French Canadian Taxpayers of Ontario that fund their public schools.

They take money that is there for all Ontario children and spend it only on themselves with schools sized for twice the number of students they hold and bussing kids fifty miles or more to congregate like some underground religious sect away from the general population they fear will contaminate their kind.

 

[Machjo]

Re: RE: Angry Chirac leaves summit as Frenchman speaks Engli

quote="iamcanadian"

The only think keeping French in Canada is the Civil Service to keep newer immigrants out of the higher public jobs by creating a bearier to entry called bilingualism.

Perhaps, true to a very limited degree and grossly exaggerated (again the wakky tabaccy effect), but this again shows you're complete lack of understanding of the cultural and ethnic dimensions of language.

You are getting warmer at exposing the truth which is that the French Canadian Isolationism is exactly the same thing that was going on in the Southern States in the 50's and 60's with their Blacks.

Gross exaggeration! I agree that Bill 101 is unfair, but to compare it to the Southern States' discrimination against blacks shows that you don't know much about the subject; English Canadians in Quebec have a lot more freedom , in fact, than their French Canadian compatriots in otehr provinces due to the spread of English in certain parts of their province. Bill 101 is an attempt to counterbalance that, wuite simply. And even with Bill 101, An English Canadian could still find a job more easily in Montreal without even knowing French than a French Canadian could in Toronto without knowing English.

I don't agree with Bill 101, but then again I see the ignorance of the situation among people like yourself as major contributing factors to it. Instead of wasting your time insulting French Canadians, why not actually use that brain to think of an alternative solution. Let's look at it this way:

1. Englsih Canadians think of language equality in the legal sence (i.e., both languages equal before the law).

2. French Canadians think of language equality in the de facto sence (i.e. English and French Canadians can find jobs just as easily.

Then we can understand the dynamics a little better. Bill 101 gives French a special status as an attempt to counterbalance the de facto power of English. Englsih Canadians view it as discriminatory since it does not provide de jure equality.

Solution? Logically the only solution would be one which allows for de jure and de facto equality simultaneously. While there might be myriad solutions to this, I'll just present one example:

Let's say Canada adopted an easy-to-learn official auxiliary language to be taught in schools nationwide as a second language. This would thus mean that French and Englsih would have de jure equality (which is what English Canadians want) since neither French nor English would be officially recognised any more, thus equally unrecognised in law. And they'd also have de facto equality (any individual who needs to communicate with the other language group will need to know the auxiliary language, meaning that English speakers must put in an equal effort to learn the language as do the French speakers, thus putting them on an equal footing that way too). So instead of insulting, try to use your noggin and find a solution which would be just for both sides, rather than just expecting the whole world to learn your language.

Only in Canada it is the French Canadians that are the KKK, Red Neck Biggots going against all Non-French Canadians. It is nothing more than that "simple racism" by the French Canadians against all other ethinic groups and cultures to avoid being contaminated culturally.

Wht have you been sniffing?

You then have organizations like Le Conseil Scolaire du District du Centre Sud Ouest (Ontario) http://www.csdcso.on.ca defrauding the Ontario Government (and Ontario Taxpayers) of millions of dollars to feed their French Separatist netwroks in Quebec; which act similar to the KKK in their approaches to dealing with Non-French Canadian Taxpayers of Ontario that fund their public schools.

Oh, and they represent every single French speaker worldwide? What about the KKK? Do they represent all whites too?

They take money that is there for all Ontario children and spend it only on themselves with schools sized for twice the number of students they hold and bussing kids fifty miles or more to congregate like some underground religious sect away from the general population they fear will contaminate their kind.

You really have some hatred there for non-anglos don't you. I agree that the current laws are unwise, but to blow things out of proportion like that suggests ill-will.

 

[Curiosity]

Machjo

This is an interesting thread to keep visiting - and you are an expert who can open our minds to options and new thought - thanks for all your hard work here.

You wrote in one of your rebuttals to Cortez:

That's a load of croc. I know of at least one language which could be learnt to fluency in fewer than 100 hours of self-study by the average Anglo. And from what I've ready, there might be more such languages to choose from as well. The onus for change here is not with the Anglos, but ratehr the rest of the world. So you can't blame the Anglos here; why should they waste their time learning another language when everyone else is striving to elarn English?

If there is an "onus for change" and "everyone else is striving to learn English" (which is admittedly flawed as an easy language) - why not let English evolve as it has already and is constantly morphing to suit current populations who use it.

Eventually the "lady of the night" English - will be and can be anything we want her to be - she is adept at becoming one with the people rather than French concept of isolating and nurturing their native tongue - a tongue which is a demanding mistress because so few adopt it and those who do are merely acting out self-aggrandizement rather than honest communication.

Note I would still love to be sitting in a group of people talking Babblefish with each other to see how much discomfort breaks out over misinterpretation. OR conversely: how people could actually say what they are thinking (as we do on forums) without the restriction of social mores.

Isn't this strange as adults we are stymied by learning a new language when little ones learn basic language skills before they are one year old. Why not two basic language skills - within the home. Sounds like something which could be accomplished easily if it became popular and accepted as an early "rite of passage".

Of course the question then becomes: What second language would they choose? And for what reason? And would any government wish to have a say in mandating which second language it would be?

 

[Machjo]

Excellent essay here:

http://www.toda.org/Default.aspx?PageID=292

 

[aeon]

Re: RE: Angry Chirac leaves summit as Frenchman speaks Engli

You are getting warmer at exposing the truth which is that the French Canadian Isolationism is exactly the same thing that was going on in the Southern States in the 50's and 60's with their Blacks.

Only in Canada it is the French Canadians that are the KKK, Red Neck Biggots going against all Non-French Canadians. It is nothing more than that "simple racism" by the French Canadians against all other ethinic groups and cultures to avoid being contaminated culturally.

You then have organizations like Le Conseil Scolaire du District du Centre Sud Ouest (Ontario) http://www.csdcso.on.ca defrauding the Ontario Government (and Ontario Taxpayers) of millions of dollars to feed their French Separatist netwroks in Quebec; which act similar to the KKK in their approaches to dealing with Non-French Canadian Taxpayers of Ontario that fund their public schools.

They take money that is there for all Ontario children and spend it only on themselves with schools sized for twice the number of students they hold and bussing kids fifty miles or more to congregate like some underground religious sect away from the general population they fear will contaminate their kind.

You are just a moron, total strawberry crap, all i can tell you you can spew your hatred towards the french and saying quebecers are the KKK of canada, that just proved how stupid and retarded you are.


We are the only place in canada, where people are really bylingual, actually the quebecers are the real canadians, cause whatever you like it or not, being a canadian, means bylingual, which you and many arent.


The equivalent of KKK is in alberta, where you feel to be in south texas, same mentality, same kind of rules, same kind of business.I go to calgary very often, and this is what i feel about calgary. When the war in iraq started,i was there in calgary, people were with the american flags on their cars, here in quebec, we were protesting against the war, actually quebec was 80% against the war, the only place in canada, where we were really against the war, that is why the liberal didnt support the war, cause they knew if they do, separatist movement would have been higher.


NOW YOU CAN THANK US TO HAVE AVOID THIS STUPID WAR,ENGAGED BY RACIST RETARDS.


Again we are the first in canada, to have accepted gay, montreal is a multicultural city, where half of the people speaks english, and the other half french, the only and only city in canada, actually we are the most open minded province in canada.Come here and speak english, everyone will speak or try your language, but that isnt the same when we go in calgary, or anywhere else, you speak french, and people look at you, like you are an alien, most of the canadians, cant even say a little sentence in french, so next time you spew your stupidity, think about it twice.

 

[Curiosity]

Re: RE: Angry Chirac leaves summit as Frenchman speaks Engli

Excellent essay here:

http://www.toda.org/Default.aspx?PageID=292

Machjo

I am lying under my desk right now....that was like lobbing a bomb at my nosy self so early in the morning - but I started to read it and could hardly stop - even though the world beckons me and work calls.... I arrived at 3.3 - Multilingualism and Multiculturalism and had to stop stop stop..... what a wow of an essay.

Will return....later....and thanks a bunch. Indeed we have a knowledgeable expert hanging in here on the topic in you....and this link is a fantastic take on what I have been muddling around with...

Seems odd however coming from a Japanese - a nation which originally believed in singularity of race and speech.

Later! WC 8)

 

[JoeyB]

RE: Angry Chirac leaves s

It just says to me, the French are a bunch of Crazy mofo's.

so every time you meet a crazy in the street, you should ask them if they're French. if the response is a Yes (or oui) then you know theyre Crazy ... step sideways and look at them strange

Yes crazy mofo's they may be, but it's still a beautiful language.

 

[Curiosity]

Joey

Amazing how the language of "cuss and insult" is international.... most people know all the words and say them in whatever language they learned them in the first place...usually "english"...

Haha...mofo is indeed international!

Now back to this interesting Japanese person....

 

[Machjo]

It's interesting to note that a few religions also have specific policies in relaiton to language.

I don't know much about Oomoto (a Japanese religion or branch of one I'm not sure) but I know they are very supportive of Esperanto:
http://www.oomoto.or.jp/

As is ŭonbulismo (a Korean branch of Buddhism if I'm not mystaken):
http://www.uonbulismo.net/

but you'll also find mainstream Buddhist support here:
http://www.ebudhano.cn/ (PRC)
and
http://esperanto.us/budhana.html (Internaitonal, but based in the USA)
and
http://www001.upp.so-net.ne.jp/jble/budhismo.html (Japan)

Christian:
www.chez.com/keli/

Baha'i:

http://www.bahai.de/bahaaeligo

Teh Baha'i sacred texts are particularly fascinating on the subject in that they are considered authoritative. Here is but a sample of those:

The day is approaching when all the peoples of the world will have adopted one universal language and one common script. When this is achieved, to whatsoever city a man may journey, it shall be as if he were entering his own home… That one indeed is a man who, today, dedicateth himself to the service of the entire human race… It is not for him to pride himself who loveth his own country, but rather for him who loveth the whole world. The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens.
Bahá’u’lláh (Lawh-i-Maqsúd)
It behoveth the sovereigns of the world… or the ministers of the earth to take counsel together to adopt one of the existing languages or a new one to be taught children in schools throughout the world. Thus the whole earth will come to be regarded as one country.
Bahá’u’lláh (Bishárát)

The Sixth Ishráq (Effulgence) is Concord and Union amongst men. Through the radiance of Union have the regions of the world at all times been illumined, and the greatest of all means thereunto is the understanding of one another's writing and speech. Ere this, in Our Epistles, have We commanded the Trustees of the House of Justice, either to choose one of the existing tongues, or to originate a new one, and in like manner to adopt a common script, teaching these to the children in all the schools of the world, that the world may become even as one land and one home.
Bahá’u’lláh (Ishráqát)

O members of parliaments throughout the world! Select ye a single language for the use of all on earth, and adopt ye likewise a common script. God, verily, maketh plain for you that which shall profit you and enable you to be independent of others. He, of a truth, is the Most Bountiful, the All-knowing, the All-Informed. This will be the cause of unity, could ye but comprehend it, and the greatest instrument for promoting harmony and civilization, would that ye might understand!
Bahá’u’lláh (Kitáb-i-Aqdas)



And among the teachings of Bahá’u’lláh is the origination of one language that may be spread universally among the people. This teaching was revealed from the pen of Bahá’u’lláh in order that this universal language may eliminate misunderstandings from among mankind.
’Abdu’l-Bahá (Tablet to the Central Organization for a Durable Peace, The Hague)

But regarding the universal language: Ere long significant and scientific discussions concerning this matter will arise among the people of discernment and insight and it will produce the desired result.
’Abdu’l-Bahá (Tablets of ’Abdu’l-Bahá Abbás, Volume 3, p. 596)

Thou hast written regarding the language of Esperanto. This language will be spread and universalized to a certain degree, but later on a language more complete than this, or the same language will undergo some changes and alterations and will be adopted and become universal. I hope that Dr. Zamenhof become assisted by the invisible confirmation and do a great service to the world of humanity.
’Abdu’l-Bahá (Tablets of ’Abdu’l-Bahá Abbás, vo. 3, p. 692)

In order to facilitate complete understanding between all people, a universal auxiliary language will be adopted and in the schools of the future two languages will be taught - the mother tongue and this international auxiliary tongue which will be either one of the existing languages, or a new language made up of words from all the languages - the matter to be determined by a confederation met for the purpose which shall represent all tribes and nations. This international tongue will be used in the parliament of man - a supreme tribunal of the world which will be permanently established in order to arbitrate international questions.
’Abdu’l-Bahá on Divine Philosophy, p 84

Today one of the chief causes of the differences in Europe is the diversity of languages. We say this man is a German, the other is an Italian, then we meet an Englishman and then again a Frenchman. Although they belong to the same race, yet language is the greatest barrier between them. Were a universal auxiliary language in operation they would all be considered as one.
His Holiness Bahá'u'lláh wrote about this international language more than forty years ago. He says that as long as an international language is not adopted, complete union between the various sections of the world will be unrealized, for we observe that misunderstandings keep people from mutual association, and these misunderstandings will not be dispelled except through an international auxiliary language.
Generally speaking, the whole people of the Orient are not fully informed of events in the West, neither can the Westerners put themselves in sympathetic touch with the Easterners; their thoughts are enclosed in a casket-- the international language will be the master key to open it. Were we in possession of a universal language, the Western books could easily be translated into that language, and the Eastern peoples be informed of their contents. In the same way the books of the East could be translated into that language for the benefit of the people in the West. The greatest means of progress towards the union of East and West will be a common language. It will make the whole world one home and become the strongest impulse for human advancement. It will upraise the standard of the oneness of humanity. It will make the earth one universal commonwealth. It will be the cause of love between the children of men. It will cause good fellowship between the various races.
Now, praise be to God that Dr. Zamenhof has invented the Esperanto language. It has all the potential qualities of becoming the international means of communication. All of us must be grateful and thankful to him for this noble effort; for in this way he has served his fellowmen well. With untiring effort and self-sacrifice on the part of its devotees Esperanto will become universal. Therefore every one of us must study this language and spread it as far as possible so that day by day it may receive a broader recognition, be accepted by all nations and governments of the world, and become a part of the curriculum in all the public schools. I hope that Esperanto will be adopted as the language of all the future international conferences and congresses, so that all people need acquire only two languages -- one their own tongue and the other the international language. Then perfect union will be established between all the people of the world. Consider how difficult it is today to communicate with various nations. If one studies fifty languages one may yet travel through a country and not know the language. Therefore I hope that you will make the utmost effort, so that this language of Esperanto may be widely spread.
’Abdu’l-Bahá (Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era, Chapter 10, pp.164-165)

The love and effort put into Esperanto will not be lost, but no one person can construct a Universal Language.
’Abdu’l-Bahá (’Abdu’l-Bahá in London, p. 95)

One of the great steps towards universal peace would be the establishment of a universal language. Bahá’u’lláh commands that the servants of humanity should meet together, and either choose a language which now exists, or form a new one. This was revealed in the Kitáb-i-Aqdas forty years ago. It is there pointed out that the question of diversity of tongues is a very difficult one. There are more than eight hundred languages in the world, and no person could acquire them all.
The races of mankind are not isolated as in former days. Now, in order to be in close relationship with all countries it is necessary to be able to speak their tongues.
A universal language would make intercourse possible with every nation. Thus it would be needful to know two languages only, the mother tongue and the universal speech. The latter would enable a man to communicate with any and every man in the world!
A third language would not be needed. To be able to talk with a member of any race and country without requiring an interpreter, how helpful and restful to all!
Esperanto has been drawn up with this end in view: it is a fine invention and a splendid piece of work, but it needs perfecting. Esperanto as it stands is very difficult for some people.
An international Congress should be formed, consisting of delegates from every nation in the world, Eastern as well as Western. This Congress should form a language that could be acquired by all, and every country would thereby reap great benefit.
Until such a language is in use, the world will continue to feel the vast need of this means of intercourse. Difference of speech is one of the most fruitful causes of dislike and distrust that exists between nations, which are kept apart by their inability to understand each other's language more than by any other reason.
If everybody could speak one language, how much more easy would it be to serve humanity!
Therefore appreciate `Esperanto', for it is the beginning of the carrying out of one of the most important of the Laws of Bahá'u'lláh, and it must continue to be improved and perfected.
’Abdu’l-Bahá
(Paris Talks,PART II, THE EIGHTH PRINCIPLE UNIVERSAL PEACE)
4 Avenue de Camöens, Paris

We feel that, within the framework of their efforts for the promotion of peace, the Bahá'ís of Europe would do well to increase their collaboration with the Esperanto Movement, and we encourage Bahá'ís who feel the urge to assist in this area, to learn Esperanto and take an active part in the activities of the Movement. As you know, although both 'Abdu'l-Bahá and Shoghi Effendi have made it clear that it is by no means certain that Esperanto will be chosen as the international auxiliary language of the world, 'Abdu'l-Bahá encouraged the friends in the east and the west to learn it as a practical step in the promotion of the concept of the adoption of an international auxiliary language to break down the barriers to understanding between peoples.
Universal House of Justice 17 September 1986 letter to NSAs in Europe

 

[darkbeaver]

RE: Angry Chirac leaves s

Fruit flies like an apple, time flys like an arrow.

 

[Curiosity]

Machjo

Well I finished it - absorbed about 1/3 of it - because there is sooooooooooo much to absorb. It is a great read an opens all kinds of thought....kinda like what I have been trying to muddle
through in my "gauzy" way of thinking.

My only personal objection to anything he writes is his use of "Hegemony". I find that a tad biased and grumpy. That of course is merely my own reaction because English is my language of birth and would probably not blip reading it were I Italian or
German.

The definition of hegemony "dominant influence of one state over others"; "rule"; "authority"; "leader"; is missing something I believe English speaking people have - and that is the desire to uplift groups without the use of words under the "hegemony" descriptive. It is way too negative to be honest for there is much positive in the helping hand English speaking nations have given to the world. They explored, created chaos, chreated wars, have risen to economic wealth and are now assisting other nations reach their potential as well.

Hegemony sounds too "nazi" for me. Actually sounds like Imperial Japanese as well. Itte mairimasu !

Enough criticism....I am gonna copy it out and have more reads...there's lots to digest. Thank you so much for sharing the link.

 

[Machjo]

And for some official documents:

The following official decree form the Italian Milistry of Public Instruction:
http://www.bowks.net/worldlang/aux/b_MinPubInst.html

Worth a read. Though it's an official document, the style is by no means boring; there's a whole section on the history of the planned language movement going back to the 17th century, how the French stopped the adoption of Esperanto in the League of Nations, and how Esperanto has been growing in Europe. Really fascinating.

The following UNESCo resolution is more boring a read, short and written almost in point form. But might be interesting none-the-less:

http://e.euroscola.free.fr/unesco-fr.htm

 

[Curiosity]

Machjo

You are a walking library! Lots to read here.

 

[Machjo]

quote="Wednesday's Child"Machjo

Well I finished it - absorbed about 1/3 of it - because there is sooooooooooo much to absorb. It is a great read an opens all kinds of thought....kinda like what I have been trying to muddle
through in my "gauzy" way of thinking.

It is quite shocking, isn't it? Now here's the strange thing, though. Being a native speaker of French and English, a native-like speaker of Esperanto, having lived in China for awhile, studying Chinese, Arabic and Persian, teaching and translating, I've been exposed to this viewpoint since childhood! For me it's normal, like the air I breathe. But now here's what's more shocking. I've met plenty of French Canadians, Chinese and others for whom it is equally normal.

As for "hegemony", don't take it personally; it's not a criticism of the English language per se, but rather strictly the unfair advantage it gives its native speakers on the world stage, which naturally leads to hard feelings, jealousy and resentment. It doesn't suggest a hatred for Anglos per se, nor any comparison to Nazism. It doesn't even necessarily blame the Anglos for this hegemony.

Who's fault is it? Well, those ancestors who decided to very liberally take some land for themselves during the age of empires are the ones who started it. And those foreigners who are just trying to stay afloat rather than looking at the long term are feedin it. The Anglos of today have nothing to do with it. But one can understand that when foreigners talk about trying to change the situation to promote a neutral language, and a native speaker gets all offended about it saying "Let's just get over it and accept it already!", they won't take it very lightly since the current situation is obviously unfair and here's this person suggesting that we maintain it!

For instance, while I and other foreigners here in china come across this regularly, I find that my straightforward acknowledgement that I do indeed have an unfair advantage due to my native language and my sincere desire to promote a more just system through some kind of Auxiliary Language actually helps me to establish much more open relationships than have otehr foreigners who get offended whenever a Chinese mentions that it seems so unfair that Englsih speakers have this birthright in the world that others don't. After all, they're not saying that I personally am evil, or that they hate my language per se. They're merely asking that their language be equal with mine. Is that an attack on my language? Is that not a reasonable request?

So please, don't take the word hegemony too personally. Just take it at face value without reading thisngs between the lines that aren't there.

My only personal objection to anything he writes is his use of "Hegemony". I find that a tad biased and grumpy. That of course is merely my own reaction because English is my language of birth and would probably not blip reading it were I Italian or
German.

I guess that's understandable if this is the first tiem you've ever come across this. Again, it's not that the rest of the world dislikes the Englsih language per se; they're just looking for a more just society with English not being outright suppressed, but merely equal.

The definition of hegemony "dominant influence of one state over others"; "rule"; "authority"; "leader"; is missing something I believe English speaking people have - and that is the desire to uplift groups without the use of words under the "hegemony" descriptive. It is way too negative to be honest for there is much positive in the helping hand English speaking nations have given to the world. They explored, created chaos, chreated wars, have risen to economic wealth and are now assisting other nations reach their potential as well.

There is truth to what you say. but they must still learn our language before being able to receive this help. And that costs their nations mucho money. Not to mention that our universities, teachers, professors, book publishers etc. make much money on their buying our language products. So we're helping them with their money to some extent. On the other hand, some of them feel trapped; they don't see any otehr option but to slave a way at English for ten years of their lives just to be able to have access to the most rudimentary level of the language. Emotionally frustrating indeed as theyr strive so hard for the American dream.

Hegemony sounds too "nazi" for me. Actually sounds like Imperial Japanese as well. Itte mairimasu !

Again, hegemony is a neutral term. We can argue that there is French hegemony over the indigenous languages in Quebec likewise. I'm a native speaker of English and French. It's nothing personal; it's just fact. And the indigenous languages of North America are suffering due to teh hegemonic influences of Englsih, French adn Spanish on the North American continent. And that leads naturally to ethnic conflict between the groups too.

Enough criticism....I am gonna copy it out and have more reads...there's lots to digest. Thank you so much for sharing the link.

pleasure.

 

[Machjo]

More food for thought. Various quotes for and agianst English and Esperanto or universal language in general from the Bible to today.

Again, please don't take it offensively; it's not an attack against Englsih per se, but rather injustice. This could apply to any language of course. Once you're exposed to this injustice head on in foreign travels, it becomes a palpable day to day reality (literally day to day, no exaggeration or hyperbole here).

Six years ago I received an Esperanto grammar, vocabulary, and articles written in the language. After not more than two hours' study I was able, if not to write the language, at any rate to read it freely.... I have often noted how men are brought into unfriendly relations merely through material hindrance to mutual comprehension. The learning and spreading of Esperanto is therefore undoubtedly a Christian movement, helping to create the Kingdom of God, which is the chief and only aim of human life.
Leo Tolstoy

In our meeting there are no strong or weak nations, privileged or unfavoured ones, nobody is humiliated, nobody is harassed; we all support one another upon a neutral foundation, we all have the same rights, we all feel ourselves the members of the same nation, like the members of the same family, and for the first time in the history of human race, we -the members of different peoples- are one beside the other not as strangers, not like competitors, but like brothers who do not enforce their language, but who understand one another, trustfully, conceitedly, and we shake our hands with no hypocrisy like strangers, but sincerely, like people. Let's be fully aware of all the importance of this day, because today among the generous walls of Bologne-sur-Mer have met not French wtih British, nor Russians with Polish, but people with people.
L. L. Zamenhof (1905)
We are not so naive as some think of us; we do not believe that a neutral base will turn men into angels, but we do know that evil people will always be evil; but we believe that communication and knowledge based upon a natural tool will prevent at least the great quantity of brutality and crimes which happen not because of ill will, but simply because of lack of knowledge and oppression.
L. L. Zamenhof (1906)





The Chinese language is very different from Western languages. However, it is essential for China, at this point in its history, to establish communication with other countries so that it can learn from them. In order for that to happen, China needs an auxiliary language and Esperanto is the most suitable. If may Chinese knew Esperanto, then any foreigner wishing to come to China would only need to learn that language. And that would increase the number of Esperantists in the world and help to propagate the language, as is our duty...It is much harder for Chinese people to learn other languages than it is for Westerners. However, once we have learned one European language, then we are no different from a Westerner who wishes to learn another language. If that first language we learn is Esperanto, it will definitely help us to learn other European languages.
Cai Yuan Pei


And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech.
And it came to pass, as they journeyed from the east, that they found a plain in the land of Shinar; and they dwelt there.
And they said one to another, Go to, let us make brick, and burn them thoroughly. And they had brick for stone, and slime had they for morter
And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.
And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded.
And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.
Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.
So the LORD scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city.
Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because the LORD did there confound the language of all the earth: and from thence did the LORD scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth.
Genesis 11:1-9

For then will I turn to the people a pure language, that they may all call upon the name of the LORD, to serve him with one consent.
Zephaniah 3:9


And who in time knows whither we may vent
The treasures of our tongue, to what strange shores
This gain of our best glory shall be sent,
To enrich unknowing nations without stores?
Which worlds in the yet unformed Occident
May come refined with the accents that are ours.
Samuel Daniel (Musophilis) (1599)

I have undertaken to write a grammar of English because there is clearly a great demand for it from foreigners, who want to be able to understand the various important works which are written in our tongue… All kinds of literature are widely available in English editions, and, without boasting, it can be said that there is scarcely any worthwhile body of knowledge which has not been recorded today, adequately at least, in the English language.
John Wallis (Grammar of the English Language) (1765)

If many schools were established in different parts of Asia and Africa to instruct the natives, free of all expense, with various premiums [prises] of British manufacture to the most meritorious pupils, this would be the best preparatory step that Englishmen could adopt for the general admission of their commerce, their opinions, their religion. This would tend to conquer the heart and its affections; which is a far more effectual conquest than that obtained by swords and cannons: and a thousand pounds expended for tutors, books, and premiums would do more to subdue a nation of savages than forty thousand expended for artillerymen, bullets, and gunpowder.
William Russel in 1801

To give millions a knowledge of English is to enslave them… Is it not a painful thing that, if I want to go to a court of justice, I must employ the English language as a medium; that, when I became a barrister, I may not speak my mother-tongue, and that someone else should have to traslate to me from my own language? Is it not absolutely absurd? Is it not a sign of slavery?
Mahatma Gandhi (1808)

It is evident to all those who have devoted any portion of attention to the subject, that the English language would, if proper care were devoted to its advancement, stand an excellent chance of becoming more universally diffused, read and spoken, than any other now its, or even has been. In Europe, the study of it seems to be gradually spreading. In Germany, Russia, and Scandinavia it is esteemed as essential, in France a highly useful, branch of education; in Africa it is gradually superseding the Dutch, and becoming the medium of valuable information. In Australasia it is not only widely spoken, as the only European language known on that vast continent, but written and printed in an almost incredible number of newspapers, magazines and reviews. In Asia so great is the desire manifested to learn it, that it was thought by Bishop Heber, that, if proper facilities were afforded, it would. In fifty years, supersede Hindoostanee, and become the court and camp language of India. In America, millions already speak, write, and read it, as their mother tongue… Never before did a language look forward to so bright a prospect as this…
From a writer to Gentleman’s Magazine in February, 1829

English is the language of the future
William White in the weekly The Schoolmaster in 1872

As we link Calcutta with Bombay, and Bombay with Madras, and by roads, railways, and telegraphs interlace province with province, we may in process of time fuse India into unity, and the use and prevalence of our language may be the register of the progress of that unity.
William White (1872)

In its easiness and grammatical construction, in its paucity of inflection, in its almost total disregard of the distinctions of gender excepting those of nature, in the simplicity and precision of its terminations and auxiliary verbs, not less than in the majesty, vigour and copiousness of its expression, our mother tongue seems well adapted by organization to become the language of the world.
A reviewer in the British periodical The Athenaeum (1848)

I am lamenting the neo-colonial situation which has meant the European bourgeoisie once again stealing our talents and geniuses as they have stolen our economies. In the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries Europe stole art treasures form Africa to decorate their houses and museums; in the twentieth century Europe is stealing the treasures of the mind to enrich their languages and cultures. Africa needs back its economy,, its politics, its culture, its languages and all its patriotic writers.
Ngugi wa Thiong’o, Decolonising the Mind (1986)

English became the language of my formal education. In Kenya, English became more than a language: it was the language, and all the others had to bow before it in deference. Thus one of the most humiliating experiences was to be caught speaking Gikuyu in the vicinity of the school. The culprit was given corporal punishment – three to five strokes of the cane on bare buttocks – or was made to carry a metal plate around his neck with inscriptions such as I AM STUPID or I AM A DONKEY.
Ngugi wa Thiong’o, Decolonising the Mind (1986)

English is not really an alien language to us. It is the language of our intellectual make-up – like Sanskrit and Persian was before – but not of our emotional make-up… we cannot write like the English. We should not. We cannot write only as Indians. We have grown to look at the large world as part of us. Our method of expression has to be a dialect which will some day prove to be as distinctive and colourful as the Irish or the American.
Raja Rao (1963)

I don’t think it is always necessary to take up the anti-colonial – or is it post-colonial? – cudgels against English. What seems to me to be happening is that those peoples who were once colonized by the language are now remaking it, domesticating it, becoming more and more relaxed about the way they use it. Assisted by the English language’s enormous flexibility and size, they are carving out large territories for themselves within its front.
To take the case of India, only because it’s the one in which I’m most familiar. The debate about the appropriateness of English in post-British India has been raging ever since 1947; but today, I find, it is a debate which has meaning only for the older generation. The children of independent India seem not to think of English as being irredeemably tainted by its colonial provenance. They use it as an Indian language, as one of the tools they have to hand.
Salman Rushdie (1963)

The price a world language must be prepared to pay is submission to many different kinds of use. The African writer should aim to use English in a way that brings out his message best without altering the language to the extent that its value as a medium of international exchange will be lost. He should aim at fashioning out an English which is at once universal and able to carry his peculiar experience… I feel that English will be able to carry the weight of my African experience. But it will have to be a new English, still in full communication with its ancestral home but altered to suit its new African surroundings.
Chinua Achebe, in Morning yet on Creation Day (1964)

Learning and using English will not only give us a unifying cord but will also land us into the world of ideas; it will enable us to keep company with kings in the world of ideas and also make it possible for us to share the experiences of our own brothers in the world…
Harry Mashabela (1975)

Shortly after I became the Secretary-General of the Commonwealth in 1975, I met Prime Minister Sirimavo Bandaranaike in Colombo and we talked of ways in which the Commonwealth Secretariat could help Sri Lanka. Her response was immediate and specific: ‘send us people to train our teachers to teach English as a foreign language’. My amazement must have showed, for the Prime Minister went on to explain that the policies her husband had put in place twenty years earlier to promote Sinhalese as the official language had succeeded so well that in the process Sri Lanka - so long the pearl of the English-speaking world in Asia - had in fact lost English, even as a second language save for the most educated Sri Lankans. Her concern was for development. Farmers in the field, she told me, could not read the instructions on bags of imported fertiliser- and manufacturers in the global market were not likely to print them in Sinhalese. Sri Lanka was losing its access to the world language of English. We did respond. I believe that today English is doing better as the second language in Sri Lanka.
Sridath Ramphal (1996)

To study molecular genetics, all you need to get into the Harvard University Library, or the medical library at Sweden’s Karolinska Institute, is a phone line and a computer.
And, it turns out, a solid command of the English language. Because whether you are a French intellectual pursuing the cutting edge of international film theory, a Japanese Paleobotanist curious about a newly-discovered set of primordial fossils, or an American teen-ager concerned about magic Johnson’s jump shot, the Internet and the World Wide Web really only work as great unifiers if you speak English.
Micheal Specter in the New York Times in 1996

If you want to take full advantage of the Internet there is only one way to do it: learn English, which has more than ever become America’s greatest and most effective export.
Micheal Specter in the New York Times in 1996

It is the ultimate act of intellectual colonialism. The product comes from America so we must either adapt to English or stop using it. That is the right of business. But if you are talking about a technology that is supposed to open the world to hundreds of millions of people you are joking. This just makes the world into new sorts of haves and have nots.
Anatoly Voronov, the director of Glasnet, an Internet provider in Russia

The expansion of the Internet strengthens the leading status of English. I can claim that many of those who have started learning or improving their English do so because they want to understand better what appeared on their computer screens after they had transferred packets of data from other computers. In other words, the more the network spreads, the more people are encouraged to learn English and the stronger the position of English becomes.
Pavel Radkovsky, Czech commentator, 1996


It is all too easy to make your way around in the world linguistically with English as your mother tongue… We become lazy about learning other languages… We all have to make a greater effort. English may be the world language; but it is not the world’s only language and if we are to be good global neighbours we shall have to be less condescending to the languages of the world – more assiduous in cultivating acquaintance with them.
Sir Sridath Ramphal (World language: opportunities, challenges, responsibilities) (1996)

There were, for the most part, people who were pleased that the Report had engaged the central issue of a global community, but they took us to task for not going on – in as they thought in a logical way – to call for a world language. They could not see how the global neighbourhood, the global community, which they acknowledged had come into being, could function effectively without a world language. A neighbourhood that can only talk in the tongues of many was not a neighbourhood that was likely to be cohesive or, perhaps, even cooperative… And they were right in one respect; but they were wrong in the sense that we have a world language. It is not the language of imperialism; it is the language we have seen that has evolved out of a history of which we need not always be proud, but whose legacies we must use to good effect.
Sir Sridath Ramphal (World language: opportunities, challenges, responsibilities) (1996)


There is no retreat from English as the world language; no retreat from an English-speaking world.
Sir Sridath Ramphal (World language: opportunities, challenges, responsibilities) (1996)

 

[Machjo]

Machjo

You are a walking library! Lots to read here.

My pleasure. Iv'e been reading up on and researching this for years, from books, experience, and face to face interviews and personal research.

But don't worry. The thread will still be here for awhile, so take your time to read it; no need to read it all in a day.

 

[Machjo]

Also, if you should visit the following English language BBS from the PRC, you'll feel like you're in Quebec Lava-hot language debates erupt regularly on this forum:

http://bbs.chinadaily.com.cn/