Angry Chirac leaves summit as Frenchman speaks English.

Blackleaf

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 9, 2004
49,956
1,910
113


STUFF LINGO JINGO

AH, European unity - brings a tear to your eye, doesn't it?

French President Jacques Chirac stormed out of an EU summit because one of his countrymen dared to address a meeting in English.

Ernest-Antoine Seilliere, head of UNICE, the organisation of EU business leaders, told a Brussels summit that he would speak in English because it is, "the business language of Europe".

This is merely the brutal truth. French was once the community's favoured lingo, but that all changed after Scandinavian and East European nations signed up.

But how petty, churlish and stupid Chirac makes himself - and the whole European unity con - look.

Touchy Jacques and the German Chancellor Angela Merkel are currently discussing how to revive the widely rejected EU constitution.

But why the hell should the British want a closer relationship with the likes of Jacques Chirac, who has to leave the room at the sound of the English language?

mirror.co.uk
 

Finder

House Member
Dec 18, 2005
3,786
0
36
Toronto
www.mytimenow.net
Re: RE: Angry Chirac leaves summit as Frenchman speaks Engli

iamcanadian said:
iamcanadian said:
cortez said:
im not suggesting we all speak french
but that the french be allowed to speak it

Who ever said that the french should not be allowed to speak their language?

The French Language has never been harmed by anyone. It is dying of natural causes. All the people fighting to keep it alive can do it at their own expense and without inconvenience or cost to any non-french speaking Canadians.

Alternatively they can do Canada a favour and all move back to Quebec, separate and make their own country as they like, rather than force everyone else to accomodate you.

They are entittled to speak their language the same way the Punjabi or any other non-french speaking Canadians speak theirs.

The problem with French Canadian Language issues is that the want to force everyone else to accomodate them. It is not right and it is at the very least arogant and hollier than thow atitude of worse and Non-french speaking Canadians should not have to put up with it in their own country.

If more non-french Canadians became more vocal at least things like the Conseil Scolaire du District Centre Sud Ouest can be eliminated form the non-french speaking parts of Ontario so the public does not have to pay to bus french families kids to schools fifty killometers away at huge expense and have all these half empty French Language Schools all over the Province while regular publilc schools have a field of portables to hold the extra kids and denser class sizes.

Why do the french canadians deserve better educational services than non-french canadians? We all pay the same rates of taxes!

I think that the French example by Chirac and the French Canadian approach are similar. These are imposing acts on others who are non-french speakers who are forced to pay for or pander to their feelings of cultural superiority over everyone else.

American English is not like this. It is taking over without anyone going out of their way to advance it or put down other languages so that it can advance. These are the distinct issues of most relevance and all of the emotional garbage the french put into their efforts is just a facade to get more for themselves at other peoples expeense. Who cares about any lanuage? Its what people have to say that is importaant not the frivolousness of HOW people say things.

Thats because ignorant Americans don't bother learning other tongues in school so it forces other people to learn english. Anyhow Iamcanadian, when economics changes, as they always do I'm sure we will be learning how to speak either Hindi or Chiness in the next 20 years. lol.
 

iamcanadian

Electoral Member
Nov 30, 2005
730
0
16
www.expose-ontario.org
Re: RE: Angry Chirac leaves summit as Frenchman speaks Engli

Thats because ignorant Americans don't bother learning other tongues in school so it forces other people to learn english. Anyhow Iamcanadian, when economics changes, as they always do I'm sure we will be learning how to speak either Hindi or Chiness in the next 20 years. lol.

I dissagree. English dominates specifically because Americans did not try to protect their language. They let people speak any which way and did not create the frivolous environment where people look down on others who do speak as perfect the language as the next man.

French is all so pomp and circumstance and people enjoy feeling superior than another because they are more gramatically correct and have the more correct nasal intonation. This is why the French language offends the ear by making people sound arogant and snobish.

It all very arogant and ignorant to put enphasis in how well one speaks instead of WHAT a person has to say.

French is dead because of the frivolousness inherant in the language. It is a waste of time learning and focussing on HOW well someone speaks.

I don't care if someone barks like a dog as long as I understand what they are saying.
 

Sassylassie

House Member
Jan 31, 2006
2,976
7
38
I enjoyed reading that post ITN. Merci-thankyou. Here in cow country they would say "Right nice day and some fine language".
 

I think not

Hall of Fame Member
Apr 12, 2005
10,506
33
48
The Evil Empire
Re: RE: Angry Chirac leaves summit as Frenchman speaks Engli

Finder said:
Thats because ignorant Americans don't bother learning other tongues in school so it forces other people to learn english. Anyhow Iamcanadian, when economics changes, as they always do I'm sure we will be learning how to speak either Hindi or Chiness in the next 20 years. lol.

That's quite the comment coming from someone that resides in an officially bilingual country, yet less than 20% of the population speaks both English and French.
 

iamcanadian

Electoral Member
Nov 30, 2005
730
0
16
www.expose-ontario.org
Re: RE: Angry Chirac leaves summit as Frenchman speaks Engli

I think not said:
Finder said:
That's quite the comment coming from someone that resides in an officially bilingual country, yet less than 20% of the population speaks both English and French.

And More Importantly 95% of those outside of Quebec don't understand a word of French and are being forced to pay for it. Furthermore their children are forced to take courses in French language in school.

Kind of like Nazi Propaganda being forced on non-french canadian children... someone call in the UN already, enough is enough.
 

FiveParadox

Governor General
Dec 20, 2005
5,875
43
48
Vancouver, BC
iamcanadian, I am not sure what province you are from, but here in British Columbia French is only compulsory until you begin high school.
 

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
17,878
61
48
Ottawa, ON
Just to clear up some misconceptions here as to how English spread in the world:

http://www.harvardmagazine.com/on-line/03022.html

Lest you take these English words for granted, consider this: when the United States was founded, only 40 percent of the people living within its boundaries spoke English as their first language. Widener Library's shelves hold testaments to our multilingual past: 125,000 imprints, from newspapers to novels, in languages other than English, all written by American residents throughout U.S. history.

Today, about 87 percent of U.S. residents speak English as their first language. What happened since 1776 is a matter of history--of contest, conflict, even persecution. In the antebellum South, for example, slaveowners and traders sometimes cut out the tongues of slaves unable or unwilling to speak English. When General Benjamin Butler was commanding the Union troops occupying New Orleans in 1862, he had some Francophones executed--specifically, some scholars believe, to discourage the use of French. In subsequent decades, Blackfoot Indians sent to boarding schools were forbidden to speak their native language, and were beaten if they did so. During World War I, certain state and local governments proscribed speaking German in public, hoping to dampen old allegiances among the nation's six million German immigrants. And throughout U.S. history, other less dramatic factors have contributed to English's emergence as our dominant tongue.

Far from seeing English as the spoils of conflict, however, many Anglophone Americans may be unaware they speak a particular language at all. English is like the air they breathe: natural, given, right. "The social fiction is that English isn't there," says Marc Shell, Babbitt professor of comparative literature and professor of English, who recently published an article, "Language Wars," in the New Centennial Review. "We never think about it. We just completely take it for granted." Shell's collection of essays, American Babel, will be issued by Harvard University Press later this year; he is also working on another book on language conflict. Language is rarely a given, Shell says--a fact of which many groups are painfully aware. Language, he asserts, is a key battleground for national and cultural conflict.

Most observers tend to explain political conflicts around the world as the result of racial, ethnic, religious, or territorial disputes; we rarely see language as a direct and fundamental cause. "What I'm trying to do is reintroduce the category of language into our thinking about political conflict," says Shell, himself an immigrant from bilingual Quebec. Doing so puts many clashes in a new light. Take the war in the Balkans, for example. In 1989, Slobodan Milosevic ordered Albanians to speak Serbian. They refused. Shell believes it's useful to see their refusal as a specific cause of conflict--more useful than understanding the war only in ethnic and religious terms.

The role of language in political conflict is important, Shell says, simply because tensions over language are increasing. With 6,700 languages in the world, by some scholars' count, and only 225 "nation-states"--and with the nation-state and its ideal of a unifying single language in decline--complex webs of resistance, dominance, and cooperation among language groups grow. Paradoxically, the webs can be so complex, Shell says, that we lose sight of conflicts' linguistic roots.

There's another fundamental reason to look to language as the source of tension: it is more tangible than race or religion. Scholars increasingly understand race to be a fiction: belonging to one or another group is more a social and historical matter than a biological one. It can be difficult to tell by looking at a person to which race or ethnicity she considers herself to belong: a Serb can look like an Albanian. Similarly, "You can pretend a Jewish person is Christian," Shell says, "but if he speaks a different language, you can't pretend he speaks yours."

As one of the most important elements of a culture's identity, language is also incendiary. A group's language can feel essential to its very existence. It's no surprise that often the more vulnerable a group feels, the greater its devotion to its language. "There are different qualities of allegiance," Shell says. Francophones tend to have a more explicit allegiance to their language than Anglophones do. "Most Americans don't have a close tie to their language of which they are aware. Most don't believe, for example, that God spoke English. But if we are Muslim, we may believe that God spoke Arabic, or if we are Jewish, Hebrew."

In the United States, conflicts over language persist, particularly in places with large immigrant populations. Having passed an initiative in 1998 that prohibits teaching schoolchildren in any language but English, Californians may be more cognizant of the possibility of "language wars" than other Americans. But Shell can imagine future scenarios with national scope. "If or when we have to negotiate a treaty with Canada or Mexico; if Puerto Rico joins us as a state; if we form a North American union like the one in Europe," he muses, such events could pose particular challenges to English. "If only there weren't diversity in the world," he says wryly, "everything would be so much easier."
 

cortez

Council Member
Feb 22, 2006
1,260
0
36
thats a very good post machjo
there is absolutely no comparison between the arrogance of english language speakers and anyone else-- although im not fluently francohone the language laws in quebec are right on..
 

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
17,878
61
48
Ottawa, ON
Re: RE: Angry Chirac leaves summit as Frenchman speaks Engli

cortez said:
thats a very good post machjo
there is absolutely no comparison between the arrogance of english language speakers and anyone else-- although im not fluently francohone the language laws in quebec are right on..

Thanks. But those weren't my words. They were a cut and paste fromt he link provided.
 

iamcanadian

Electoral Member
Nov 30, 2005
730
0
16
www.expose-ontario.org
Re: RE: Angry Chirac leaves summit as Frenchman speaks Engli

FiveParadox said:
iamcanadian, I am not sure what province you are from, but here in British Columbia French is only compulsory until you begin high school.

That is exactly what I am refering to.

I have never heard of any other country ini the world or in history that make a language spoken by less than 5% of their population "Compulsory" for the nations children till the age of 14, outside of Fascist Dictatorships. I am sure Hitler did this when he took over territory in his day to advance the master race.

This is not unlike Nazi Gestapo propaganda to start brainwashing children at an early age into thinking Canada is more French than it really actually is so that they will submit more easily to having French Canadians advancing over Non-French Canadians in many ways as they grow up.

There should be absolutely NO compulsery French for any age group outside of Quebec or for that matter in Quebec itself and people should be free to choose what they want for their own children and not be dictated by the State.

What is the cost of this cumpulsory education across Canada? No one thinks about this cost of bilingualism that 100% of Canadians can do without by applying free will.
 

Curiosity

Senate Member
Jul 30, 2005
7,326
138
63
California
I was hoping someone would point out ....

...that English is a bastard language - that it is a language made up like a patchwork quilt of many languages - it is not a "birthright" language of any one nation....although it ended up somehow as the name from England. But then England had many migrants contributing to its birth too.

Therefore, English is forgiving as it changes on an annual basis with the popular input of advertising, media, artistic license, etc., and the "formality of English" as taught in schools decreases as long as their is informed communication and understanding.

Think of the meanings of the word "hot" for example: "Hot" can bring smiles thinking of the opposite sex, pain when thinking of a burn from cooking, exhaustion from a humid summer day, concern at the anger from someone, immediate off the press news.....and so on.

I think it is going to be the language of the world one day because it can morph and change to suit. English in Asia may be totally different than English in Puerto Rico - but I'll wager people can still - even with difficulty - communicate with each other - and that is what language must do - serve the people.

Keep the Romance and Ancient scripts for historical purposes and cut to Communication - which is the most vitally important feature of our world these days.

There is not one of us who feels "less than" when we are shut out from a conversation by a group. Even Jacques Chirac!!!
 

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
17,878
61
48
Ottawa, ON
Re: RE: Angry Chirac leaves summit as Frenchman speaks Engli

quote="iamcanadian"
FiveParadox said:
iamcanadian, I am not sure what province you are from, but here in British Columbia French is only compulsory until you begin high school.

That is exactly what I am refering to.

I have never heard of any other country ini the world or in history that make a language spoken by less than 5% of their population "Compulsory" for the nations children till the age of 14, outside of Fascist Dictatorships. I am sure Hitler did this when he took over territory in his day to advance the master race.


5%? I think you'd better check the statistics on that one, IamCanadian.

And as for making a particular second language mandatory without options, Quebec is even worse; they are required to elarn English right through high school. Now while your comparison to Hitler is quite ignorant (like comparing a kid who'se just a little annoying sometime to a mass murderer), I can say I still agree with you in principle on this one though.

This is not unlike Nazi Gestapo propaganda to start brainwashing children at an early age into thinking Canada is more French than it really actually is so that they will submit more easily to having French Canadians advancing over Non-French Canadians in many ways as they grow up.

OK, now you've been smoking some potent stuff here.

"There should be absolutely NO compulsery French for any age group outside of Quebec or for that matter in Quebec itself and people should be free to choose what they want for their own children and not be dictated by the State."

Huh? If I'm not mystaken, French is not a foreign language in Quebec. Have you done done any travelling in your life?


"What is the cost of this cumpulsory education across Canada? No one thinks about this cost of bilingualism that 100% of Canadians can do without by applying free will."

But I'm not no one.
 

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
17,878
61
48
Ottawa, ON
quote="Wednesday's Child"I was hoping someone would point out ....

...that English is a bastard language

Damned rights you are! i do translation sometimes, and God in as much as English is a beautiful language among its native population, among the non-native-speaking world it's a facking mess!

"- that it is a language made up like a patchwork quilt of many languages - it is not a "birthright" language of any one nation....although it ended up somehow as the name from England. But then England had many migrants contributing to its birth too."

Oh believe me, it's still fundamentally Germanic in the end.

"Therefore, English is forgiving as it changes on an annual basis with the popular input of advertising, media, artistic license, etc., and the "formality of English" as taught in schools decreases as long as their is informed communication and understanding."

Forgiving my ass! When I'm trying to translate from Chinglish, unless I can figure out what national variety of Chinglish it is, I'm usually facking clueless as to what the person wants to say.

Likewise, when I speak with Chinese, I can't speak in normal native English; I must always watch my words. If I speak with another native speaker in native English in the presence of Chinese with masters' degrees in English, they're facking lost. A few years ago, I literally (I'm not joking here) had to interpret from Cameroonian englsih to Canadian Englsih so that the interpreter could then interpret from Canadian englsih to Chinese. At the beginning of the meeting, I also had to interpret from Australian English to canadian Englsh for the first 20 minutes or so until the interpreter attuned to the accent (but for the camroonian it was right through). On another occasion, while eating at a restaurant with a Chinese teacher of English, I had a wonderful conversation with a Pakistani at the table next to ours. At the end, after the teacher and I left, she asked me if he was speaking in English, since she could not understand a word he said and the only reason she guessed that he was speaking in English was because I was responding to him in English. So I must say, English is a facking mess of a language. I could give more examples, but I think this suffices for today.

"Think of the meanings of the word "hot" for example: "Hot" can bring smiles thinking of the opposite sex, pain when thinking of a burn from cooking, exhaustion from a humid summer day, concern at the anger from someone, immediate off the press news.....and so on."

This is exactly the sort of thing which makes students of the language want to bungy jump without a cord.

"I think it is going to be the language of the world one day because it can morph and change to suit. English in Asia may be totally different than English in Puerto Rico - but I'll wager people can still - even with difficulty - communicate with each other - and that is what language must do - serve the people."

This rapid, constant and regionalized morphing of which you speak is precicely what is breaking the language apart. If I see the words "billion", "trillion", quadrillion", "quintillion", etc, corn, elevator, highway, etc, I have no facking clue how to translate it unless it's clear from context. But if it's written in very technical style, the context ain't obvious. Now if I know whether or not the person is using US or British English, that helps. but often the spelling is US (Microsoft Word Spell check) but the words are British (Oxford dictionaries). but then if the person in question has learnt various froms of englsih but can't distinguish them, then we effectively have communication breakdown. If I'm familiar with teh industry in question, that might help. But of course most people aren't familiar with every industry in every area. So at that stage I can only ask:

Does your elevator industry sell mostly to cities, farms or ariplane companies? Does this corn industry of which you speak consist strictly of maize, or any local grain in general? When you say you made a profit of 1 billion Yuan, do you mean 1,000,000,000 Yuan or 1,000,000,000,000 Yuan? I mean holy fack, no wonder english speakers are bad at maths! Immagine a teacher from britain using the etymological definition of the word billion going tot he US to teach maths to US students who use the newer definition of the word! Those students are facked!

Now as for understanding between a Chinese and a Puerto Rican, some Chinese can't even understand Australian English (and these are people with Englsih degrees), and arent' even aware of all the differences between national varieties of English, so you tell me how the fack they're going to understand Puerto Rican unless they've had the chance of knowing Puerto Ricans for at elast some time so as to attune their ear to the language.

"Keep the Romance and Ancient scripts for historical purposes and cut to Communication - which is the most vitally important feature of our world these days."

I fully agree; that's exactly why I think we ought to scrap English as a language for international communication and put it back to its intended original use (i.e, communication between native-speakers of the language). You have no idea how often I had to get into legal or contract disputes with Chinese here who I thought had a good mastery of the language just because they did't understand some of the subtleties of English grammar in their writing of the contract. And I thought the purpose of english was for facking clear communication.


"There is not one of us who feels "less than" when we are shut out from a conversation by a group. Even Jacques Chirac!!!"

funny thing is, when I'm in China, I sometimes feel advantaged due to my native language, with the Chinese sometimes feeling "less than" on their own frigging soil just because their government has decided to adopt such an atrocious language for international communication.
 

Blackleaf

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 9, 2004
49,956
1,910
113
I was hoping someone would point out ....

...that English is a bastard language - that it is a language made up like a patchwork quilt of many languages - it is not a "birthright" language of any one nation....although it ended up somehow as the name from England. But then England had many migrants contributing to its birth too.
It's called English because it was invented in England. It's England's language, just as French is called French because it was invented in France.
 

iamcanadian

Electoral Member
Nov 30, 2005
730
0
16
www.expose-ontario.org
There are one thousand versions of English and are one thousand versions of French and every other major language. They were not invented and they just developed from prior dielects from when the world was more divided and villagers 10 km away from each other rarely interacted.

Separation and distance and the lack of interaction is what caused different languages and people lost their ability to understand each other.

One day someone decided than Shakespear's dialect was the version to be the standard, it was then just one in a thousand languages spoken in england and people on one side of the country could not understand people on the other side. The farther away they where geographically the less they could understand.

The same happened with Intalion and the Dante Alligiegi dialect.

I don't know whose dialect French was arbitrarily picked from and who really cares anyway?

People speaking of language as anything more than a way to communicate are ignorant.

Like I said before if someone can bark like a dog and people understand what is said, then that person deserves the same respect as a good "communicator and linguist" as the top French Language University Professior of France.

Get off your high horses people you are not any better than anyone else simply because of a stupid language.

Today we are moving so closse together that if we do not communicate in one laguage we are toast.

Language(s) as a plural is no longer feasable in with the accelerating pace of information exchange.

Sending children to French school is harming their future by wasting their brain power that they can otherwise dedicate to some higher purpose and more valuable long lasting learning experience.

I went through cumpulsery French in elementary school here in Canada and it was a complete waste of my time. It would have had more value to me growing up if it had been recess. My own children where forced to attend over my personal objections to the principle who said if they don't take French they can't pass even when they are at the top of the class in every subject.
 

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
17,878
61
48
Ottawa, ON
Re: RE: Angry Chirac leaves summit as Frenchman speaks Engli

Blackleaf said:
I was hoping someone would point out ....

...that English is a bastard language - that it is a language made up like a patchwork quilt of many languages - it is not a "birthright" language of any one nation....although it ended up somehow as the name from England. But then England had many migrants contributing to its birth too.
It's called English because it was invented in England. It's England's language, just as French is called French because it was invented in France.

Someone's gotta brain. I couldn't have said it better. Thanks, Blackleaf.
 

Blackleaf

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 9, 2004
49,956
1,910
113
Re: RE: Angry Chirac leaves summit as Frenchman speaks Engli

iamcanadian said:
There are one thousand versions of English and are one thousand versions of French and every other major language. They were not invented and they just developed from prior dielects from when the world was more divided and villagers 10 km away from each other rarely interacted.

Separation and distance and the lack of interaction is what caused different languages and people lost their ability to understand each other.

One day someone decided than Shakespear's dialect was the version to be the standard, it was then just one in a thousand languages spoken in england and people on one side of the country could not understand people on the other side. The farther away they where geographically the less they could understand.

The same happened with Intalion and the Dante Alligiegi dialect.

I don't know whose dialect French was arbitrarily picked from and who really cares anyway?

People speaking of language as anything more than a way to communicate are ignorant.

Like I said before if someone can bark like a dog and people understand what is said, then that person deserves the same respect as a good "communicator and linguist" as the top French Language University Professior of France.

Get off your high horses people you are not any better than anyone else simply because of a stupid language.

Today we are moving so closse together that if we do not communicate in one laguage we are toast.

Language(s) as a plural is no longer feasable in with the accelerating pace of information exchange.

Sending children to French school is harming their future by wasting their brain power that they can otherwise dedicate to some higher purpose and more valuable long lasting learning experience.

I went through cumpulsery French in elementary school here in Canada and it was a complete waste of my time. It would have had more value to me growing up if it had been recess. My own children where forced to attend over my personal objections to the principle who said if they don't take French they can't pass even when they are at the top of the class in every subject.

English eveloped in ENGLAND - hence its name.

It derived from the languages spoken by the Germanic Anglo-Saxon peoples - the Angles, the Saxons and the Jutes (the modern-day English people) - when they invaded Britain 1000 years ago.

Their language, Old English, unlike modern English, was highly inflected and complicated, with 3 grammatical genders - masculine, feminine and neuter. One theory why English today has NO grammatical gender is because when the Anglo-Saxons and the Native Britons, the Celts (the modern day Scots and Welsh) wanted to trade with each other, the Anglo-Saxons simplified their language to make it easier for the Britons to understand.

English, and England, take their name from one of the Germanic tribes - the Angles. English used to be known as "Englisc" and England comes from "Angleland", Land of the Angles.

There's a bit of a history lesson for you.