And God Gave Them Over ...

Motar

Motar

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Tecumsehsbones said:
I think, on average, we are dead-bang where we where. . . pick your time. We have resolved some of the macro cruelties like slavery and genocide and unfreedom of women and non-whites, and gone far in the area of not forbidding that which does not affect anyone but the actor, but at the same time we have engendered a more disconnected, less compassionate society, where tens of millions are denied a place to stand and people to be with, and even the basic necessities of life.

Among my ancestral people, the idea of a chief eating while a child starved wouldn't just be illegal or immoral, it would be unthinkable, and if anyone were to propose such a thing, he'd be regarded as dangerously insane. But "the West" regarded us as subhuman. Makes you wonder, don't it?

It is clear to me from the text you quoted that Mr. Graham thinks that permitting abortion is grounds for God abandoning the west, and that slavery and genocide were not grounds. So you'll forgive me if I don't think much of Mr. Graham's god.
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Appreciate your thoughts, TB.

Mr. Graham's views on abortion as grounds for judgment are likely rooted in Bible context:

"God prohibited Israel from child sacrifice in general and Molech worship in particular. Leviticus 20:2-5 states, 'Say to the Israelites: ‘Any Israelite or any foreigner residing in Israel who sacrifices any of his children to Molek is to be put to death. The members of the community are to stone him. I myself will set my face against him and will cut him off from his people; for by sacrificing his children to Molek, he has defiled my sanctuary and profaned my holy name. If the members of the community close their eyes when that man sacrifices one of his children to Molek and if they fail to put him to death, I myself will set my face against him and his family and will cut them off from their people together with all who follow him in prostituting themselves to Molek."

What does the Bible say about child sacrifice?
 
gerryh

gerryh

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Motar said:
wax and wane according to God's love and wisdom and our chosen outcomes.

There is no possibility of pinpointing a time of absolute blessing or period of unconditional abandonment in the West by God. He is still working out His agenda and we are still adjusting. Trends however can be identified.
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So, from this I take it that God loves us more or less depending? That there are times when he will abandon us? Is that right?
 
darkbeaver

darkbeaver

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Motar said:
There it is, TB. Gravity suspended ... by giddiness : )
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It's a question. Answer it.


Motar said:
There it is, TB. Gravity suspended ... by giddiness : )
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Gravity is easy to suspend.
 
gerryh

gerryh

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Tecumsehsbones said:
If you fall short of your murdered gays quota, god's gonna take his ball, and his bat, and go home.
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It is almost sounding that way, or at least take his ball and bat and go home, however, I'd like to see motar answer this. In plain english, please.
 
Motar

Motar

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gerryh said:
So, from this I take it that God loves us more or less depending? That there are times when he will abandon us? Is that right?
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God's love and abandonment judgment are on display in the atoning sacrifice of his Son:

"About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?” (which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”) (Matthew 27:46 NIV)
"My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? Why are you so far from saving me, so far from my cries of anguish?" (Psalm 22:1 NIV)

God loves us and demonstrates His love for us in Jesus so that we never have to experience His abandonment.
 
gerryh

gerryh

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Motar said:
God's love and abandonment judgment are on display in the atoning sacrifice of his Son:

"About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?” (which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”) (Matthew 27:46 NIV)
"My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? Why are you so far from saving me, so far from my cries of anguish?" (Psalm 22:1 NIV)

God loves us and demonstrates His love for us in Jesus so that we never have to experience His abandonment.
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That does not, and did not demonstrate an example of God "abandoning" Christ. That was an example of Christ's humanity, his fear of dieing, his human insecurity.


Let me put it this way. We are God's children ( and since we are not face to face I will assume your agreement on this)

As God is our Father, and we his children, then God loves ALL his children UNCONDITIONALLY! He will not and would not "abandon ANY OF US, for ANY REASON. Remember the parable of the lost lamb and what the shepherd did? Remember the parable of the prodigal son?

Christ told us these two parables to explain and demonstrate God's love for us. Even the ones that are lost and return and the ones that are lost and need to be found. There was no retribution, no hellfire, no abandonment.

God, our Father, loves us unconditionally. If that is not true, then that would mean that God is LESS than my own parents, and I refuse to believe that and I refuse to allow fear mongering sycophants to denigrate his Holy name.
 
Motar

Motar

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gerryh said:
That does not, and did not demonstrate an example of God "abandoning" Christ. That was an example of Christ's humanity, his fear of dieing, his human insecurity.


Let me put it this way. We are God's children ( and since we are not face to face I will assume your agreement on this)

As God is our Father, and we his children, then God loves ALL his children UNCONDITIONALLY! He will not and would not "abandon ANY OF US, for ANY REASON. Remember the parable of the lost lamb and what the shepherd did? Remember the parable of the prodigal son?

Christ told us these two parables to explain and demonstrate God's love for us. Even the ones that are lost and return and the ones that are lost and need to be found. There was no retribution, no hellfire, no abandonment.

God, our Father, loves us unconditionally. If that is not true, then that would mean that God is LESS than my own parents, and I refuse to believe that and I refuse to allow fear mongering sycophants to denigrate his Holy name.
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Have you considered starting a discussion about universal salvation, gerry?
 
Tecumsehsbones

Tecumsehsbones

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Motar said:
Both are in a general state of decline.
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So, all that just for you to talk to yourself?

How disappointing.

However, I would point out that there are plenty of areas of the world where genocide, slavery, second (or lower) class status for women and children, and authoritarianism are still going strong. I'm sure Graham's god smiles on them every day.
 
Motar

Motar

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Tecumsehsbones said:
...but at the same time we have engendered a more disconnected, less compassionate society, where tens of millions are denied a place to stand and people to be with, and even the basic necessities of life.
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Agree, TB.

"Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold ... (Matthew 24:12 NIV)

"People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God ... " (2 Timothy 3:2-4 NIV)

darkbeaver said:
What was Israel? What is Israel? hahahahahahahah
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Sorry, DB. Did not respond thinking this was rhetorical.

I found 2431 Bible references to "Israel" using the search function at BibleGateway.com

Here is the first reference to get you started:

"Then the man said, 'Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel, because you have struggled with God and with humans and have overcome." (Genesis 32:28 NIV)
 
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