America at War

[peapod]

I agree with twinks! excellent post ocean, a breath of fresh air Ah! common sense...where did it go?? I think its been replaced by stupidity 8O

 

[EagleSmack]

Re: RE: America at War

I will never sell the noble idea to you folks. That is for sure. However I believe we went in for a noble cause. Not that war is a noble enterprise, I am not saying that. I also think that the war for oil is not the reason. If it is... where is the oil that GWB is supposed to have secured for ourselves? By the war for oil theory, we should be pumping that oil onto US Ships for $0. That has not happened. Even with the terrorist strikes on oil fields there are still plenty of secure fields that we could be filling our reserves and more. It is just not happening. We, you and I, are paying BIG at the pumps because OPEC still sets the price for oil. We have no say on what they do.

Wow. This is exactly the kind of spin/rhetoric /hostility/ and pathology that was so prevelant on the ...get this. "Belief" based politics board I just left. Sure had hoped I had left it behind....and entered a forum of rational discussion./debate.

Ok........ If you (Americans ) have this need to "SELL" an idea for an invasion , then you all are in serious trouble.

Talk about spin. I have said I would never try to sell this as a noble idea to you. But hey... spin spin spin. Or just put words in my mouth. You are good at it. I guess since I do not agree, therefore it is not a rational debate. What is rational? For me to say "You are right."


If you feel you can invade another nation, make up a few lies to do it......you are in serious trouble. If you really "believe" that your intentions are "Noble"......and expect others to buy into the crap......you are in serious trouble.

I do not count on anyone believing anything. You will believe what you want to believe and ignore everything else. Ocean... you are always right, everyone else is wrong.

If you believe that you (USers) don't want to rule/dominate the world even more than you do, in serious trouble .

This is a great one. I do not believe that the USers are out to rule and dominate the world. So I guess I am in some serious trouble. Somehow I do not see by holding the belief that we do not want to rule the world is going to get me in serious trouble. Out of curiosity... what kind of trouble?

If you really believe that Americans are world knowledgeable, culture savy, and not insular , while YOUR gov't goes about jerking the world around with ongoing aggressive tactics.....again, in serious trouble.

Only you know everything... it is all clear now.

Yes, maybe you should be more like China. China may not have the gov't YOU APPROVE of (as if your approval matters) , but they are smart, and don't run around interfering in everyone elses business.

I do not wish to have the Chinese Govt. But you don't see Chinese troops ditty bopping in the Congo either. I think we should be more like them in that respect.

by serious trouble......I mean. You (and your ilk) are so full of your self to the point of being delusional. and have lost contact with any semblance of reality.

Right... you have the solutions to all of the world's problems.

You see, I could care less what you and your insanity has to say about Canada. And maybe you could care less what we say about your gov't. There is one major difference between the two situations. The US is in everyone's face and that makes it everyone's business. So face the fact, there will be a lot of opinions about the US(G) ....and particularly now. These opinions and feelings are well JUSTIFIED.

All the reason why we should let the world solve its own problems and look to our own problems.

Seems it is naive and arrogant to even use the word "noble" in describing the US actions. EVERYTHING the US does is based on self interest and self interest alone. If you think this invasion was for 'Noble" reasons.........you are only deluding yourself .

Again that is your opinion. I believe it was noble to rid Iraq of a dictator who murdered 1.3 Million people. I guess that is not noble. When Canada deploys its troops on Peacekeeping missions is that not noble? I believe so. Does the UN have the last say on what country gets to be saved or at least helped.

IF this had been open , transparent and made rational sense, from the onset......there would have been world support, bush would not have had to go around manipulating others to follow him into his FANATICAL CRUSADE, and there would be a general concensus that this was the "Right" thing to do. IF it has been a "noble" or "right" thing to do....... we would be discussing the progress being made, the world would be involved in the reconstruction as a collaberative effort etc. Reconstruction??? think HALLIBURTON.......think Cheney ( whether he has an official position there or not) Face it, the US-corporations (select ones) are making money out of this. The oil factor is a lot more complicated and cannot be translated into the cost now per person directly.

LIES are not "noble" And what you have is a decietful leader. and he cares not about who he lies to. He has no regard for international law.......unless it is in his favor. THis is how he operates. He makes up the rules as he goes along. He is a fanatic.

Once again it is your opinion because you simply hate Bush. I think you are a fanatic to be honest. You are fanatic on your views and you are not open to the other side. This does not mean you wish violence on anyone, but you mannerisims are fanatical.

Now, tell, me , is there any wonder there is so much anger at the US now??? Does this anger not translate into terrorism. Anger is the basis for most terrorist activity. ( combine anger and religion and you have a time bomb. )

If and when we are struck again... the cycle will be repeated. As long as Americans are being killed so will our enemies. I would not expect Canada to lie down, nor should you expect the US.

 

[mrmom2]

Eagle said

Again that is your opinion. I believe it was noble to rid Iraq of a dictator who murdered 1.3 Million people. I guess that is not noble. When Canada deploys its troops on Peacekeeping missions is that not noble? I believe so. Does the UN have the last say on what country gets to be saved or at least helped

Were did you get that number Main stream media maybe you better do some more research there Eagle 8O Those numbers completely false

 

[EagleSmack]

http://www.iraqitruthproject.com/

Here you go. It isn't mainsteam. But they probably won't show what you want to hear.

Do you have any numbers? I'd like to see them.

 

[Reverend Blair]

How many of those atrocities were committed with the full support of the United States, Eaglesmack? Your government opposed any sanctions to punish Hussein when Reagan was in power, are you going to claim innocence now?

 

[peapod]

http://www.onlinejournal.com/Special_Reports/041805Madsen/041805madsen.html

 

[EagleSmack]

Re: RE: America at War

How many of those atrocities were committed with the full support of the United States, Eaglesmack? Your government opposed any sanctions to punish Hussein when Reagan was in power, are you going to claim innocence now?

Full support? Or did the whole world turn a blind eye to it? I'd say the latter... that includes Canada.

Or are you saying that we supported the use of WMDs against the Kurds? Or the mass slaughter of Shia.

 

[Reverend Blair]

I'm saying that US opposed sanctions, or even a statement against Saddam's actions against the Kurds. The Reagan administration then claimed that Iran did it, not their best buddy Saddam.

Now every time anybody criticizes the USA's illegal invasion, use of banned weapons, and slaughter of innocent civilians you guys scream about those Kurds.

 

[EagleSmack]

Re: RE: America at War

I'm saying that US opposed sanctions, or even a statement against Saddam's actions against the Kurds. The Reagan administration then claimed that Iran did it, not their best buddy Saddam.

Now every time anybody criticizes the USA's illegal invasion, use of banned weapons, and slaughter of innocent civilians you guys scream about those Kurds.

Once again the whole world turned a blind eye to it... the UN did nothing to stop him.

 

[Reverend Blair]

That's because the US said they would veto it. You can't have it both ways, Eaglesmack...not everybody has forgotten history and hardly anybody outside of the US believes in the deification of Droolin' Ronnie Rayguns.

 

[moghrabi]

Re: RE: America at War

I will never sell the noble idea to you folks. That is for sure. However I believe we went in for a noble cause. Not that war is a noble enterprise, I am not saying that. I also think that the war for oil is not the reason. If it is... where is the oil that GWB is supposed to have secured for ourselves? By the war for oil theory, we should be pumping that oil onto US Ships for $0. That has not happened. Even with the terrorist strikes on oil fields there are still plenty of secure fields that we could be filling our reserves and more. It is just not happening. We, you and I, are paying BIG at the pumps because OPEC still sets the price for oil. We have no say on what they do.

Wow. This is exactly the kind of spin/rhetoric /hostility/ and pathology that was so prevelant on the ...get this. "Belief" based politics board I just left. Sure had hoped I had left it behind....and entered a forum of rational discussion./debate.

Ok........ If you (Americans ) have this need to "SELL" an idea for an invasion , then you all are in serious trouble. If you feel you can invade another nation, make up a few lies to do it......you are in serious trouble. If you really "believe" that your intentions are "Noble"......and expect others to buy into the crap......you are in serious trouble.

If you believe that you (USers) don't want to rule/dominate the world even more than you do, in serious trouble .

If you really believe that Americans are world knowledgeable, culture savy, and not insular , while YOUR gov't goes about jerking the world around with ongoing aggressive tactics.....again, in serious trouble.

Yes, maybe you should be more like China. China may not have the gov't YOU APPROVE of (as if your approval matters) , but they are smart, and don't run around interfering in everyone elses business.

by serious trouble......I mean. You (and your ilk) are so full of your self to the point of being delusional. and have lost contact with any semblance of reality.

You see, I could care less what you and your insanity has to say about Canada. And maybe you could care less what we say about your gov't. There is one major difference between the two situations. The US is in everyone's face and that makes it everyone's business. So face the fact, there will be a lot of opinions about the US(G) ....and particularly now. These opinions and feelings are well JUSTIFIED.

Seems it is naive and arrogant to even use the word "noble" in describing the US actions. EVERYTHING the US does is based on self interest and self interest alone. If you think this invasion was for 'Noble" reasons.........you are only deluding yourself .

IF this had been open , transparent and made rational sense, from the onset......there would have been world support, bush would not have had to go around manipulating others to follow him into his FANATICAL CRUSADE, and there would be a general concensus that this was the "Right" thing to do. IF it has been a "noble" or "right" thing to do....... we would be discussing the progress being made, the world would be involved in the reconstruction as a collaberative effort etc. Reconstruction??? think HALLIBURTON.......think Cheney ( whether he has an official position there or not) Face it, the US-corporations (select ones) are making money out of this. The oil factor is a lot more complicated and cannot be translated into the cost now per person directly.

LIES are not "noble" And what you have is a decietful leader. and he cares not about who he lies to. He has no regard for international law.......unless it is in his favor. THis is how he operates. He makes up the rules as he goes along. He is a fanatic.

Now, tell, me , is there any wonder there is so much anger at the US now??? Does this anger not translate into terrorism. Anger is the basis for most terrorist activity. ( combine anger and religion and you have a time bomb. )

Good for you Ocean. I did not even have to say anythng this time. I hope he got it. Denial, Denial, Denial.

 

[Ocean Breeze]

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050608/NEWS06/506080475/101


is it possible that the US is waking up from its adrenalin rush about being so pumped up for war???

Maybe the collective "we" will see more outrage now.

fingers xed.

 

[Ocean Breeze]

smack:" As long as Americans are being killed so will our enemies."

so you would be prepared to foster, inflame the cycle of violence???? (seems the US/"enemies and Israel/Palestine have a lot in common.....they "will not back down" no matter how many are killed. and the cycle is perpetuated) Will someone-from the outside of the situation and more objective- have to come in a referee this cycle in order to break it???

Seems that the cycle can only be broken if a new leadership takes over in the US. Time for a regime change in the US. (and hey guys....the US HAS stockpiles of WMD)......

doesn't that thought just make one's day??? (horrors)

 

[jimmoyer]

These things will never happen, but just suppose for a carefree moment:

What will you do if Bush admits to the lie?

What will you do when Bush is tried in the world court?

What then?

Will you then notice that Iraq needs some attention, and perhaps helping that country get on its feet gets higher priority than the back burner of the anti-bush crusade?

 

[Ocean Breeze]

Will you then notice that Iraq needs some attention,

Do you honestly believe that the world (that isn't busy trying to simply survive)......is not AWARE of the plight in Iraq??? Again it goes back to how this whole mess was handled from the onset.

If the US were to at least indicate verbally and by action a change in tactics from AGGRESSIVE (and possessive) in Iraq and show evidence that the New Iraqi gov't really does have some clout........and the Iraqi gov't issued a plea (without the US pulling the strings from behind the scenes).........for help., other nations would be willing to help . (those that have the resources). Let's not forget that all nations are NOT EQUAL in resources and capabilities.

But as long as the US is in Iraq , in full force and steering the new gov't from behind the scenes........not sure anyone wants to get involved. This is not because of the Iraqis.......but because of the US presence there.

Don't try to lay a guilt trip on other nations......when you (the US) has been in Iraq , one way or another, for some time now. The US is far too fickle to be reliable. or trusted.........so why should anyone help the US now??? Help the Iraqis ???? YES.

The objective should have been made clear some time ago. An INDEPENDANT Iraq. and that means independant from the US too.

Meanwhile.......Hallliburton and other American companies are making a killing in Iraq "reconstructing" mostly what the US (G) destroyed with its bombs.

 

[Ocean Breeze]

Once again the whole world turned a blind eye to it... the UN did nothing to stop him.

so in your arrogance and lofty self righteousness, took it upon yourself to "correct" the situation......by creating more disaster and killing. using the favored technique of bombing the crap out of the nation.


yep, that makes a lot of RATIONAL sense , don't it??? :roll:

(sarcasm)

 

[I think not]

Meanwhile.......Hallliburton and other American companies are making a killing in Iraq "reconstructing" mostly what the US (G) destroyed with its bombs.

Since the American taxpayer is paying for that, I'm not quite sure what your argument is here.

 

[Ocean Breeze]

Since the American taxpayer is paying for that, I'm not quite sure what your argument is

sadly, you really don't "get it" do you???

you continue to measure all things in "dollars and cents".....and therefore, the liklihood of comprehending the larger scenario is beyond scope or realization.


yes, the US taxpayer is paying for it.(or is it?? Therefore, the USer can pat himself on the back and claim all the good he is doing in Iraq......while companies like Halliburtin get richer and richer.....and will not let the world forget how much "good" they have done in Iraq.

sigh. just the usual game of passive aggressive dysfunctional thinking.

oh well. :roll:


seeing as how so much in the US is measured in dollar value.......how much is an Iraqi life worth??? How much is a US military life worth........or a Brit life?? Or a hostage that was beheaded life?????

Each atrocity that has occurred since this mess started, is a result of the environment created by the US invasion......so that makes the US responsible. (No American had to weild a knife to behead a terrified hostage........ as the "American" created the atmosphere for this to happen .)

btw: Until now, many of us made the mistake of holding the US to a higher standard......because we naively "believed " in the US honoring a higher ethical /legal/ and yes, moral standard.

so it has been a very rude awakening for some of us ( YT included)

 

[I think not]

Since the American taxpayer is paying for that, I'm not quite sure what your argument is

sadly, you really don't "get it" do you???

you continue to measure all things in "dollars and cents".....and therefore, the liklihood of comprehending the larger scenario is beyond scope or realization.


yes, the US taxpayer is paying for it.(or is it?? Therefore, the USer can pat himself on the back and claim all the good he is doing in Iraq......while companies like Halliburtin get richer and richer.....and will not let the world forget how much "good" they have done in Iraq.

sigh. just the usual game of passive aggressive dysfunctional thinking.

oh well. :roll:

Pardon me Ocean but it was YOU that mentioned dollars wasn't it?
And what exactly does, or is it???? mean? And who says we're patting ourselves on the back?

Whats your beaf here? That companies get richer and richer? Thats the purpose of a company, to make profits.

Like the governments, they drain you through taxes and offer crap in return.

 

[Ocean Breeze]

My "beef" is in one and one only area.....and it is the pathos of this invasion in Iraq and the consequences that are coming into play as a result of it.

Do you think it makes me happy to see the US resented so much?? absolutely not. It is very sad,.......and it is very scary.

for the record: I do NOT HATE bush. Hate is not in my language or sphere of influence. I do contest his leadership........ and only in as much as it affects the world and the many people who have to suffer his arrogant aggressiveness. If Americans are happy with hm and his "domestic" policies , that is their business...... but when he does what he is doing on the world stage.....it is everyone's business. Nothing complicated about that one.