America at War

[jimmoyer]

It's a fact of life that sets in train a motion, a sequence that when the first person does wrong, so does the next and the next.

You've seen it happen in every job you've ever had.

So we talk about Bush crap and guess what the next wrong thing happens, a hubris that is so blinding, nothing else can be seen but the point of a person's objective ire, and so the universe shrinks to that one vantage point and that one vantage point only.

While you all congratulate yourselves on moral clarity only the ones that are the butt of the whole joke of the universe can see you more clearly.

The lack of humility in all our observations is the seed of downfall.

Now, I return you all to your regularly scheduled programming.

 

[Reverend Blair]

So if somebody bashed you on the head with a club, killing you, we should just ignore it, Jim? I would want the person arrested and tried for the crime.

 

[jimmoyer]

But I thought your were the same person who would not interfere with a mugging or a killing?

 

[Reverend Blair]

Whether I interfered or not does not change the fact that I expect people who commit crime to be prosecuted for those crimes.

You never answered my question, btw.

 

[moghrabi]

We did not interfere in your mugging of Iraq. But that does not mean that Bush and his cronies should go unpunished.

 

[jimmoyer]

To the honorable, Reverend Blair:

Here's your answer for your crusade.
We should not ignore the crime.

And so you do that.

The question of interfering with a mugging or a killing in progress is meant for others to do.

Call it division of labor.

 

[Ocean Breeze]

Re: RE: America at War

We did not interfere in your mugging of Iraq. But that does not mean that Bush and his cronies should go unpunished.

exactly!! and it does not mean that we (or someone else on this planet can't call world 9-11 and ask for the "cops".....and arrest this gang. This is an "international " incident. and belongs in the international court of law. Now, if bush is doing something IN America , and was not "running interference" in another country.......then it is the American's business. and Americans should be smart enough to deal with it.

 

[Reverend Blair]

That's the spirit. We should have arrested Bush when he was in Canada...not on his official trip because he had diplomatic immunity on that, but one of trips up here to kill our wildlife. We were actually obligated to under international conventions.

 

[Ocean Breeze]

Let's do a what if...

What if , most nations issued a warrant for the gang members arrest. ......and the minute any of them left the US , they would be arrested and put in jail..........just the way , the US takes prisoners and puts them in their version of "gulag" now.....without legal council......without visits from the red cross, etc etc .....without anyone from human rights to visit.... (same scenario the US is using. kinda a taste of their own medicine)

.........and then simply take their time . Keep them locked up indefinately on the basis that they are a threat to the world at large. (which they are )

(sheesh, just thinking about it, is a feel better thing) ;-)

 

[jimmoyer]

To the honorable Moghrabi:

Your potential for interference with muggings is highly selective. Saddam gets a bye.

To the predictable, and therefore "trusted" offshore Ocean Breeze:

Your presumptions are too numerous and would require too tedious an effort.

But here's a sampling that contradicts your logic:

1. the massacre of muslims by the Serbs
You'd like to use the Hague world court AFTER THE FACT.

2. Rwanda.
AFTER THE FACT. Please don't run interference within that country's borders. And Reverend Blair's fake fact that America prohibited anyone from acting there is a legend only bespeaking of his bias.


3. the ethnic cleansing in Yugoslavia, and Iraq.
Don't be running traffic lights there.

 

[Ocean Breeze]

Jim : wouldn't focus on the "mugging" analogy.....as it is not exactly in sinc with the situation in hand. WOULD however start to focus on dealing with the "criminal" .......(and he is , by legal standards ) that is running your nation. Now, IF you are content with these kind of credentials for a leader...........don't speak of higher ethical standards , as that is hypocracy .

 

[jimmoyer]

For you the "mugging" analogy is not in sync, because you have grown accustomed to looking at it your own way.

But for those who lived through that "mugging" they would put both you and I in the category of foreigners who know squat.

If the media played 24 hours a day the mass burial sites of Saddam that the relatives are still digging up, you would then be subject to such pressure of knowlege.

Your side of the argument is at least if not more influenced by the headlines than those who you denounce.

 

[Ocean Breeze]

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=05/06/08/141203

very interesting interview with two hostages that were released.

(seems Bush brought terrorism into Iraq. ( that is a no brainer)

and it seems that the "terrorists" supported Bush at election time........ as both bush and terrorists want war.


not a comforting thought , is it???

 

[jimmoyer]

I cannot think that an alternative history line would include a Saddam for 10 more years, thus delaying for the world's ignorance what we are seeing today.

The world thinks not of those things.
In fact when Tito died, everyone feared the breakup of Yugoslavia. It was a matter of time when the strong man's grip gave way to the natural course of all those Balkan balking cultures.
And so did this happen with the Soviet Union.
And so with Yugoslavia.

The world like an Ostrich benefited from the strong man to keep a lid on the ethnic battlegrounds they dominated.

They, the world, benefited in only one way.

Ignorance.

And no Headlines.

And therefore it did not exist.

The world was happy.

 

[Ocean Breeze]

jim: sorry, but you still don't "get it"

It is HOW bush went about all this that is subject to intense scrutiny and criticism. Why bring up mass graves in Iraq , when bush went into Iraq on some WMD issue??

........and then spun a different yarn as things unfolded until he hit something the Americans would buy. (mind you , many Americans simply went on this crusade with him without asking any critical questions. Blind support of a leader is dangerous. We have seen that throughout history.

btw: WHAT mission has been accomplished???

 

[Ocean Breeze]

Re: RE: America at War

The terrorists depend on you for that kind of logic.

Uh oh, hold on there Nellie...

You're no terrorist advocate, but if I were a terrorist I'd like to know that people like you understand.

there ya go............"with us or with the terrorists".......and you bought into this bushism , lock stock and barrel.

(but bushisms are simplistic and many do like"simple")

Reality is that if we do not take the time to "understand" what makes these people angry enough to become terrorists......we can never address the root of the problem........and the cycle of violence will continue.

Not sure how it can be stopped now.......with the degree of rage that seems to be apparent. It is the anger that must be addressed. Anger like this gains momentum. It is no joy to see such anger at the US. Things should be a lot calmer now.

Has Spain perpetuated the cycle of violence since it's 3-11?? No, they were a lot smarter as to how they handled it. They also KNOW ......that it will be an ongoing problem for some time.

 

[moghrabi]

To the honorable Jimmoyer,

We are not talking about the criminal Saddam. He is in jail waiting his turn. We are talking about a more dangerous criminal running the most powerful nation. A moron, an idiot and a crack head sitting and commanding a powerful army. He lied, killed, maimed and so on for personal gains and not to arrest Saddam since he supported him all along in the past.

 

[jimmoyer]

Nope, Ocean Breeze, not at all.

Bush is not a person I can or want to defend.

I'm looking around the corner of the billboard of the mustache you painted on Bush.

Behind that billboard which blocks your view of the wide horizon behind it are other beasts that need your attention too.

I don't know how many chess games when the ego of the player rejoiced at stealing a piece only to be checkmated the next move.

You need to look at this terrorist issue more closely, for it lives independently of the bubble where we live.

No one seems to know that all of us in the western world who seem divided on this war in Iraq are more alike in habit, custom, culture and even in emotion than those who live "over there."

I don't rush to say "how sad...", because we both know it is an assumption to be so patronizing, n'est pas?

But when I fire at you a little spear on this terrorism thing, I don't really see you looking at it other than your accustomed way.

Bush is...aw hell, I'm bushed....

Too Bushed, and that'll never be my job to defend an idiot who blows the word, "dissemble."

My sphincter quickens.

 

[moghrabi]

No one seems to know that all of us in the western world who seem divided on this war in Iraq are more alike in habit, custom, culture and even in emotion than those who live "over there." - Jimmoyer

This above statement is the cause of terrorism. You are dividing humanity as them and us.

 

[Ocean Breeze]

Bush is not a person I can or want to defend.

BRAVO !!


There is no question that SH was doing things that should have been addressed some time ago. It is the process of how all this evolved, the sanctions.......the whole package....that is so disquieting.

All we can do now......is hope that some semblance of order is restored , so the IRAQIS can start feeling they are safe again......and look to a better future. The Iraqis have a great deal of adjusting to do. One cannot destroy a gov't, a military, so many buildings,kill that many of a population ( all those poor children killed and maimed too) ........and replace with something different without them going through a lot of "adjustment "problems. They will be grieving for their lost ones. Any change takes so much time.......and one as drastic as this is bound to be turbulent.

Their version of "Freedom" or democracy might be quite different from ours..........and that MUST BE RESPECTED now.