Almost all new jobs created during the pandemic were in the public sector, report finds.

The_Foxer

Council Member
Aug 9, 2022
1,298
790
113
Sure - here you go.


You can read the act, here's some bullet forms for you - it's cut and dry. "extra billing" or billing outside of the provincial formula for insured services is illegal.

Now please actually take the time to read this time.

Canada does not allow for a 'two tiered" system, and while occasionally some operate for a time in a grey area or against the law eventually they're all brought into compliance. Did you read about that bc example i gave you? Even paying to jump the line is verboten.
 

Taxslave2

Electoral Member
Aug 13, 2022
371
190
43
That is a big 10/4 in a gale .
Knew some commercial guys from Pt.Hardy sprung a plank about half way across and would have died if there hadn’t been another boat nearby. Went down like a stone.
 

The_Foxer

Council Member
Aug 9, 2022
1,298
790
113
Another private facility that does orthopaedic surgeries....for profit.
They're chiropractors. Chiropractic services aren't considered to be medical services under the act. They're not regulated.

For got's sake man, what's next? You gonna claim that a toe nail painting place is a medical hospital?? Don't you think you've looked uneducated enough on this?
 

petros

The Central Scrutinizer
Nov 21, 2008
102,018
7,300
113
Moccasin Flats
Chiropractors do orthopaedic surgery? Since when?


Chiropractic Clinic, Family Physicians/General Practitioners, Integrative Medicine Clinic, Maternity Care, Orthopedic Surgery Clinic, Specialist Clinic
Accord to "the Act", its a hospital

hospital includes any facility or portion thereof that provides hospital care, including acute, rehabilitative or chronic care, but does not include

  • (a) a hospital or institution primarily for the mentally disordered, or
  • (b) a facility or portion thereof that provides nursing home intermediate care service or adult residential care service, or comparable services for children; (hôpital)


BTW, you need to read the act or get someone to read it for you and explain it.

What is extra billing and how does it relate to section 13a?

extra-billing means the billing for an insured health service rendered to an insured person by a medical practitioner or a dentist in an amount in addition to any amount paid or to be paid for that service by the health care insurance plan of a province; (surfacturation)

Any extra billing outside of the insurance formula has to be reported by the province. Its not illegal in any way shape or form.

All that means is the Feds will only transfer the minimum to the Province for an insured procedure.
 
Last edited:

pgs

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 29, 2008
24,742
5,457
113
B.C.
Knew some commercial guys from Pt.Hardy sprung a plank about half way across and would have died if there hadn’t been another boat nearby. Went down like a stone.
Good thing . We went through once in a heavy storm , it really got ugly once we rounded Rose Spit and entered Heckat Straight .
 

The_Foxer

Council Member
Aug 9, 2022
1,298
790
113
Accord to "the Act", its a hospital
nope. Orthopedics isn't considered rehabilitative as envisioned by the act by itself. And obviously it's not chronic or acute.

Hell - they don't even call themselves a hospital. They identify as a clinic. That should have been your first clue.

Any extra billing outside of the insurance formula has to be reported by the province. Its not illegal in any way shape or form.

it is. Unless you prefer the term unlawful. Sorry. I did post an entire article discussing this and explaining it earlier with an example from vancouver. It's a little bit complicated but you should be able to understand it. But - Seems like you just can't read.

Look - i'm sorry. I've tried. I've tried very hard. You are just not smart enough for this level of conversation. You can't even get your head around the basics and you can't read what's been given to you. You think the catholic church is a for profit org. You think chiropractic clinics are hospitals. You think orthopedic care falls under the definition of a 'hospital'. You think that anyone can start a hospital up and make money charging the public. That's just too much wrong for me to continue to fight. You will have to continue to live in ignorance on the subject i'm afraid.
 

petros

The Central Scrutinizer
Nov 21, 2008
102,018
7,300
113
Moccasin Flats
Clearly you opened your yap and stuffed your foot in it.

Its obvious there are private facilities earning a profit in which nurses are paid outside the Provincial formula which is reimbursed by the Feds.

Are you still denying you made an error or are you going to keep moving goal posts?

Even "The Act" doesnt back your claims.
 

The_Foxer

Council Member
Aug 9, 2022
1,298
790
113
Clearly you opened your yap and stuffed your foot in it.
IF by 'foot' you mean 'accurate facts which have now been proven a dozen times over', sure.

Sorry kiddo - every single example you came up with got shot down. So it's only "obvious" in your imagination. The Canada health act simply doesn't allow for it. There's been court case after court case. For those services covered by the act there is no 'private' care.

The act entirely backs up my claims, and there's no goalposts being moved. I was very clear from the get go.

But if lying to yourself and deluding yourself makes you feel better and helps you sleep at night, you go right ahead. Sure - chiropractic clinics are 'hospitals'. Sure, the catholics sell medical services covered under the act to private individuals all the time. Sure anyone can just go to a private clinic and book a hip surgery whenever they like if they can pay for it. And sure, you're allowed to pay with unicorn farts and fairy dust because why not.

There you go.
 

petros

The Central Scrutinizer
Nov 21, 2008
102,018
7,300
113
Moccasin Flats
If the Act proved your point you quote it but it doesnt.

You disagree with their definitions of words used in the Act and you disagree with the wording of the Act. That is not the Act backing you at all.

Would you like help in understanding the words and how they are used in the Act?
 

The_Foxer

Council Member
Aug 9, 2022
1,298
790
113
Of course it does. Your lack of comprehension doesn't change that. As i've said there's also dozens of court cases. I provided you with one.

It's not up to me (or you) to 'agree' or 'disagree' with the wording. The wording has been interpreted by legal professionals and court judges and they say you're wrong. I'm simply using their definitions.

I'm sorry, you're just not smart enough for this conversation. Maybe pick something easier to talk about.
 

petros

The Central Scrutinizer
Nov 21, 2008
102,018
7,300
113
Moccasin Flats
So why arent you quoting the Act instead of being a fucking goof?

There are terms in the Act you seem to not understand or ignore. Insured as in insured health services and insured person.

The Act says a provider cant bill the insurer (province) more than what is the set rate (extra billing).

There are plenty of extras they (Feds) dont cover. The patient pays these costs if they choose them.

They define a hospital and hospital services but you think these definition are wrong.

Try reading the Act and start with their glossary.

Call me another derogatory name and I guarantee youll never post here again.
 

The_Foxer

Council Member
Aug 9, 2022
1,298
790
113
I am quoting the act. It's pretty simple. And I've kindly held your hand through each of your examples and explained each of them.

Sorry kid, you just aren't up to this level of discussion.

There are plenty of extras they (Feds) dont cover. The patient pays these costs if they choose them.

Not for insured services. We've been over this. So no they can't.

And if they could, which they can't, then they truly would be private and not relevant to the discussion about 'gov't paid' employees. Would it.

Sorry - this is just over your head.
Call me another derogatory name and I guarantee youll never post here again.

Sounds like someone needs a cookie and a nap. It's not my fault you can't grasp this. I've been very patient explaining this to you in simple terms. If you can't understand it that's not 'derogatory', that's just observation. So you can take your threats and shove them up your ass.
 

petros

The Central Scrutinizer
Nov 21, 2008
102,018
7,300
113
Moccasin Flats
No. You arent quoting the act. If you were you'd quote it verbatim.

Ahhhh, another goal post change. You realized "insured".

Who? Who cant do extra billing under penalty of law?
  • amount under subsection (1) or (2) without first undertaking to consult the minister responsible for health care in the province concerned.
  • Marginal note:Separate accounting in Public Accounts
    (4) Any amount deducted under subsection (1) or (2) from a cash contribution in any of the three consecutive fiscal years the first of which commences on April 1, 1984 shall be accounted for separately in respect of each province in the Public Accounts for each of those fiscal years in and after which the amount is deducted.
  • Marginal note:Refund to province
    (5) Where, in any of the three fiscal years referred to in subsection (4), extra-billing or user charges have, in the opinion of the Minister, been eliminated in a province, the total amount deducted in respect of extra-billing or user charges, as the case may be, shall be paid to the province.
  • Marginal note:Saving
    (6) Nothing in this section restricts the power of the Governor in Council to make any order under section 15.
  • 1984, c. 6, s. 20
Marginal note:When deduction made

21 Any deduction from a cash contribution under section 20 may be made in the fiscal year in which the matter that gave rise to the deduction occurred or in the following two fiscal years.

  • 1984, c. 6, s. 21

Where does it say illegal? Are deductions from transfers dictated by a judge and professionals as fines under a Statute?
 

The_Foxer

Council Member
Aug 9, 2022
1,298
790
113
Ahhhh, another goal post change. You realized "insured".

I've said that since the very beginning. Go back and look. And about a dozen times since. I even said right at the beginning that there may be medical services not covered by the act (the insured) which are different but that this is not what we were discussing.

And this is the frustration with you - i've said all this clearly from the get go but you don't seem to understand or comprehend it, and NOW you're acting like it's something new


Who? Who cant do extra billing under penalty of law?
sigh. Why not go read that example i gave you. That should make it pretty clear.

Or would you just prefer to threaten me again to cover the fact you can't or won't read what has been provided

And you literally quote sections of the act which state that it's a violation and discuss penalties.

It's been used many times - several provinces have been found to be in violation of the act for not enforcing the extra billing clauses and had serious penalties levied against them. BC had to pay 250 million, alberat and other provinces had to pay large amounts. Businesses have been forced to shut down or bring themselves in compliance.

This is night and day simple.

And just in case you didn't know - the word "Act" in our country in the context of the gov't refers to an "Act of Parliament". It's literally a law. That's what we call our laws. So when you violate the act you are behaving in a manner which is not legal. Or illegal if you will. Or unlawful. Or however you'd like to phrase it. And there are penalties that go with that.

Anyway - obviously you're the kind of person who when losing an argument just decides to threaten people so there's no point continuing. I know better than to waste my time talking to someone who doesn't care about facts and is a fan of 'cancel culture'.

At the end of the day my original point was that gov't paid services don't produce wealth, they tax the free market which slows it down. Therefore if the free market which funds the gov't is growing slower than the gov't spending you have a problem.

If you don't believe that and you prefer the idea that gov't spending is the same is free market capitalism then you should consider moving to a communist or socialist country. Many of them are fond of threatening those they disagree with as well so you'll fit right in.
 

Taxslave2

Electoral Member
Aug 13, 2022
371
190
43
So, when a foreigner wind up in one of our hospitals and pays with a credit card for ER, does that not make the hospital “for profit “?
 

The_Foxer

Council Member
Aug 9, 2022
1,298
790
113
So, when a foreigner wind up in one of our hospitals and pays with a credit card for ER, does that not make the hospital “for profit “?
No, they do that at cost recovery not for profit. Basically they're paying what the gov't would have paid for those services. So theoretically if they've calculated it correctly money in equals money out, no profit. It is dictated to the hospital what they can charge for the service. And the cost is the same as what the hospital can bill the gov't for. In fact i believe in most provinces if i'm not mistaken the gov't will pay for it and you owe the gov't the money back. So for the hospital it is basically no different. In such a case you'd owe the province of bc XXX dollars, not Vancouver General. This would be different than the states for example where the same procedure may cost a different amount at two different hospitals in the same state and the hospital would pay you directly.

But - points for using your noggin :) That could potentially have been a loop hole.
 

petros

The Central Scrutinizer
Nov 21, 2008
102,018
7,300
113
Moccasin Flats
NDP health critic France Gelinas criticized the idea of further privatization.

"They'll bleed staff away from our public hospitals and urgent care centres, making the health-care crisis much worse," she said in a written statement.

"If private surgery clinics accept your OHIP card for your procedure, they bill you for your room, the painkillers you take, your meals, the physical therapy you need and more."

Parts of health care are delivered by private companies, including many long-term care homes and nursing agencies. Hospitals have been using nursing agencies more and more during the staffing crisis, health-care officials say.

But those nurses come at a premium cost, said Dr. Michael Warner, an intensive care physician at Toronto's Michael Garron Hospital.

"Why is it that my hospital, for example, has at least three private agencies providing nurses every day to our hospital at a premium that's costing the hospital more than they'll have to pay our nurses?" Warner said.

"It's costing them sometimes double or triple the amount to pay these private companies."

Warner said some agencies are charging $110 per hour plus HST for a nurse.

Cathryn Hoy, the president of Ontario Nurses' Association, a union that represents more than 60,000 nurses and health-care workers, said some agencies are now charging hospitals more than $200 per hour, nearly four times what they charged before the pandemic.

Ford said there was little he could do about the situation.

"I can't control per se the private sector," he said when asked if it was price gouging.

And then choked on a bee.
 
  • Sad
Reactions: Taxslave2

The_Foxer

Council Member
Aug 9, 2022
1,298
790
113
NDP health critic France Gelinas criticized the idea of further privatization.

"They'll bleed staff away from our public hospitals and urgent care centres, making the health-care crisis much worse," she said in a written statement.

"If private surgery clinics accept your OHIP card for your procedure, they bill you for your room, the painkillers you take, your meals, the physical therapy you need and more."
If A hospital accepts your ohip card they bill you for a private room, internet, a tv, all kinds of things , etc etc. Meals are not medical services. That's why even gov't hospitals have a cafeteria. She's just wrong. It's the ndp so that shouldn't come as a shock. It's still the gov't paying for it and setting the prices outside of the free market for medical services.

As to the nursing contractors, it's the same thing as a janitorial contractor. It's still the gov't paying the bill and setting the prices outside of the free market. they're just negotiating a higher rate for the nurses and pocketing a fee - the unions do that too. And that's the problem as far as the ndp is concerned, they don't mind the gov't paying the money, they just want it in the pockets of their union friends and not someone else.

If the gov't pays a contractor to build a new hospital for them, the contractor will make money (hopefully). But - it's STILL GOV"T MONEY. This is not coming from free market activity. Which means it came from taxes etc which means it's still a drag on the economy AND it can lead to inflation.
And then choked on a bee.
Yes, and while that was in fact one of the most hilarious things ever there's no evidence of whether the bee was a private individual or a gov't drone :)

Let me try to put this in the most basic way - imagine if the gov't provided EVERYTHING and paid for EVERY business. All businesses everywhere is now run by the gov't on a cost recovery basis. Where would the money come from? Even if they tax the workers they're only getting back a portion of what they gave the workers in the first place. And what would be the motivation to start a new business or create new industry?

That is the issue we're discussing. While gov't employees like nurses may do things we consider valuable, they don't create the wealth the gov't needs to tax to be able to pay for it.
 

Dixie Cup

House Member
Sep 16, 2006
4,532
2,565
113
Edmonton
Actually, Canada has a two-tiered health system, that even our government acknowledges which is why the NDP wants the government to cover more serices. Chiropractors, Physiotherapists, Dentists - are all private so if you have no private insurance, you pay out of pocket. But Private insurance usually cover about 80% (some 90%) of that actual cost - the rest is out of pocket.