Abortion

[tibear]

Peapod,

How dare you assume that these people were Christians, I know many people who have no religious background who are against teenage sex because they believe it costs them way too much money.

One of the most bigotted people I know is someone I work with who absolutely detests any type of organized religion. His attitude is one shared by many on this forum, "Anyone can do anything they want as long as it doesn't affect me. Including my paycheque, my physical health, don't come around me begging to support your habit, don't rob my place to support your habit, etc."

He made the most unbelievable comment I've ever heard when we were talking about the Paul Bernardo cases a couple of years ago. He didn't know anything about the case and when I said that Paul and his wife had killed at least 3 young girls his reply was, "Were the girls pretty or ugly?"

His attitude of "Laissez faire" is starting to be more and more prevelant in our society. We simply don't give a damn about our neighbour and this gets us to the situation that we have with this coworker.

 

[tibear]

Twila,

I'm glad you've had a positive experience with regards to your parenting experience.

I'm glad to hear about the "little old Lady", we need more people letting others know that not only are children gifts from God but everyone is.

If only all of the planned parenthood people would try to pass on this vision of motherhood. That child are gifts rather than obstacles that need to be overcome.

Unfortunately, people like Peapod don't want the attitude of love to be spread in our society, only attitudes of isolation. Its every man/woman for themselves. You live your life and I'll live mine. What a lonely existence our lives would be if this was true.

 

[zenfisher]

zen,

Lets take a look at your scenarios.

Firstly, children born with medical issues. I have friends and family that deal with children born with FAS and Crack addition. The first couple of weeks are tough for the parents of the crack child but after that there are no problems. As for FAS, AIDS, etc, those children do have some issues, but I don't it affects the adoption rate quite as much as you might think. Yes, there are many wards of the state, however, these tend to be children age 6 and up that have serious problems that have developed over time.

That isn't the case down here. In fact many couples go outside the US to adopt. I know for a fact that scenario is on the rise in Canada. Having met a few couples who have adopted babies from Kosovo and Russia.

Now teenage mothers, you believe that these children are ridiculed and made fun of because they are pregnant. Perhaps instead of killing the child we should try to correct the behaviour of the people who are rediculing her. Just as our society doesn't accept bullying, why do we accept this behaviour?? These young mothers should feel to accept that yes, they made a judgement that wasn't right for them, but that they can now follow up this bad judgement with a good judgement and give their child a good home.

This has absolutely nothing to do with what I said.

I hope your children don't have the same attitude towards life as you do, because the first time you have pain or discomfort I would sleep with one eye open. Pain and suffering are part of life, why you believe this is something to avoid at all costs is beyond me. Would you kill yourself if your spouse died?? How about if you lost your job?? How about if you got into an accident and lost both legs?? How about if you had an operation in the past and now have HIV?? All of these scenarios can happen and do happen. Why is it that we have to live through them but an infant that isn't born yet must be killed to "prevent it from a life of misery"??

As I have mentioned to you, Edge and I have no children.We have made a conscience decision not have children because the world is overpopulated. I sleep fine ... and if I had children I would still sleep fine...knowing that I support a world of freedom, rather than on based on a dictatorial religious doctrine.

Using your teenage scenario, if a young mother gets pregnant and has a child. Then after two or three months the mother begins to resent the baby and all of the work and responsibility the child brings. Should she then have the right to kill the child? Hopefully even you will say no to this, however, why is this any different than your abortion option. In both cases the mother makes a decision to kill her child, only the age of the child is different.

When did I mention anything about killing the child? Your point is an entirely different issue. You might want to start looking into the instances of child abuse. What about the kid in Florida who killed his Grandparents at the age of twelve ? What about the Florida couple that was just caught for abusing five of their adopted children? How about the numbers of babies that have been killed by a Mother/Father/ babysitter by shaking them to get them to stop crying. These are instances that have been on the news in just the last week. See I can deflect from the argument on hand as well.

 

[peapod]

How dare you assume that these people were Christians.

I assume that because thats exactly how I hear them talk all the time....judgemental....and trying to force their beliefs onto the rest of it...and like twila I have seen nothing but good responses in these situations. You live in another world...one way back there. Most people don't judge single unwed mothers...its just another name like gay marriage..it has no bad vibes to me? Why should it?? Its none of my business!! No you are happy to repress, shame and guilt...this brings better results right?

 

[Twila]

The only religious arguement you can even remotely associate with abortion is the "Thou shall not kill" aspect, which our society has universally accepted. (Unless you can think of a situation where it is OK to go and shoot someone???)

In Ezekiel 37:8-10 God re-animates dead bones into living soldiers, but the passage makes the interesting note that they were not alive as persons until their first breath.

From this we can gather that God does not consider a person living until the first breath, which does not happen until after birth.....

If only all of the planned parenthood people would try to pass on this vision of motherhood. That child are gifts rather than obstacles that need to be overcome.

so they pass the vision on. the young impressionably hormonally imbalanced teenage fall hook line and sinker for it. Only to discover that it was a crock (in their opinion, which is they're perception of reality, which in fact makes their perception their reality) and grows to despise their situation and turns to drugs and or alchohol or worse, commits the worst sin....suicide. We now have a child that was raised under the worst of conditions and low and behold 50% more likely to commit suicide (which is the the percentage rate for children who've had a parent commit suicide)

Again, we are no where. We all think differently because our perceptions of reality are different. And because we are FREE to make our own choices. THose who are religious should know about free will.......

 

[tibear]

Peapod,

Please show me one of MY posts where I say we should repress, shame or guilt pregnant mothers.

Please stop putting words into my mouth.

If you read my posts you will find that I have been nothing but supportive towards these woman both before and after the birth of their children. To bad we can't say the same for you and your attitude of

Its none of my business!!

Where these woman are simply ignored becuase it is "none of our business".

 

[tibear]

Twila,

Do you really want to take the bible literally?? Is this really the way to debate the topic. I think we both know that the bible isn't meant to be taken literally. If it was then without question you would be anti-homosexuality, pro-slavery, pro-polygamy,.....

 

[peapod]

You repress, guilt and shame all women by trying to take away "their" choice over what happens in their own body. You do it because of a set of "rules" from a book. That works for you, great, allow others to follow "their" own beliefs.

 

[Twila]

ah, but you said

The only religious arguement you can even remotely associate with abortion is the "Thou shall not kill" aspect

I was just showing you that that statement was wrong.

The bible has been used by people to prove what they want it to. Both for and against. Its my believe it's designed this way on purpose.

 

[tibear]

Peapod,

The belief that a fetus is a child and should be protected has nothing to do with religious believe. As stated earlier, from a religious standpoint, there is no harm because only the physical body is harmed and not the "soul" of the baby.

As for allowing people to do what they want with their body, again do you really believe that. Should people be allowed to kill themselves whenever they want?? The senior that committed suicide the other week in Ottawa was allowed to do so only because he had been to at least 3 psychiatrists who said that he was of sound mind and he had severe health issues. If he had been 20 years old and in good health, the authorities would not have permitted him to commit suicide.

So please don't give me the "we have complete control over our bodies", because we don't. Are you in favour of child prostitution?? NO. Why not? Its their body, can't they choose what to do with their own body??

Do you see how foolish your arguement is? We don't have complete control of our bodies, nobody does.

It is your complete lack of compassion for these woman and YOUR guilt and shame that causes most of these woman to have abortions.

 

[tibear]

Twila,

Please find one of MY posts where I make a religious arguement against abortion.

It is the contention of many of you on this forum that I'm debating this topic from a religious perspective and I don't think you will find that I have quoted the bible or Church document in any of my posts. Rather I have made my arguements from a strictly secular perspective. Rather it is the pro-abortion side that is using relegious arguements in this debate.

 

[Jay]

Re: RE: Abortion

The only religious arguement you can even remotely associate with abortion is the "Thou shall not kill" aspect, which our society has universally accepted. (Unless you can think of a situation where it is OK to go and shoot someone???)



In Ezekiel 37:8-10 God re-animates dead bones into living soldiers, but the passage makes the interesting note that they were not alive as persons until their first breath.

From this we can gather that God does not consider a person living until the first breath, which does not happen until after birth.....

I had to jump in here Twila. Doesn't God in the bible say “I knew you before you were born".?

In Ezekiel he is referring to the resurrection, and those who are dead are dead till the resurrection. (I don't mean to preach to you mind you)

 

[Twila]

Jay,

It does say that, however you need to read the entire quote to understand who God is talking to and what it applies to.

 

[tibear]

I'm glad we settled the fact that I've never made this a religious debate and have kept it to a secular discussion.

Now that this has been settled and we won't get anymore of the "ramming your religious beliefs" nonsense, we can continue the debate without this distraction.

 

[tibear]

Being that time of the year, I've started to receive various receipts from different charitable organizations for contributions that I made during 2004.

With all of the people on this forum constantly berating the religious right about their attitudes and lack of support towards the unwed mothers, so called "unwanted" children, etc. I just wondered how all of you NDP loyalists feel about the fact the largest contributers to charities are the Canadians who claim to be "religious" and practice their faith. This is fact supposed by many sources including Revenue and Statistics Canada(or whatever their latest names are).

Without these generous people, many of our charities would not be around and many, many people would suffer.

All I've heard from the Left is that the religious right is nothing but a bunch of self centred bullies. Does the fact that "we" righties basically support most of support system for the poor have any redeeming quality in your "leftist" world??

Yes, the "righties" may stand up for what we believe in, just like the "lefties" but it is the "righties" that put our money where our mouths are when is comes to helping the poor in this country.

 

[Reverend Blair]

Funny...I have a whack of receipts too, tibear.

 

[tibear]

RB,

I'm not talking about political donations.

Seriously, no comment with regards to the fact that the "religious" Canadians regularly give many times the amount that the non-religious Canadians give to charity.

Here is something I found on the CBC website:

Religious factors show up in the data as the most significant determinant in charitable giving. Donors with religious affiliations gave twice as much as donors with no religious affiliation. The 11 per cent who said they are very religious were responsible for 29 per cent of all donations. The 1997 survey looked at donors by religious attenders. Weekly attenders gave most of their donations to religious organizations but their average donation to non-religious organizations was still higher than the average donation to all organizations made by non-attenders and infrequent attenders.

Kind of goes against all of the preachings of the people on this forum doesn't it. That the religious right don't care about anything but their beliefs.

 

[Reverend Blair]

Doing some religious ramming there, tibear?

 

[tibear]

Not ramming anything.

Just trying to make a counter arguement that this thread has made many times, that the religious right are nothing but cold hearted, belittling people who shame those that don't follow "their rules" and don't do anything to help them:

You are about repression, guilt, shame.

Why do right-wingers frown on teenage mothers for being horrible, slutty sinners, yet also frown on teens (and single parents) who have had abortions for being baby killers?

I don't see any attempt to help babies that were not aborted and instead born into poverty, single parent on welfare situations, abusive families, etc. It's like they stop existing once they pop out of the vagina, at least to most of the extreme "pro-life" right-wing groups.

The "pro life" movement is essentially a "pro birth" movement. No one cares about what happens to the baby or the mother once the baby slides out of the vagina. Either that, or they really suck at showing that they care.

 

[Reverend Blair]

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