Abortion

[peapod]

tibear tibear what am I gonna do with you?? I am talking about what repression, guilt, shame does to the human spirit, emotionally tibear. What is the purpose of conflicting people with these things??

Tibear I am not trying to impose my beliefs on to you. You can believe whatever you like. In fact such things are usually personal and have only to do with your own "experience". I didn't start a abortion thread you did. I don't ever discuss abortion, I have my own "personal" beliefs, and I am not threated by what other's believe.

Again tibear, I believe that a women has the right to choice for herself based on what she believes.

You believe the opposite....whats the point??

 

[Reverend Blair]

Here we go 'round the mulberry bush....

And what if she gets AIDS from the tattoo needle and has sex and passes that on and gets pregnant and has an abortion while simultaneously driving in the INDY 500 and smoking a joint and crashes into the wall off turn three and one of the wheels comes loose and flies into the crowd killing 17 innocent bystanders? What if some of those innoent bystanders are pregnant? What if they are pregnant and don't know it yet? What if they were about to become pregnant in the drunken post-race revelry that follows the race every year? What about all those unfertilized eggs? What about all those sperm that will never get a chance to swim?

Undoubtedly we should keep women from driving in the INDY 500 because every sperm is sacred.

 

[zenfisher]

tibear...lets say everything you want to happen on the abortion issue passes. Women bring their babies to full term and put them up for adoption. As we know, people do some odd things to their bodies. What about all the babies born with fetal alcohol syndrome? What a bout all the crack babies? what about all the babies born with aids and other STD's? Do you really think the average couple would be willing to adopt them? This is already happening now children that become wards of the state because they are on wanted. Do you really think it is in their best interest to bring these babies into a world that is not prepared to give them a chance ? What about teen pregnancies... is it really in the best interest of the teenager to force her to bring a child into the world?

What happens to babies that are brought into this world and the Mother begins to resent for destoying her life ? She was fourteen at the time she thought it would be a good thing for her to have a baby.

You have already admited that their are situations in which killing is justified. Whether it be in the interest of the mother, survival , self defense or the protection of your country.

Under the law as it stands... No one is forcing you or your wife to have an abortion. Yet you think it is perfectly acceptable to force all women and teenage girls to bring a baby into this world whether they want it or not.

Your argument doesn't take into account any suffering that future baby might and in a lot of cases, will have to endure.

 

[Reverend Blair]

What's that got to do with the INDY 500, Zen? ;-)

 

[zenfisher]

:wink: 2 types of speed?

 

[Reverend Blair]

Something has to explain Super Tex. Now there's a case for planned parenthood.

 

[tibear]

zen,

Lets take a look at your scenarios.

Firstly, children born with medical issues. I have friends and family that deal with children born with FAS and Crack addition. The first couple of weeks are tough for the parents of the crack child but after that there are no problems. As for FAS, AIDS, etc, those children do have some issues, but I don't it affects the adoption rate quite as much as you might think. Yes, there are many wards of the state, however, these tend to be children age 6 and up that have serious problems that have developed over time.

Now teenage mothers, you believe that these children are ridiculed and made fun of because they are pregnant. Perhaps instead of killing the child we should try to correct the behaviour of the people who are rediculing her. Just as our society doesn't accept bullying, why do we accept this behaviour?? These young mothers should feel to accept that yes, they made a judgement that wasn't right for them, but that they can now follow up this bad judgement with a good judgement and give their child a good home.

I hope your children don't have the same attitude towards life as you do, because the first time you have pain or discomfort I would sleep with one eye open. Pain and suffering are part of life, why you believe this is something to avoid at all costs is beyond me. Would you kill yourself if your spouse died?? How about if you lost your job?? How about if you got into an accident and lost both legs?? How about if you had an operation in the past and now have HIV?? All of these scenarios can happen and do happen. Why is it that we have to live through them but an infant that isn't born yet must be killed to "prevent it from a life of misery"??

Using your teenage scenario, if a young mother gets pregnant and has a child. Then after two or three months the mother begins to resent the baby and all of the work and responsibility the child brings. Should she then have the right to kill the child? Hopefully even you will say no to this, however, why is this any different than your abortion option. In both cases the mother makes a decision to kill her child, only the age of the child is different.

 

[Reverend Blair]

As for FAS, AIDS, etc, those children do have some issues, but I don't it affects the adoption rate quite as much as you might think. Yes, there are many wards of the state, however, these tend to be children age 6 and up that have serious problems that have developed over time.

That might explain the Unser family, actually. They all talk kind of slow, have a tendency towards violence, and there is definitely alcoholism in the family. Plus Bobby Unser is always saying things like, "You have to slow down to speed up," which only really makes sense if you're on something mind-altering.

Now teenage mothers, you believe that these children are ridiculed and made fun of because they are pregnant.

They are also less likely to finish high school, less likely to complete post-secondary education, more likely to be poor, more likely to resort to substance abuse, and so on down the line. It gets passed on to their kids who tend to imitate these behaviours.

All that brings us back to the Unser family. Look at the last two generations...one real driver out of a bevy who attempted it and he's admitted to showing up for races drunk. Six or seven arrests for drugs, public drunkenness, spousal abuse, etc among this latest batch.

These young mothers should feel to accept that yes, they made a judgement that wasn't right for them, but that they can now follow up this bad judgement with a good judgement and give their child a good home.

The Unser women have always quietly suffered all of these things. The wedding date is usually set for about the middle of the second trimester. Then the real fun begins.

How about if you got into an accident and lost both legs??

Actually that was an Andretti. We're talking about the Unsers here.

Why is it that we have to live through them but an infant that isn't born yet must be killed to "prevent it from a life of misery"??

Given the choice between having to call Bobby Unser, "Uncle," and certain death? Hmmm....

In both cases the mother makes a decision to kill her child, only the age of the child is different.

Bullcrap.

 

[tibear]

RB,

If this is your attitude towards other people's pain. I feel sorry for you.

And I've been accused of being cold and heartless.

 

[Reverend Blair]

So have I, tibear. I guess I have been just now too. Probably will be again. So what? I'm not cold and heartless at all, if I was I wouldn't support a woman's right to choose. Instead I'd try to force religious beliefs from a dying culture on them.

 

[tibear]

RB,

Where is your support for the unborn child???? Or are you forcing your beliefs onto these defenseless people and allowing their death to take place without so much as a debate.

Would you also stand by as a mother uses corporal punishment on their child?? Or would you force your moral beliefs that children shouldn't be hit??

It's much easier to say, "It's none of my business." But true compassion sometimes calls us to do things we find uncomfortable.

I'm not cold and heartless at all, if I was I wouldn't support a woman's right to choose.

This just reinforces your heartlessness, instead of trying to help the mother and child, you show apathy. Most women don't get abortions because of health or monetary issues, its because of people's attitudes towards unwed mothers. And your attitude just perpetuates the problem.

Let's show love to both the mother and child in these situations and see how much better the world would be.

 

[Reverend Blair]

Nonsense, I have a long history of being nice to unwed mothers. I went to Catholic school, remember?

I don't buy into you insistence that fetuses are children though and I see the only ones who can make the distinction as being the woman and her doctor, so it has to be their choice, their decision.

It is not up to you or me to impose those beliefs on people who do not share them. I'm not suggesting that we force women to have abortions, just that abortions be available if they need them.

You, on the other hand, are trying to make decisions for adults you have never even met. You don't want them to have a choice, you don't want them to make a decision. You want to impose your religious beliefs on them. That they may not share those beliefs is immaterial to you.

Since most people will not buy into your self-appointed right to impose your religious beliefs onto them you resort to trying to shift the argument. Sorry, I'm not buying that either.

 

[tibear]

RB,

I noticed how you didn't answer the question I posed earlier: "Would you also stand by as a mother uses corporal punishment on their child?? Or would you force your moral beliefs that children shouldn't be hit onto her?? "

 

[Twila]

its because of people's attitudes towards unwed mothers.

Being an unwed, single parent, I just have to ask. what attitude?

 

[tibear]

Twila,

I can only speak with regards to my wife's situation. She is 17 years older than her sister(who looks very much like my wife).

Whenever my wife would take her sister out she would have people looking at her with judgemental looks and some were even brave enough to tell her that she was much to young to have children. One woman even told her that she got what she deserved by having sex outside marriage. This from complete strangers and to someone who wasn't even a unwed mother!!!

People are far too judgemental and not compassionate enough. As I've stated earlier, people make mistakes, but killing a child doesn't solve any problem it only further complicates the situation. We need to be supportive of these young woman and help them through their pregnancies and give them all options, including adoption. We need to change people attitudes towards adoption from one of abandonment to one of love.

Our society is so too apathetic towards the lives of those around us.

 

[Reverend Blair]

Tibear, like I said before:

Since most people will not buy into your self-appointed right to impose your religious beliefs onto them you resort to trying to shift the argument. Sorry, I'm not buying that either.

 

[peapod]

and that is exactly what they are...religious beliefs. Your beliefs, not everyone elses...and if anyone spoke to your wife's sister like that :roll: than they were no doubt christians. And we all know christians did it in the back seat of a car to...they just never got caught

 

[tibear]

RB,

Many scientists and doctors who believe that the fetus is human do NOT base their beliefs on religion but rather on scientific proof.(heart beat and brain activity)

If you think about it the religious aspect plays no part of the debate. The soul is not lost because the physical body is destroyed, so from a religious standpoint no harm is done.

The only religious arguement you can even remotely associate with abortion is the "Thou shall not kill" aspect, which our society has universally accepted. (Unless you can think of a situation where it is OK to go and shoot someone???)

 

[peapod]

knock knock!!!! Its none of your business what someone decides to do with their own body. Just like its none of your business what choices they make in life. You are free to make your choices, allow others the same consideration. Stop trying to shove your religious beliefs on us. We don't believe what you believe. that simple, and you can riddle me this and riddle me that...we are free thinking people and we decide what our experiences will be not you or your book of rules.

 

[Twila]

Tb, I've had the exact opposite reaction from your wife.
My nephew was born when I was 16. I looked about 13. But no one made unsavory comments or gave unsavory looks. I was often asked how old my son was.

I was 20 when my daughter was born but looked about 16. One comment I'll always remeber was from this little old lady who told me that my daughter was not my possession, but a gift from god. Something I believe but wasn't expecting to hear from a little old lady.

I don't think that unwed mothers are frowned upon anymore then any other group of people. Which is to say that someone some where is always going to dislike someone elses choices. That's just the beauty of having free will..........