2SLGBTQQIA+

Ron in Regina

"Voice of the West" Party
Apr 9, 2008
22,463
7,483
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Regina, Saskatchewan
. . . would you use the power of the state to criminalize this "atrocity?"
How about limiting the decision to the individual once they’re an adult and can make that decision for themselves once they’re mentally mature enough to do so?
Another question (I understand it's rare). . . would you allow surgery/hormone therapy, with or without parental consent, to make the body of a genuinely gynandromorphic child (distinct, physical signs of both sexes) conform to one sex?
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For example, breast reduction surgery to minimize the breasts of a 15-year-old with full male genitalia, or surgical and hormonal treatment to remove one set of genitalia from a child who has both?
I don’t know how common this specific variation is, but it reads like it’s not very, and thus shouldn’t be the lynchpin for an entire debate on the topic. I know this following might seem like a “ball-less answer” (no pun intended) but ideally I’d like to see the child, once no longer a child, make that decision for themselves, as, what if the parents or doctors “guess” incorrectly? That coin should be the individual’s to flip once they’re mature enough to make that decision.

That in turn leads to “What is mature enough?” & the arbitrary ages imposed by society like:
1) how old is somebody before they can drive legally?
2) how old is somebody before they can purchase drugs or alcohol legally?
3) how old is somebody before they can vote legally?
4) how old is somebody before they can decide upon elective surgery for themselves legally?
5) how old is somebody before they can decide to join the military legally? Etc…
6) how old is somebody before they can sign a legal document?
-Why are the above ages attached to these decisions?
 
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Tecumsehsbones

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Mar 18, 2013
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I don’t know how common this specific variation is, but it reads like it’s not very, and thus shouldn’t be the lynchpin for an entire debate on the topic. I know this following might seem like a “ball-less answer” (no pun intended) but ideally I’d like to see the child, once no longer a child, make that decision for themselves, as, what if the parents or doctors “guess” incorrectly? That coin should be the individual’s to flip once they’re mature enough to make that decision.
Nope, you're good. And I wasn't suggesting that the policy be based on extreme cases, but rather that any policy you craft should take extreme cases into account. Arguing from extremes is stupid, like the imbeciles who immediately leap to the cases of abortion as birth control, or abortion for a 12-year-old raped by her abusive stepfather. Governments should regulate to the general or majority case, but with room for exceptions.
That in turn leads to “What is mature enough?” & the arbitrary ages imposed by society like:
1) how old is somebody before they can drive legally?
2) how old is somebody before they can purchase drugs or alcohol legally?
3) how old is somebody before they can vote legally?
4) how old is somebody before they can decide upon elective surgery for themselves legally?
5) how old is somebody before they can decide to join the military legally? Etc…
6) how old is somebody before they can sign a legal document?
-Why are the above ages attached to these decisions?
Once upon a time, the "age of majority" was determined by one's parents. As I'm sure you can imagine, that didn't work very well, though it did provide extreme deference to parental authority, which conservatives seem to hold as the Holy of Holies.

Not sure how Canada runs it, but in the U.S., there is no single "age of majority." Age for marriage without parental consent varies by state. Age for purchasing alcohol used to vary. The Federal government made it 21 by refusing highway funds to any state that didn't raise its drinking age to 21. You can enlist at 17 with parental permission, and at 18 without. You can vote at 18 (Constitutional amendment). Driving licenses, with varying restrictions, anywhere from 14 to 18, depending on the state. But most car rental companies insist that you be at least 25.
 

Ron in Regina

"Voice of the West" Party
Apr 9, 2008
22,463
7,483
113
Regina, Saskatchewan
Nope, you're good. And I wasn't suggesting that the policy be based on extreme cases, but rather that any policy you craft should take extreme cases into account. Arguing from extremes is stupid, like the imbeciles who immediately leap to the cases of abortion as birth control, or abortion for a 12-year-old raped by her abusive stepfather. Governments should regulate to the general or majority case, but with room for exceptions.

Once upon a time, the "age of majority" was determined by one's parents. As I'm sure you can imagine, that didn't work very well, though it did provide extreme deference to parental authority, which conservatives seem to hold as the Holy of Holies.

Not sure how Canada runs it, but in the U.S., there is no single "age of majority." Age for marriage without parental consent varies by state. Age for purchasing alcohol used to vary. The Federal government made it 21 by refusing highway funds to any state that didn't raise its drinking age to 21. You can enlist at 17 with parental permission, and at 18 without. You can vote at 18 (Constitutional amendment). Driving licenses, with varying restrictions, anywhere from 14 to 18, depending on the state. But most car rental companies insist that you be at least 25.
Canada is all over the place (or at least use to be) with respect to the age of majority also.
 

Serryah

Executive Branch Member
Dec 3, 2008
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New Brunswick
Poor word choice. Make it "hermaphrodite" for "gynandromorph."

I blame Trudeau. I'd blame the Greeks, but this is CanCon.



Language, that bastard, evolves to confuse everyone.
 

Tecumsehsbones

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Serryah

Executive Branch Member
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It's a great way to weasel out when you don't want to answer the fuckin' question.

True and so far no answers.

The irony is there are stories out there of those who fall under the intersex label, who had surgery as soon as they were able to because of doctors deciding what would be easier to do on them, only to have them turn out to be the opposite gender later.



This is why Intersex falls under the "Trans" umbrella more often than not. And where "Body parts do not make the Gender" proves out.

So your questions are valid, and affect more people than just those who are intersexed. IMO, Trans people are like intersexed in that their gender doesn't match the parts; just that Trans people didn't develop the secondary sex characteristics to label them as intersex. That doesn't make their "feeling" (even though feeling isn't really the right word) of being the wrong gender less valid.
 

Serryah

Executive Branch Member
Dec 3, 2008
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New Brunswick


So... everyone has rights except kids.

Kids are property, or not human, or something other than, so they don't get the rights they should have.

Really? Is that where you want to go with this?
 
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Serryah

Executive Branch Member
Dec 3, 2008
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New Brunswick
Not saying it’s right, but that it’s real and it’s happened. Newsworthy so link posted.

Oh I know it's real. Even here in NB Higgs the Pig tried it and got his hands smacked with the same "Kids have rights under the charter too".

But that is what is being said - that the rights of kids matter less than the parent. Instead of trying to work something out that might work for everyone, this idea of "screw the kids, they're stupid and don't know what they're talking about" is winning. To the detriment of those same kids.

Okay, aside from the belief that parents need to know every single thing a kid does... what is so bad/wrong/whatever about parents not knowing that a kid wants to change their name/pronoun without them knowing? What is so wrong with wanting the kid to make the decision about when and where a parent finds out that their kid is trans, or gender fluid, or ace or gender non-conforming or gay, or bi, or lesbian? Is the "harm" being done just that the parents aren't included and thus feel left out? Asking honestly here.
 

Ron in Regina

"Voice of the West" Party
Apr 9, 2008
22,463
7,483
113
Regina, Saskatchewan
Okay, aside from the belief that parents need to know every single thing a kid does... what is so bad/wrong/whatever about parents not knowing that a kid wants to change their name/pronoun without them knowing?
I have my point of view based upon my own personal experience with a school deciding what I did, or didn’t, need to know about my own child, & it had nothing to do with a pronoun debate.

If the school has actually been interested in the welfare of the children instead of its own legal standing, I might not have had to beat some dude with a motorcycle helmet and threaten him that I’d be back repeatedly if his child laid a hand on another child at the school ever again.

Sometimes violence is the only answer to violence, but I wish the school would’ve provided an option to me having to solve the issue outside of the system
What is so wrong with wanting the kid to make the decision about when and where a parent finds out that their kid is trans, or gender fluid, or ace or gender non-conforming or gay, or bi, or lesbian?
I’m on the outside of this one, & our kids are all in their 30’s with kids of their own.

I’m outside of being directly impacted by the “pronouns debate” but lived through the “school deciding what I did or didn’t need to know about the health & welfare of my own child” end of the debate, and thus my stance from being to end here.
Is the "harm" being done just that the parents aren't included and thus feel left out? Asking honestly here.
Well, parents being excluded by the school in knowledge of what’s happening with their children by policy I’d assume would be the answer.

You refer to children as being Chattel or possessions of parents, or something like that (I was up in the middle of the night, and I vaguely remember something like that I think).

Children are young mailable human beings, and the responsibility of the parents until the age of majority, but they’re still a parents children Forever. Even though our children are all in their ‘30’s…they’re still our kids.

Children are not the property or chattel of the school system either, and once they graduate…they don’t remain the schools students forever…as it’s a different relationship than the bond between children and their parents, both in regards to rights and responsibilities and obligations.
But that is what is being said - that the rights of kids matter less than the parent. Instead of trying to work something out that might work for everyone, this idea of "screw the kids, they're stupid and don't know what they're talking about" is winning. To the detriment of those same kids.
I keep getting calls from drivers on my day off here, so I’ll come back to this later.
 

Taxslave2

House Member
Aug 13, 2022
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So... everyone has rights except kids.

Kids are property, or not human, or something other than, so they don't get the rights they should have.

Really? Is that where you want to go with this?
No, it is saying that kids, like retards, do not have the mental capacity to make life altering decisions for themselves. This is also why we have laws that give government agencies the right to intervene to protect kids from their parents. Probably all have been wrongly applied at times.
 
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Serryah

Executive Branch Member
Dec 3, 2008
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New Brunswick
No, it is saying that kids, like retards, do not have the mental capacity to make life altering decisions for themselves. This is also why we have laws that give government agencies the right to intervene to protect kids from their parents. Probably all have been wrongly applied at times.

Funny thing is, kids AREN'T making life altering decisions for themselves.

On their own.

Unless you want to claim pronoun use and name changes are life altering in which case you've got some extreme ideas of what is life altering and what isn't. And since when is having name you pick in school life altering? Lots of kids have a nickname, or other name that their friends/peers may use at school. Hell, people have nick/other names as adults.