'Russia is fighting a war with us': Georgian president

[dancing-loon]

Here is a good explanatory comment from a reader:

....The people in South Osettia are Russians not Georgians, they carry Russian passports, they do not want anything to do with Georgia, they have never even historically belonged to Georgia, they voted to stay with Russia.

So, for example, if Quebec separated and the western half of Quebec said no we want to stay with Canada and then Quebec troops marched in with genocide orders. You would say Canada should not intervene, let the Quebec troops kill Canadians with Canadian passports?

Does that explain the situation? I tend to believe the article in Global Research. We never get told the truth about these things. Our media people always paint Russia as the bad guy!

 

[DurkaDurka]

Loon, Russia hasn't recognized South Osettia as a country nor has the UN. Russia only recently gave the Georgian citizens Russian passports, probably as an excuse to invade that part of the country.

 

[Praxius]

Putin has only solidified his hold on power in the last 2 or 3 years, putting down all democratic opposition in Russia proper. His appointees hold complete control of the Russian bureaucracy, media, armed forces, courts and economy. They owe all their perks of office, and now their lives, to unquestioned loyalty of Putin.

Sounds a lot like Bush, the only difference is that Bush won't get his hands directly dirty, and will pay of corporations and judges to do his dirty work for him for a little "Bonus" here and there, he get's to dictate where his military goes, he can and has limited the information and truth through the media, and when you want to look at people appointed.... how come McCain's plans line up to identically the same crap we've been seeing for the last 8 years?

No, Russia and Putin are the only evil guys.

Oil runs the world economy. He who controls the spigots of the world, controls the world.

And why should the US and the allies/regimes they help support and put into place get the monopoly over this? Russia having that in their control might bring some decent balance back into the world, as the US doesn't seem to have a problem crossing the line and beyond so long as they have the money and supplies backing them up... the clearly have no morals or principles when it comes to world affairs, and the only way to stop them is to cut their supply so as to at least slow them down a little.

Would it spell higher fuel costs for the rest of the world? It might.... then again, if that would be the case, then perhaps the US should stop starting wars and dragging their forces all over the planet, buring up most of the resources.

Wait. Up to now he has only been responsible for selective murders, mostly of journalists and former KGB colleagues who wanted to expose him for what he is.. a cold blooded killer. He was instrumental in bombing some apartments in Moscow in 1999, as Yeltsin's designated heir, in order to blame it on Chechens and muster support for that war.. about 200 killed.. small potatoes. It's a question of scale for Putin, not a question of conscience. He will kill who ever gets in his way. His thugs beat up political opponents, he jails anyone who challenges his hold on power.

See what happens when you try and bring a totally different way of life to people who have no clue how to use it? USSR / Russia...... Iraq..... Afghanistan..... they'll all gradually go back to the ways they're acustomed to and are used to.

Not to mention, it's their country, their lives.... if that's how they want to do things, so be it..... but they're not going across the world trying to take over other nations. And since this has been their first major military offensive since the fall of the USSR, I'm not as concerned about Russia as I am for the US and Georgia.

Once again, you forget that Georgia started this situation.... Russia was just finishing it.

Bush retired when his terms of office were over, as required by the Constitution of the U.S.. Putin did not, treating his own country's constitution with utter contempt.. setting up a personal puppet in the President's office. Just like Hitler, who solidified his regime by setting up Hindenburg as figure head.. before burning the Reichstag. We are only at the start of Putin's 'great game'.

1st, Bush hasn't retired yet... his father did perhaps, but even that's questionable.... and if Bush does retire and leave office, that remains to be seen.

2nd, Putin did leave his office as president and now applied to be Prime Minister, which he won..... he followed their own rules, as there is no rule/law stating a President couldn't be a Prime Minister in Russia.

3rd, Hitler didn't burn the Reichstag, but he did use the burning of the Reichstag to solidify his position and to invoke the fear in the German population that they were under a "Real Terrorist Threat" ~ Sound familiar?

I could say the same of you, Praxis. Putin leaves no trail, he works in the shadows.. he is ruthless.

If he leaves no trail, and you have no evidence, then all you're spouting are unfound and unprovable claims, except what you read and hear in Western Media and political officials.

 

[DurkaDurka]

I think this article sums it up pretty good,

The Russian Empire Strikes Back



Russia's invasion of Georgia has less to do with South Ossetia than with a Russia that never reconciled itself to losing an empire — or to being treated like a second-rate power all these years. Russia's resentment has only grown as oil prices have risen, turning Russia, with the 5 million bbl. of oil it exports a day, into a first-world economic power. It was only a matter of time, then, before Russia taught the world a lesson. Continued

 

[Praxius]

The problem I have here is the double standard.

Georgia has every right to wage a civil war, and Russia has no right to give passports to Georgian citizens in an area its supposed to be peacekeepers for.

Its a bit of a conflict of interest for Russia to be peacekeepers of a region that wants to join Russia, and whom Russia then gave passports too.

I always staggers me how people can blame the USA and every move it does on the world stage as some imperialist oil grab,

But when Russia (or china or anyone else) makes a very blunt imperialist land grabs to funnel oil better... no one goes against them.

I guess its just not chic to blame anyone but America and Israel, hell even France gets a free ride for its Imperialistic wars, It even backs genocide and gets off scott free.

And what I find funny is the double standard and thin line people like to move around to suit their objectives.

Let's think about this for a second:

• The USSR breaks up.
• Georgia doesn't want anything to do with Russia and wants to be their own country.
• Two provinces of Georgia have more ties and relations to Russia then they do with the rest of Georgia.... they don't even speak the same language as the rest of Georgia.
• The two provinces fought Georgia and gained their independence from Georgia, which the rest of the world doesn't reconize.

Since Russia and Georgia are both from the former USSR, and Georgia won their independance from Russia, why does the justification of independence stop when two proviences of Georgia don't want to be a part of Georgia and want to go back to Russia and build ties?

Because it doesn't suit Western interests, that's why.... and that's why there is an obvious double standard going on here. If Russia wanted to be its own nation, and Georgia wanted to be their own nation, and these two proviences want to be their own nations or be a part of Russia over Georgia..... then why can't they?

Where do you see any justification for Georgia to use military force to take what they think is theirs, while you find no justification for Russia to do the same? And as a reminder, Russia isn't doing the same thing as Georgia, as they only entered after Georgia started attacking.

 

[Praxius]

This should be an education to you, Risus, and all the other folks out there that foam at the mouth at the mention of the USA.

This is how real imperialist powers treat their neighbours.

Meanwhile, we stick our thumbs in the American eye with impunity.....

See the difference?

Oh yeah, Russia the bad guys, and this is how they treat their neighbors.... neighbors which started the military conflict to begin with, and somehow they're in the wrong for trying to help defend those proviences from being oppressed and taken over by a US backed government in Georgia.

It's almost sickening how easily some people can be sucked into propaganda and not able to look directly at the facts.

Who started the conflict? Georgia.

Who killed Peacekeepers.... Russian Peacekeepers at that? Georgia.

Who started the artillery and armour attacks on the Provience, killing civilians? Georgia.

Who was cutting off food and medical supplies to those proviences? Georgia.

What was the majority of the civilian victims who were targeted and killed? Civilians with Russian passports and ties.

Who air lifted 2000 more Georgian troops to continue the fighting in that area? The United States.

Stick my thumb in the American Eye? Screw that, I'll jam a damn fork in their head.

 

[jimmoyer]

The only problem with your logical rationalization is your assumption the South Ossetians want to join Russia. Or for that matter, another breakaway country is Abkhazia. The Russians like that resort area which is also close to the Russian resort area that will host the 2014 Olympics.

Those independent seccessions from Georgia do not want to join Russia. They'll take advantage on the free passports and other perks and the Russian military to fight off the Georgian army.

But do they want the Russian dominance? No.

Russia is happy to "use" this problem for their own agenda.

Or are you going to say the Russian agenda is completely altruistic ?

 

[Praxius]

Russia has been warned by the US and has now stopped it's invasion, Nice try Putin.

Oh yeah.... first people bitch and moan that people are linking US influence, and then all of a sudden as soon as Russia stopped, it's all thanks to our wonderful US. :roll:

Seriously, wtf would the US do? Send some more hired mercs, due to lack of troops? Start throwing sanctions all over the place thinking they were productive?

Russia stopped once they had the areas of concern and additional areas which would help prevent Georgia from pulling this stunt again in the future.

And as Russia stated.... Georgia was punished enough..... good to see that some countries in the world still know restraint.

 

[Praxius]

I almost always hear that from Russians, how shallow and materialistic Western culture is. But at least we don't have weave around drunks, staggering in the middle of the road in rush hour, as they do in downtown Moscow. :roll:

You do realize what country you currently live in? That stereo-type is about as accurate as Canadians riding moose to work.... smooth move.

Georgia is not the 'end game' for Putin. Its an example for all the old Soviet republics and beyond that allying yourself with the West will be punished. Ultimately he wants all those Slavic republics and the 'stans on its southern flank under the control and sphere of Moscow. So i expect he will withdraw from Georgia after his point is made. But this is far from the end of his agenda.

Oh of course, and the Illuminati are no where from finished either.

 

[Praxius]

Bush told Putin to stop and he did- Russia will do as it is told.

And I could shout at the sky to never rain piss.... that doesn't mean I can take credit for no piss raining down on us on a daily basis.

Sometimes the obvious will occur regardless.

 

[Praxius]

You honestly believe busk's warning made putin stop??? Give me a break!

Indeed.. if anybody ever gave a rats ass what Bush thought or said, Iran would have given up it's nuclear program long ago, and the entire world would be fighting in Iraq as we speak.

 

[Colpy]

Oh yeah.... first people bitch and moan that people are linking US influence, and then all of a sudden as soon as Russia stopped, it's all thanks to our wonderful US. :roll:

Seriously, wtf would the US do? Send some more hired mercs, due to lack of troops? Start throwing sanctions all over the place thinking they were productive?

Russia stopped once they had the areas of concern and additional areas which would help prevent Georgia from pulling this stunt again in the future.

And as Russia stated.... Georgia was punished enough..... good to see that some countries in the world still know restraint.

Oh come on!

Now you are defending the Russians????

Good Lord!

This entire debacle was engineered by the Russians.........quite nicely too. You do know where Putin came from, don't you? he was head of the KGB. Tells you where his head is at.........

Simple.....Georgia has lost the successionist states.......the remainder of Georgia should be admitted to the NATO alliance the second there is a ceasefire. Putin has to be faced down.....

One thing for sure.....running from the bear is an invitation to disaster.

 

[Zzarchov]

And what I find funny is the double standard and thin line people like to move around to suit their objectives.

Let's think about this for a second:

• The USSR breaks up.
• Georgia doesn't want anything to do with Russia and wants to be their own country.
• Two provinces of Georgia have more ties and relations to Russia then they do with the rest of Georgia.... they don't even speak the same language as the rest of Georgia.
• The two provinces fought Georgia and gained their independence from Georgia, which the rest of the world doesn't reconize.

Since Russia and Georgia are both from the former USSR, and Georgia won their independance from Russia, why does the justification of independence stop when two proviences of Georgia don't want to be a part of Georgia and want to go back to Russia and build ties?

Because it doesn't suit Western interests, that's why.... and that's why there is an obvious double standard going on here. If Russia wanted to be its own nation, and Georgia wanted to be their own nation, and these two proviences want to be their own nations or be a part of Russia over Georgia..... then why can't they?

Where do you see any justification for Georgia to use military force to take what they think is theirs, while you find no justification for Russia to do the same? And as a reminder, Russia isn't doing the same thing as Georgia, as they only entered after Georgia started attacking.

The USSR was a Union of republics, and when the republics broke up, they went back to their old boundries.

Russia kept areas with minority ethnic russians (through brutal repression), and Georgia kept areas with minority ethnic georgians.

I don't see Russia giving up regions that fought for independance against Russia.

Its a land grab, there is no "benevolent motive" in Russia, sometimes bad people do bad things. Its a fact of life.

 

[lone wolf]

One thing for sure.....running from the bear is an invitation to disaster.

Unfortunately, trying to look bigger than it didn't fare out so well either - unless you owned an armament factory....

 

[Colpy]

Unfortunately, trying to look bigger than it didn't fare out so well either - unless you owned an armament factory....

You should try telling that to the East Germans, the Poles, the Czechs, the Lithuanians, the Romanians, the Latvians, the Estonians............get the idea?

 

[lone wolf]

You should try telling that to the East Germans, the Poles, the Czechs, the Lithuanians, the Romanians, the Latvians, the Estonians............get the idea?

Okay ... we'll look at it from the angle you switched to.... What happened in 1968 Czecholslovakia, or in Prague - or anywhere they tried to stare down the bear. I don't have to tell them anything. They already know....

My point was Uncle Sam spent years and fortunes trying to look bigger. Now, they're all dressed up with no place to go - except Grenada, or Panama, or Iraq, then Iraq II .... get the idea?

 

[Praxius]

The only problem with your logical rationalization is your assumption the South Ossetians want to join Russia. Or for that matter, another breakaway country is Abkhazia. The Russians like that resort area which is also close to the Russian resort area that will host the 2014 Olympics.

Those independent seccessions from Georgia do not want to join Russia. They'll take advantage on the free passports and other perks and the Russian military to fight off the Georgian army.

But do they want the Russian dominance? No.

Russia is happy to "use" this problem for their own agenda.

Or are you going to say the Russian agenda is completely altruistic ?

Nope.... but once again, this situation wouldn't have occured in the first place if Georgia left the area as it was for the last 18 or so years. They started it, Russia finished it. I don't see a big deal.

 

[Colpy]

Okay ... we'll look at it from the angle you switched to.... What happened in 1968 Czecholslovakia, or in Prague - or anywhere they tried to stare down the bear. I don't have to tell them anything. They already know....

Czechslovakia, Hungary..........neither had the power to resist, but did anyway, and paid the price. Both were freed when the west (the United States especially) stood up to the bear. Putin is not insane, he will push only as long as there is give, and something to be gained. Not facing him down only whets his appetite.

Poor Czechslovakia was the pawn in that other confrontation where we failed to go nose to nose with the dictator........Munich, 1938. We saw how well appeasement turned out that time.

 

[Praxius]

Oh come on!

Now you are defending the Russians????

Good Lord!

From contradicting and skewed media reports which avoid placing blame on Georgia and completely on Russia for Georgia's actions.... Yes, I do.

This entire debacle was engineered by the Russians.........quite nicely too. You do know where Putin came from, don't you? he was head of the KGB. Tells you where his head is at.........

As explained by Loon, apparently this whole debacle was engineered by Georgia.... with a good hint towards US influence in causing this crap to occur in the first place.

Putin was in the KGB, everybody knows this.... many of the people operating in the Russian government used to be in the KGB.... what? are they not allowed to have jobs and work for their country because they were in an intelligence organization that opposed other intelligence agencies such as the CIA? It's their country, they don't need to throw in US arse suckers just to suit the US.... and if they want to gradually throw themselves back into a Communist state, who cares? It's their country.

Simple.....Georgia has lost the successionist states.......the remainder of Georgia should be admitted to the NATO alliance the second there is a ceasefire. Putin has to be faced down.....

Georgia's application to NATO was already rejected for obvious reasons..... and due to their own actions from last week, they shouldn't have any right to join NATO for quite some time now, they replace their current leader and reform their agressive ways.

One thing for sure.....running from the bear is an invitation to disaster.

And ignoring the facts is also an invitation to disaster.

 

[Praxius]

The USSR was a Union of republics, and when the republics broke up, they went back to their old boundries.

Russia kept areas with minority ethnic russians (through brutal repression), and Georgia kept areas with minority ethnic georgians.

I don't see Russia giving up regions that fought for independance against Russia.

Its a land grab, there is no "benevolent motive" in Russia, sometimes bad people do bad things. Its a fact of life.

Indeed.... so why should other nations that are not involved, suddenly get involved just to make the whole situation a bigger mess then before? As I stated before, let the two of them blow each other up and sort it out.