Carter hugs Hamas member as Israel fumes

[Zzarchov]

Hasn't worked? How can you tell?

I know its against the grain of our "24 hours news" mentality, but most things of this nature take years, even decades to work and you can't tell in quick order.

That doesn't mean it will work mind you, it may also end up "Working" in some unexpected way.

But you can't tell one way or the other after this short a time. Thats like saying "Well water obviously wont put out this house fire, we've had the hoses on it for a good thirty seconds, lets pack it up and go back to the firestation"

 

[Praxius]

Hasn't worked? How can you tell?

I know its against the grain of our "24 hours news" mentality, but most things of this nature take years, even decades to work and you can't tell in quick order.

That doesn't mean it will work mind you, it may also end up "Working" in some unexpected way.

But you can't tell one way or the other after this short a time. Thats like saying "Well water obviously wont put out this house fire, we've had the hoses on it for a good thirty seconds, lets pack it up and go back to the firestation"

Um... when I posted that comment, it was in reference to this:

"Israel has said the blockade is part of a crackdown spurred by increased Palestinian rocket attacks in southern Israel."

Which isn't working. The blockade has been going on for how long? Rockets are still being fired.

I wasn't talking about Carter, but the last line in the update.

 

[dancing-loon]

Carter meets Hamas chief in Syria


Former US President Jimmy Carter is holding talks with exiled Hamas leader Khaled Meshaal in Syria.
Ways of including Hamas in peace talks and the fate of an Israeli prisoner are expected to be on the agenda.
Mr Carter has also met the Syrian and Israeli presidents during his Middle East tour to discuss the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
Other senior Israelis have snubbed Mr Carter, but one minister has said he is willing to break policy and meet Hamas.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7354027.stm
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I very much hope and wish Carter could perform a miracle and broker another peace deal, this time one that would last.

 

[Praxius]

If you don't talk to the emeny, then you will not resolve anything until one or the either is destroyed.... or both. Maybe that's what some want.

But if you don't negotiate with terrorists, and clearly anything in the world these days can be labeled a terrorist, then that certainly closes the doors on plenty of opportunities and sets people to only one path to take, which is force and warfare, blinded by other possibilities.

 

[Zzarchov]

Um... when I posted that comment, it was in reference to this:

"Israel has said the blockade is part of a crackdown spurred by increased Palestinian rocket attacks in southern Israel."

Which isn't working. The blockade has been going on for how long? Rockets are still being fired.

I wasn't talking about Carter, but the last line in the update.

And that is exactly what I was commenting on, a 24 hour news mentality, expecting everything to be fixed lickety split.

The Blockade hasn't even been on for a year, it isn't exactly hard to stockpile a years worth of sporadic rocketfire.

Things take time to know if they are working or failing. Especially blockades.

The blockade could be failing miserabley or a stunning success, you aren't going to know in a few months.

 

[Praxius]

And that is exactly what I was commenting on, a 24 hour news mentality, expecting everything to be fixed lickety split.

The Blockade hasn't even been on for a year, it isn't exactly hard to stockpile a years worth of sporadic rocketfire.

Things take time to know if they are working or failing. Especially blockades.

The blockade could be failing miserabley or a stunning success, you aren't going to know in a few months.

Ok, regardless of the statistical explaination you made on eventually making them run out of rockets or the equipment/supplies for rockets..... exactly how is this blockade still supposed to work? It's not going to teach them not to shoot rockets at them, cuz they still are doing it.

Then when they run out of rockets and the blockade is lifted, they're still going to be pissed off, no resolutions have been made, they'll get more rockets and it'll just continue and they'll blockade again, thus still being a failure.

It has nothing to do with a 24 hour news mentality, it's just common sense applied to any action. What is the end result of this blockade supposed to be? Will it Work? Why or why not? This blockade was about as well thought out as a US invasion..... no end results presented.... it's just plain punishment on the entire area. Punishment works well for toddlers and kids, but punishment on a society or country just spawns one big festering and angry nation of people like what occured to Germany after WWI and Allies "Punished" them.

They'll be not only angry, pissed and wanting revenge, but they'll also be desperate and hungry for change by any means nessicary. Blockading and making the entire populace of people suffer sure isn't going to solve anything, and I don't need 1 hour or 24 hours to come to that conclusion. History is filled with prime examples.

 

[Zzarchov]

Who says the blockade will end before some form of agreement is made.

Case in point:

Hamas has now roundly rejected ever acknowledging they would recognize Israel as a neighbour in peace.

The exhiled leader clarified that when speaking with former president Carter, he offered to give Israel a 10-year truce before returning to war, in exchange for Israel to return to its pre-1967 borders, turn over Palestine to Hamas for the creation of an Islamic state, that will include Israel after the 10 years.


So ya... nice offer of peace "Give us everything we want, and we'll let you live for 10 years before killing you"

 

[Praxius]

Who says the blockade will end before some form of agreement is made.

Case in point:

Hamas has now roundly rejected ever acknowledging they would recognize Israel as a neighbour in peace.

The exhiled leader clarified that when speaking with former president Carter, he offered to give Israel a 10-year truce before returning to war, in exchange for Israel to return to its pre-1967 borders, turn over Palestine to Hamas for the creation of an Islamic state, that will include Israel after the 10 years.

So ya... nice offer of peace "Give us everything we want, and we'll let you live for 10 years before killing you"

Wow, what an astute observation on your part.... and including words which were never said?

It's a start/openening to negotiations.... they have to start somewhere. Check a divorce sometime where the lawyer always tells you to aim high and work your way from there. There's no point in selling yourself short right off the start when you could be entitled to even more.

Offer #1 - If not approved, then send back a counter offer and so on and so forth.

 

[Zzarchov]

So which part isn't true:

That hamas said it would not recognize israel?
The part where it said it would only end fighting for a 10 year truce?
The part where in return for this truce it demanded Gaza, the West Bank and Jerusalem be a sovereign state?
The part where it has declared it is the only legitimate government of the "occupied territories" in the recent past?
The part of its charter where it demands an Islamic state?
The part of its charter dictating that Islamic state includes Israel?

If any of that is untrue let me know.


Offer #1 was along time ago, the most generous counter offer was rejected by Arafat. This isn't "aim high and barter" its an ultimatum from the losing side.

 

[dancing-loon]

Carter Says Hamas and Syria Are Open to Peace

JERUSALEM — Jimmy Carter, the former American president, said on Monday that he had obtained a significant concession from the Palestinian group Hamas regarding Israeli-Palestinian peace and also found the Syrian leadership eager for a full peace treaty with Israel.
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Israeli officials opposed Mr. Carter’s meetings with Hamas leaders, saying doing so legitimizes a group they consider to be a terrorist organization. But Mr. Carter said on Monday, “The problem is not that I met with Hamas in Syria. The problem is that Israel and the United States refuse to meet these people.”

Mr. Carter also said that while he was snubbed by the Israeli leadership over his talks with Hamas, he believes it was due to American pressure that meetings between him and top Israeli leaders were canceled.

Read all here: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/22/wo...hp&oref=slogin
----------------------------------------------------
We know Israel's plan! They don't want a peace agreement.....they want all of Palestine! Period.
It is good that Carter is there and talking to the "terrorists". It shows the world who the real peace blockers are!! It is the Zionists and their freedom and democracy loving friend!!

 

[Zzarchov]

Hamas rejects Israeli recognition

Khaled Meshaal said Hamas was prepared to offer a 10-year truce


Palestinian militant group Hamas will not recognise Israel, its political leader Khaled Meshaal has insisted. He was responding to comments by former US President Jimmy Carter, following their talks in Syria at the weekend.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7359661.stm

 

[lone wolf]

Yeah ... anyone who attempts to be neutral and civil with enemies of Israel is an idiot. Will the real idiot please bounce your head off a wall?

Woof!

 

[Zzarchov]

Neutral and Civil is fine, but you have to be honest.

If the group is a terrorist organization intent on constant warfare (which it is) just be honest about it "Ya..they are war obsessed, nothing we can do here".

Lying about it and giving false impressions just prolongs suffering.

 

[Praxius]

"Lying about it and giving false impressions just prolongs suffering."

No kidding, just look around the world today due to actions of the more powerful nations doing the above. There's plenty of lies going around to/from all sides of this problem. Getting to the bottom of it, is once again, something done easily through talking.

They can blow themselves up to oblivion and kill all their women and children on both sides, I honestly don't give a rats ass about either side anymore.... or if I ever did. They know what needs to be done to stop all this, the problem is both are still filled with their own super egos and neither want to make it look like they're weaker or willing to listen or bend to negotiations. It's either all of what they want, or it's more fighting..... it's as simple as that.

Either they talk it out and figure out what everybody wants and what works, or continue blowing the hell out of each other, it's no skin off my back. They're making the actions and they are responsible for their own actions. They can live with them for all I care, until they learn to both grow the hell up.

If talking stops it, so much the better, regardless of who thinks who's out to destroy who.

Regardless who you think are the terrorists and who are the defenders or whatever, both are playing the game and both are equally guilty, and both are equally stubbron.

 

[Colpy]

Yeah ... anyone who attempts to be neutral and civil with enemies of Israel is an idiot. Will the real idiot please bounce your head off a wall?

Woof!

Hamas offered Carter (according to Khaled Mashaal, Hamas politburo chief) a ten-year truce......with NO recognition of Israel IF

-Israel retreated to 1967 borders

-A new Palestinian State is created.

-Jerusalem is the capital

-there is a "right of return"

In other words, Hamas has promised Israel a ten year truce if Israel agrees to cease to exist at the end of those 10 years.

Right.

After which Carter emerges, practically claimed the road is clear to "Peace in our time".

"Peace in our time" The great pre-war joke.

Carter IS an idiot.

 

[MikeyDB]

Anyone who believes for a moment that anything but an entirely Jewish "solution" to the mess of the Middle East can be realized.... is the idiot and moron.

 

[EagleSmack]

Carter is hardly a moron. The guy is a nuclear physicist, he has written sixteen books and is respected all over the world, unlike Bush or any other recent president.

Yeah the Iranians really respected him. How many of our embassies were sacked during his tenure? The guy was the weakest President ever and deserved to be a 1 term loser.

 

[MikeyDB]

How many of your embassies were sacked?

Not enough.

 

[EagleSmack]

Carter is hardly a moron. The guy is a nuclear physicist, he has written sixteen books and is respected all over the world, unlike Bush or any other recent president.

Carter is NO nuclear physicist. He got a Bachelors In Science from the Naval Academy. During his Naval career he did some post grad work for a few months in 1953 studying nuclear physics and reactor technology. That hardly qualifies him as a Nuclear Physicist.

He is also a devout Christian which seems to only be a problem if you are a Republican.

 

[EagleSmack]

How many of your embassies were sacked?

Not enough.

Well eventually they were repaid in STEEL AND DEATH!

BWAHHHH HA HA HA HA!