U.S. soldiers seeking refugee status in Canada

[Praxius]

FIVE MILLION Afghan refugees have returned to that country.........voting with their feet......hoping for a better life with our help.

And all you bloody lefty new age kissy-kissy hug-hug peace loving sweethearts want to do is leave them all to the tender mercies of the lunatic Taliban.

way to go, guys.

GEEZUS!

I don't exactly feel that way.... Afghanistan is not the same situation as Iraq. So long as we stop blowing the hell out of their people without regard. Keep disregarding the safety and interests of the people in Afghanistan and then you'll end up with two Iraqs to deal with (Although signs are already showing)

Iraq is a straight forward and clear situation which pretty well only has one answer to it. Afghanistan is slightly different. However if our country decides to pull out of Afghanistan or they decide to stay, makes no real difference to me at this point.... but it makes a difference to those soldiers, their families and the people of Afghanistan.

 

[Praxius]

Were I 24 instead of 54, I might take you up on that...................some were forced back, but they are certainly NOT a majority. And abandoning the Afghan people to the Taliban is not only a disaster for them.....but eventually for us as well.

And that is sorta the only reason why I lean towards staying in Afghanistan. It's not the Afghans attacking our troops.... they are not blowing up cars, it's the Taliban organization hiding in the mountains, Pakistan and in remote villages. In Iraq, you have so many friggin factions and militias whom are all taking pot shots at the US in their country and regardless if the US wants to claim Iran's behind them, the majority of the attacks are from home grown Iraqis who've lost their friends and families at the US's disregard. Winter Soldier seems to explain this very well, as well as many reports I have seen from interviewed insurgents by western media (Most you won't see on your daily TV)

 

[MikeyDB]

I have yet to see Colpy exercising as much passion regarding the illegality of the war in Iraq and the consequences of American support/manipulation in Pakistan. It is well documented that the Taliban and many insurgent groups make their way from Pakistan into Afghanistan and into Iraq. Perhaps if a similar energy was invested in holding those actually responsible for a great deal of what's wrong with both conflicts, there'd be a meeting ground available for polite discourse... but maybe it's sufficient from Colpy's perspective to hurl insults and avoid the truth.

 

[Avro]

Which is?

Reply to the first part and I will tell you arm chair warrior.

 

[karrie]

Under the USA created Nuremburg Doctrine, any soldier may for reasons of conscience refuse to fight a war if he feels it is in violation of international law. Since the Bush regime will not allow him to exercise his conscience, it is in the wrong in this case.

Now that's in direct conflict with what Eagle said. Hmmm.

 

[Praxius]

Now that's in direct conflict with what Eagle said. Hmmm.

Hmmmmm.....

*Strokes Goatee and Other Things*

*Ponders some more...*

HHMMMMMMMM.......... mmmmmm... that feels sorta good.

So if the above is true, then I guess I can retract my Communist comment earlier. I mean frig, Volenteer Firefighters arn't stuck being firemen all their lives.... that's what Volenteer is all about... do what you want by your choice, pull out when you had enough.

Maybe that's not how it is, but that's how it should be imo. Join up in the military and serve until you had enough. Why force people to continue on when they no longer have their heart in it? That's dangerous to them and the people who depend on them. At least the Military had that extra pair of hands for that period of time in which they normally wouldn't have..... (Ungreatful bunch... always trying to get everything they can and then some.)

 

[EagleSmack]

Okay, so here's the other issue that has come up in the discussion.... they should just take what's coming to them, be men about it. But some of these men have families. So, to just 'man up' and destroy any future potential for a career, is that really a wiser option? Does that really make them stronger and more honorable?

At this point they really don't have a choice. One way or the other, if they return to the US or if Canada sends them home they will have to face the music. Desertion is a serious offense. Going UA or AWOL for a week and coming back is serious but survivable with just a bust and money taken from you. But when you are gone for more than 30 days that is Desertion and that means a Court Martial.

They can wait it out in Canada and hope for your government to let them stay. If they do they can wait for a president to pardon them as Jimmy Carter did for the citizens who dodged the draft. At this point I think it is unlikely because these were men and women actively serving in the US Military and have deserted. I will repeat myself but one of them never even served in Iraq and did less than a year. It is a choice they made to join up and a choice they made to leave. Getting on camera and standing in front of cheering supportive Canadians may feel good at the time but when they are returned they will be facing their own peers that they left behind...and the cheers will stop.

 

[karrie]

Hmmmmm.....

*Strokes Goatee and Other Things*

*Ponders some more...*

HHMMMMMMMM.......... mmmmmm... that feels sorta good.

So if the above is true, then I guess I can retract my Communist comment earlier. I mean frig, Volenteer Firefighters arn't stuck being firemen all their lives.... that's what Volenteer is all about... do what you want by your choice, pull out when you had enough.

Maybe that's not how it is, but that's how it should be imo. Join up in the military and serve until you had enough. Why force people to continue on when they no longer have their heart in it? That's dangerous to them and the people who depend on them. At least the Military had that extra pair of hands for that period of time in which they normally wouldn't have..... (Ungreatful bunch... always trying to get everything they can and then some.)

Hmmm. I have seen cases where even volunteer firemen were asked to make a time commitment. The reason? Training is damn expensive. And I doubt it's cheaper in the army.

 

[EagleSmack]

I agree with this.

Addition to the fact, his term is up. IF you need more bodies, time for the draft. Lets see how popular that is.

Zzarchov...I don't know if you read my posts but his term was not up. Say what you want about Iraq as it is your opinion, choice, etc.

But he was still in the Inactive Ready Reserve. Call the IRR stupid...ridiculous...whatever but he was still obligated to serve if called upon according to his contract that he signed as an adult.

 

[EagleSmack]

I know what he was saying Eagle, except that the addition of the 'fine, you take them, we don't want them anyway.' is a form of insulting the country they fled to, and it's an emotional lash out over their decision. In times of war, lashing out emotionally is highly counterproductive, and ends in people running off to other countries to hide.

No it is really just saying they are not TOO welcome here. That could be said if Mexico took them. Sort of like how I felt when Johnny Damon left the Red Sox for the Yankees, or Pedro Martinez left for the Mets.

"Fine...take him...who cares."

That hero to zero mentality. Impulsive and lashing out...absolutly.

 

[EagleSmack]

Reply to the first part and I will tell you arm chair warrior.

I don't usually respond to ignorant trolls who just like to bait you unwashed greasy hippie wannabe.

 

[EagleSmack]

Hmmmmm.....

*Strokes Goatee and Other Things*

*Ponders some more...*

HHMMMMMMMM.......... mmmmmm... that feels sorta good.

So if the above is true, then I guess I can retract my Communist comment earlier. I mean frig, Volenteer Firefighters arn't stuck being firemen all their lives.... that's what Volenteer is all about... do what you want by your choice, pull out when you had enough.

Maybe that's not how it is, but that's how it should be imo. Join up in the military and serve until you had enough. Why force people to continue on when they no longer have their heart in it? That's dangerous to them and the people who depend on them. At least the Military had that extra pair of hands for that period of time in which they normally wouldn't have..... (Ungreatful bunch... always trying to get everything they can and then some.)

Being a volunteer FF is so much different.

You can't treat the military as if you were volunteering for the YMCA. The military is a hard life and requires a lot of time and training and putting up with the BS that military life offers. You need to have a military and need to have people who sign up stick to the obligation that they made. A lot of times it isn't fun serving. There are deployments, wars, conflicts, just regular old BS. Cleaning barracks, inspections, cleaning, dealing with overzealous officers and NCO's. In a perfect world perhaps that would be fine but it is not very realistic. Canada doesn't have a military that you can walk away when you get tired of it do they?

 

[karrie]

alright.. that's a shot for a shot. If you guys want to escalate it, I'll remind you we have 'The Cage' (said in ominous horror movie advert voice... you can hear it, right?).

 

[EagleSmack]

Now that's in direct conflict with what Eagle said. Hmmm.

The Nuremberg Principles stated it is not a defense to justify war crimes by following orders.


Thus, under the Nuremberg Principles, "defense of superior orders" is not a defense for war crimes, although it might influence a sentencing authority to lessen the penalty.

That is what they mean. No matter how many forum posts say that it is an illegal war and that fighting in Iraq is a war crime does not make it true. Therefore the Nuremberg Principle is not a legal justification for a deserter.

 

[MHz]

So what is the legal basis?

Is prisoner mistreatment a war-crime and how far up the ladder can responsibility go?

 

[EagleSmack]

So what is the legal basis?

Is prisoner mistreatment a war-crime and how far up the ladder can responsibility go?

Obviously so as the guards at Abu Garahb (sic I know) were court martialed and jailed.

So the incidents at Abu Garab justify McDowell's flight to Canada? Try to get that to stick.

 

[talloola]

My post regarding the fellow who is in Canada, is only about him.

I don't support people who enlist and then refuse to report and leave the country.
That is a different situation all together, or those who leave the field and do not report
back for duty, so to those who lump all of those soldiers
into one catagorie, then accuse all of us of supporting going AWOL are wrong. Please
stick to the point, the fellow said he had been 'discharged' after one year of duty, so
to me, if that is true, then he has all the right in the world to refuse, and fight back.
If he is not telling us the truth, then I will have to change my opinion of him.

When a person enlists into the military, does he/she have a choice of different lengths
of time he/she wants to serve? Are all of the enlistments 8 yr periods?

 

[darkbeaver]

What the war on terrorism needs is dedicated people who will stick to the task untill it is complete not soft whimpy poofties who want to go home after a couple of tours. How can terrorism be defeated with part timers?

 

[Zzarchov]

Zzarchov...I don't know if you read my posts but his term was not up. Say what you want about Iraq as it is your opinion, choice, etc.

But he was still in the Inactive Ready Reserve. Call the IRR stupid...ridiculous...whatever but he was still obligated to serve if called upon according to his contract that he signed as an adult.

The contract he signed as an adult has some pretty specific things to say about how long he can be called up for, and what for:

Presidential Reserve Callup Authority" (PRCA) is a Provision of a public law (US Code, Title 10 (DOD), section 12304) that provides the President a means to activate, without a declaration of national emergency, not more than 200,000 members of the Selected Reserve and the Individual Ready Reserve (of whom not more than 30,000 may be members of the Individual Ready Reserve), for not more than 400 days to meet the support requirements of any operational mission. Members called under this provision may not be used for disaster relief or to suppress insurrection

Now, this is openly and honestly an insurrection and is described as such by the US federal government.

He signed a contract saying he'd do his frontline service (which he did) and say in the IRR if a national emergency came up, and that that did not include fighting an Insurgency.

He fulfilled his contractual obligations.

 

[lone wolf]

Thing is, it's a bureaucrat in charge of his paperwork - and there is nothing so righteous as a bureaucrat who's made a mistake. Perhaps if someone higher up the food chain were to look into things? All the same, the idea of leaving the country would earn him a deeper-reaching black mark on his permanent record than punching out that paper pusher would have.

Woof!