What side of the street are you working? What is Unionism but militant socialism ... and I heard your blessings of the brotherhoods....
Woof!
Socialism Is the Only Way
- Thread starter darkbeaver
- Start date
What side of the street are you working? What is Unionism but militant socialism ... and I heard your blessings of the brotherhoods....
Woof!
To bad for you that having been in a union I found it more democratic than our own goverment.
If unions were so socialist then why do many exsist in the private sector?
I could say that most folks who hate unions have no real power in life and have a jealous streak beside their yellow one.
If unions were so socialist then why do many exsist in the private sector?
I could say that most folks who hate unions have no real power in life and have a jealous streak beside their yellow one.
Because private sector is decidedly capitalist. Yeah, you could say just about anything you want to say. Guess that's the price some of us pay for freedom. Really, it might be good things if you weren't seeking an adversary and you knew what you were talking about.
Woof!
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I see your point...
From my perspective, that makes "Capitalism" a method rather than a true ideology...
As such, it should have no standing as a political point of view as it does not meet the basic tests set down for a legitimate political ideology....
But in practical terms, wealth will always accumulate in some form, my issue is how wealth is "vested" and therefore put to work....If there is no vision regarding what is to be achieved through the accumulation of wealth, you end up with a society dominated by chaos....eventually...To my mind, its the obvious outcome, given our current world conditions....
Sorry little doggy but I just choose not to paint myself into an idealogical corner like the left and you do.
FreeBird are ya? Or maybe you just don't like commitment and the responsibility that goes with it or possibly you don't know what you are so you're content to be nothing.:lol:
Yeah ... I suppose knowing something might be just too much for your pointy little haid to handle....
Woof!
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In my view, your comparison of the relative GDP to government ratios is in error...
King George VI in the 1940's acknowledged the relationship between population and the comparative rate of industrialization, stating that the lesser the density of population, the greater the barrier to industrialization...
It would follow that a country with a dispersed population would have a higher cost of government than one of higher population densities...
In comparisons of this sort between the US and Canada are essentially comparing apples and oranges....Compare US performance to its peer group in terms of population density and disbursal and see how they stack up on a per capita basis....
I am a member of Real Union Of Social Science (RUSS) which is not a political organization. RUSS will not endorse any political party that does not totally support the interest of the working class. At this time, the only political party that fits this catagory is the Socialist Labor Party (of America).
I posted a comment on Bill Moyers Journal offering:
Poll: Are Unions Over?
Answer our poll question, then debate the topic below.
748 total votes 87% voted no to the question and 12% voted yes
http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/blog/2007/06/poll_are_unions_over.html
Here is my comment:
Labor union demise.
There is almost always one key element omitted when discussing the union question! Before getting into that, the air would be cleared if set and distinguishable terminology is used. To start off, since capitalism is generally accepted as being the best of all possible systems, it follows that there must be a capitalist class, proceeding from that there must be capitalists who belong to that class. Since that class owns the means of production and it is a tiny minority of the population, then the majority are compelled to work for the capitalists. The majority being workers, it follows that they must belong to the working class. Therefore exists a class divided society.
Now, back to the key omitted element. We had, right here in Minneapolis, the creation of a union in the early 1930’s. Who created it? Workers! Well, if you go by the vague jargon in common usage today, you might miss their existence as workers; we are bombarded day after day with reports on consumers and their confidence. Nothing about workers and what they feel about their plight. That was not the case with the union referred to. It was the Teamsters, and they were not subjected to the ceaseless vague jargon in prevalent usage today, identifying them as “consumers,” with their main concern being whether they had “consumer confidence” enough to go to the store to buy the necessities for life. They knew that they belonged to the working class and they knew that their interest was in opposition to that of the capitalist class. They knew that they were not getting enough pay to buy the necessities for life needed by them and their wives and children. They were class conscious. They didn’t need anyone to tell them what to do. On their own part, they had the gumption to organize and form a union. That in spite of the actual fire power used against them as it was done all over the United States by the proud back shooters (themselves being members of the working class, mind you) who dutifully served the capitalist class, but that is another part of the story.
It didn’t take long for the capitalist class, since direct force including the “blacklist,” was ineffective. It only riled up workers more and besides, of most importance, it interfered with production and the making of profit. What to do about it? Eureka! We don’t know which capitalist or group of capitalists came up with the panacea, what matters is that it solved the problem, production went on uninterrupted, and profits kept rolling in. It was the creation of the pro capitalist union leader, what some have referred to as the “labor merchant” or the “labor faker.” He says to the workers, “Your busy doing your job and strikes always stop your pay and you get behind on your rent and grocery bill. Let me save you the misery, I will handle the boss.” Gradually with the compliance of the labor faker, the vague jargon sets into what we have today, “consumers” and “consumer confidence.” Capitalist class, what? Working class, what? Class consciousness, what?
It didn’t take a “Hitler” to wreck the unions in the US, as was done in Germany. Calmly and persistently, with an occasional ranting and raving against the boss of course, it was the pro capitalist union leader, the “labor merchant,” the “labor faker” who performed the dastardly deed. During all this time, with the assistance of union labor for its operation, the media and the educational system has been aiding and abetting the obscuring of workers’ class consciousness. Until finally, labor faker union leaders have rendered themselves into an endangered species. The top ones, of course, having seen to it to become virtual capitalists themselves before their demise.
From capitalist use of force against the working class, to guile by using the labor faker to increase profits, comes the next obstacle to increasing profits, the Constitution of the United State. What now? Eureka! Again, we don’t know which capitalist or group of capitalist came up with the replacement panacea, all that matters is that its working, profits are going up by leaps and bounds. Go to a country with a huge working class that is largely unemployed or marginally employed and best of all, a country with a Constitution not fit to wipe your, you know what, with–China. For the promise of a couple of fish heads and a bowl of rice a day, Mao roused the starving peasants to the glory of the Korean War human slaughterhouse. Now, for not much more, the Chinese workers submit to slaving away until they are driven into the ground, while the Chinese ruling class, once considered by the US to be tyrants behind the bamboo curtain, hell bent on spreading communism, serve as the new labor merchant to US capitalism.
Just as did our home grown labor merchant, the Chinese replacement makes sure to get a cut out of the action to become a well heeled virtual capitalist. The hitch is, just as our home grown labor merchant helped bring about its own endangered species status so will the Chinese labor merchant despot. Just how long is the scheme of merchandise streaming into the US from China, with American workers’ payment continually being lowered, going to last? Just how long is the consumers’ consumer confidence going to be sustained to remove the glut of merchandise on store selves, so they can be refilled again and again, while the caravan of super container ships from China come streaming day after day into the California docks to be unloaded?
Class conscious unions, anyone? Return of workers having the gumption to organize, form and operate unions by their own initiative, anyone? Or do we just sit in front of the boob tube and wait for the inevitable? Another breed of labor merchant, maybe!
During all this time, the merchant in question does not sell to the highest bidder as was done with the chattel slave on the auction block. He or she sells to the lowest bid of each capitalist concern, the commodity labor power. The labor merchant shill is on the take, getting paid on the side for offering the work time of workers at the lowest possible hourly pay. Not only is the labor merchant on the take with the capitalist class, he or she leeches union dues from workers to perform such a dastardly deed. Labor time is merchandise, a commodity, an investment of capital by the capitalist class. Right now that capital (commodity) is cheapest in China.
Here is one class conscious union that doesn’t beat around the bush. But that is hardly enough for the total working class, but a start.
http://socialismmarxdeleonforarealunion.org/index.html
Don
I posted a comment on Bill Moyers Journal offering:
Poll: Are Unions Over?
Answer our poll question, then debate the topic below.
748 total votes 87% voted no to the question and 12% voted yes
http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/blog/2007/06/poll_are_unions_over.html
Here is my comment:
Labor union demise.
There is almost always one key element omitted when discussing the union question! Before getting into that, the air would be cleared if set and distinguishable terminology is used. To start off, since capitalism is generally accepted as being the best of all possible systems, it follows that there must be a capitalist class, proceeding from that there must be capitalists who belong to that class. Since that class owns the means of production and it is a tiny minority of the population, then the majority are compelled to work for the capitalists. The majority being workers, it follows that they must belong to the working class. Therefore exists a class divided society.
Now, back to the key omitted element. We had, right here in Minneapolis, the creation of a union in the early 1930’s. Who created it? Workers! Well, if you go by the vague jargon in common usage today, you might miss their existence as workers; we are bombarded day after day with reports on consumers and their confidence. Nothing about workers and what they feel about their plight. That was not the case with the union referred to. It was the Teamsters, and they were not subjected to the ceaseless vague jargon in prevalent usage today, identifying them as “consumers,” with their main concern being whether they had “consumer confidence” enough to go to the store to buy the necessities for life. They knew that they belonged to the working class and they knew that their interest was in opposition to that of the capitalist class. They knew that they were not getting enough pay to buy the necessities for life needed by them and their wives and children. They were class conscious. They didn’t need anyone to tell them what to do. On their own part, they had the gumption to organize and form a union. That in spite of the actual fire power used against them as it was done all over the United States by the proud back shooters (themselves being members of the working class, mind you) who dutifully served the capitalist class, but that is another part of the story.
It didn’t take long for the capitalist class, since direct force including the “blacklist,” was ineffective. It only riled up workers more and besides, of most importance, it interfered with production and the making of profit. What to do about it? Eureka! We don’t know which capitalist or group of capitalists came up with the panacea, what matters is that it solved the problem, production went on uninterrupted, and profits kept rolling in. It was the creation of the pro capitalist union leader, what some have referred to as the “labor merchant” or the “labor faker.” He says to the workers, “Your busy doing your job and strikes always stop your pay and you get behind on your rent and grocery bill. Let me save you the misery, I will handle the boss.” Gradually with the compliance of the labor faker, the vague jargon sets into what we have today, “consumers” and “consumer confidence.” Capitalist class, what? Working class, what? Class consciousness, what?
It didn’t take a “Hitler” to wreck the unions in the US, as was done in Germany. Calmly and persistently, with an occasional ranting and raving against the boss of course, it was the pro capitalist union leader, the “labor merchant,” the “labor faker” who performed the dastardly deed. During all this time, with the assistance of union labor for its operation, the media and the educational system has been aiding and abetting the obscuring of workers’ class consciousness. Until finally, labor faker union leaders have rendered themselves into an endangered species. The top ones, of course, having seen to it to become virtual capitalists themselves before their demise.
From capitalist use of force against the working class, to guile by using the labor faker to increase profits, comes the next obstacle to increasing profits, the Constitution of the United State. What now? Eureka! Again, we don’t know which capitalist or group of capitalist came up with the replacement panacea, all that matters is that its working, profits are going up by leaps and bounds. Go to a country with a huge working class that is largely unemployed or marginally employed and best of all, a country with a Constitution not fit to wipe your, you know what, with–China. For the promise of a couple of fish heads and a bowl of rice a day, Mao roused the starving peasants to the glory of the Korean War human slaughterhouse. Now, for not much more, the Chinese workers submit to slaving away until they are driven into the ground, while the Chinese ruling class, once considered by the US to be tyrants behind the bamboo curtain, hell bent on spreading communism, serve as the new labor merchant to US capitalism.
Just as did our home grown labor merchant, the Chinese replacement makes sure to get a cut out of the action to become a well heeled virtual capitalist. The hitch is, just as our home grown labor merchant helped bring about its own endangered species status so will the Chinese labor merchant despot. Just how long is the scheme of merchandise streaming into the US from China, with American workers’ payment continually being lowered, going to last? Just how long is the consumers’ consumer confidence going to be sustained to remove the glut of merchandise on store selves, so they can be refilled again and again, while the caravan of super container ships from China come streaming day after day into the California docks to be unloaded?
Class conscious unions, anyone? Return of workers having the gumption to organize, form and operate unions by their own initiative, anyone? Or do we just sit in front of the boob tube and wait for the inevitable? Another breed of labor merchant, maybe!
During all this time, the merchant in question does not sell to the highest bidder as was done with the chattel slave on the auction block. He or she sells to the lowest bid of each capitalist concern, the commodity labor power. The labor merchant shill is on the take, getting paid on the side for offering the work time of workers at the lowest possible hourly pay. Not only is the labor merchant on the take with the capitalist class, he or she leeches union dues from workers to perform such a dastardly deed. Labor time is merchandise, a commodity, an investment of capital by the capitalist class. Right now that capital (commodity) is cheapest in China.
Here is one class conscious union that doesn’t beat around the bush. But that is hardly enough for the total working class, but a start.
http://socialismmarxdeleonforarealunion.org/index.html
Don
I took a quick look at you sight and bookmarked it, looks like a lot of real good reading for me, thank-you very much, I'm the resident socialist. Pleased to meet you.
time
The GDP has nothing to do with debt it stands Gross Domestic Product and is what a country produces... Now debt is another matter the USA has a nine trillion dollar debt, while Canadas debt is around 500 billion the us has 10 x the population but almost twenty times the debt. it has caught up with them and thier dollar is tanking because of it, that mortgage fiasco, and the fact that China has switched to trading in euros and dumped trillions U.S. on the money markets.
The GDP has nothing to do with debt it stands Gross Domestic Product and is what a country produces... Now debt is another matter the USA has a nine trillion dollar debt, while Canadas debt is around 500 billion the us has 10 x the population but almost twenty times the debt. it has caught up with them and thier dollar is tanking because of it, that mortgage fiasco, and the fact that China has switched to trading in euros and dumped trillions U.S. on the money markets.
time
We have to keep the capitalists around until they invent replicators for food and goods.- then we can use them for feedstock;-)
I hadn't thought of a use for them till you mentioned it. If they are successful with thier GMO plans we're all screwed anyway.
Burn them! that's two uses for previously thought to be useless items in one night, Lester you got the smarts. GMO's are geneticly modified organisms which are realy bad and we got all kinds of them thanks to the filthy capitalist pigs. I'v got to sleep now goodnight.
are you talking frankenfood, cats that glow in the dark, cloned livestock, sh*t like dat- I think i'm more worried about Nanobots turning the planet into grey goo because of a programming error.
Lester, on captalists, "We have to keep the capitalists around until they invent replicators for food and goods.- then we can use them for feedstock"
You mean stock feed don't you?
GMO food, is like GM food, but worse... somehow. You may recall our friends from Saskatchewan and the conspiracy that spawned canola oil. Canola oil seemed to be a good and popular oil. Ha! At least, we thought they were our friends.
You mean stock feed don't you?
GMO food, is like GM food, but worse... somehow. You may recall our friends from Saskatchewan and the conspiracy that spawned canola oil. Canola oil seemed to be a good and popular oil. Ha! At least, we thought they were our friends.
time
Nope - feedstock is raw materials used to form a more useful product- eg...Put Capitalists in and get hockey pucks out.
Nope - feedstock is raw materials used to form a more useful product- eg...Put Capitalists in and get hockey pucks out.