Cut Israel Off

darkbeaver

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Jan 26, 2006
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Starving a Million Non-citizens because of "declining" violence?

Do police declare a paedophile as ok to release because of his "Declining" abuse level? .


Russia pounds Chechens into the Dirt.
China smashes every non-Han Minority every chance it gets.
The UK has only recently taken its boot of the neck of Northern Ireland
The Sudan is whiping out everyone who isn't Arab.
Then we can get into pre-fall Iraq and its sister happenings in Syria.

Sorry, thats just the way they world works. Israel, no matter how hard you slice it , is just not even in the top ten of the worlds bad.

A bad day of violence in Israel would be a good day for most African nations. And Average for many other nations that never make the news.

It makes the news because its the holy lands, thats about it. Its not anything to write home about in the world if you discount that fact.

Thanks for clearing that up for me Zzarchov, blowback is also a machination of the real world. It makes the news because they own the news, it's got zip to do with any holyland fairy tale. I discount the drivil you present as fact which in fact is no fact at all, and that's a fact.:smile:
 

earth_as_one

Time Out
Jan 5, 2006
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One difference is that Canada had a hand in creating Israel and as a result, we share some responsibility for the consequences. Canada's recognition of Israel resulted in millions of nationless refugees, which Israel collectively punishes in violation of international law, because a few of them resist Israel's ethnic cleansing, oppression and injustice by force.

Canada has spoken out against these other atrocities you mention, but continues to support Israel's "measured responses".

Israeli air strike kills 7 Canadians in Lebanon
July 16, 2006

Seven Canadians — including four children — were killed in an Israeli air raid that hit a Lebanese town on the border with Israel on Sunday. Three Canadians were seriously injured. Israel has acknowledged carrying out the attack...

http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/national/2006/07/16/lebanon-canadians.html

Rather than condemn this attack, our PM defended Israel's right to kill unarmed Canadian civilians.

Harper stands by his comment on Israel's 'measured' response
July 18 2006

Prime Minister Stephen Harper offered brief condolences yesterday to the families of Canadians killed in Lebanon, but has not asked Israel for an explanation for their deaths.

And while he offered more details, Harper did not back down from his comment that Israel's bombing of Lebanon was a "measured" response...

http://www.canada.com/montrealgazette/news/story.html?id=296184ac-63d1-4dca-a85c-1552513c7490

Canada votes in favor of obscuring Israel's war crimes:

Canada rejects UN council's censure of Israel
July 6, 2006

Canada voted against a United Nations Human Rights Council resolution Thursday that condemns Israel's actions in the Gaza Strip and dispatches a fact-finding team to the region.

The resolution, which passed by a 29-11 vote, condemns Israel's military attacks against Palestinian ministries, power plants and bridges...

http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/national/2006/07/06/un-humanrights.html

Israel's collective punishment of innocent civilians violates International Law:

Gaza: Israel’s Fuel and Power Cuts Violate Laws of War

Civilians Should Not Be Penalized for Rocket Attacks by Armed Groups

(New York, October 29, 2007) – Israel’s decision to limit fuel and electricity to the Gaza Strip in retaliation for unlawful rocket attacks by armed groups amounts to collective punishment against the civilian population of Gaza, in violation of international law, and will worsen the humanitarian crisis there, Human Rights Watch said today...

...In September, the Israeli cabinet declared Gaza “hostile territory” and voted to “restrict the passage of various goods to the Gaza Strip and reduce the supply of fuel and electricity.” Since then, Israel has increasingly blocked supplies into Gaza, letting in limited amounts of essential foodstuffs, medicine and humanitarian supplies. According to Holmes, the number of humanitarian convoys entering Gaza had dropped to 1,500 in September from 3,000 in July.

“Cutting fuel and electricity obstructs vital services,” Whitson said. “Operating rooms, sewage pumps, and water well pumps all need electricity to run.”...

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2007/10/29/isrlpa17198.htm

As a result, Gaza has problems like this:

Sewage flood causes Gaza deaths

At least five people have been killed after a sewage treatment pool collapsed and flooded a village in the Gaza Strip, Palestinian officials said...

...Health ministry officials said the dead included two toddlers and a 70-year-old woman...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6498835.stm

27 September 2007
...from the Permanent Observer of Palestine to the United Nations addressed to the Secretary-General and the President of the Security Council

The Geneva Convention relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War, of 12 August 1949, explicitly prohibits an occupying Power from committing acts of violence, collective punishment and reprisal against protected persons, that is, the civilian population under its occupation. Regrettably, Israel, the occupying Power, continues to commit grave breaches of the Fourth Geneva Convention and flagrant violations of other relevant rules of international law, including human rights law, as it continues its military campaign against the Palestinian civilian population in the Occupied Palestinian Territory, particularly in the Gaza Strip.

In military attacks carried out yesterday and today in the Gaza Strip by Israel, at least 11 Palestinian civilians were killed and more than 20 others were seriously wounded. Using tanks, bulldozers and fighter planes, the Israeli occupying forces launched assaults primarily on the northern town of Beit Hanoun, whose civilian population has repeatedly suffered from the occupying Power's violent onslaughts...

http://domino.un.org/unispal.nsf/db...c506151825fb31f0852573680049713e!OpenDocument

Canada in this case, supports Israel's war crimes and crimes against humanity. That's the difference between Israel and these other atrocities.
 

earth_as_one

Time Out
Jan 5, 2006
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In my view, the Arabs just have to stop blaming everyone else for their problems, get off their "a***s" and start doing for their people what Isreal has done for theres. They need to stop living in the past and start looking to the future. Hate isn't the way to go. Don't shoot Isreali's and they won't shoot you. Period. Nothing of any consequence will happen until the Arabs can get their s**t together.

JMO

The people who live in this part of Israel lack citizenship and live under Israeli occupation and/or seige. Israel controls nearly everything entering or leaving the Israeli occupied territory of Gaza. Basic services are unreliable to non-existant. The region is in the middle of a civil war. Your solution is to "get off their a***s"?

Last Updated 19 March 2003
Economic output in the Gaza Strip - under the responsibility of the Palestinian Authority since the Cairo Agreement of May 1994 - declined by about one-third between 1992 and 1996. The downturn was largely the result of Israeli closure policies - the imposition of generalized border closures in response to security incidents in Israel - which disrupted previously established labor and commodity market relationships between Israel and the WBGS (West Bank and Gaza Strip).

The most serious negative social effect of this downturn was the emergence of high unemployment; unemployment in the WBGS during the 1980s was generally under 5%; by 1995 it had risen to over 20%. Israel's use of comprehensive closures decreased during the next few years and, in 1998, Israel implemented new policies to reduce the impact of closures and other security procedures on the movement of Palestinian goods and labor. These changes fueled an almost three-year-long economic recovery in the West Bank and Gaza Strip; real GDP grew by 5% in 1998 and 6% in 1999.

Recovery was upended in the last quarter of 2000 with the outbreak of Palestinian violence, triggering tight Israeli closures of Palestinian self-rule areas and a severe disruption of trade and labor movements. In 2001, and even more severely in early 2002, internal turmoil and Israeli military measures in Palestinian Authority areas resulted in the destruction of capital plant and administrative structure, widespread business closures, and a sharp drop in GDP.

Another major loss has been the decline in income earned by Palestinian workers in Israel.

http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/12/04/america/04bushremarks.php

The situation has become a lot more desperate since. This nasty business is in plain site for anyone who cares/dares to look:



.Razed land and an Israeli sniper tower in Al Sayafa. The red roofs in the background are the illegal Israeli settlement of Nissanit.


Israeli sniper towers and the building of a confiscated Girls' School give Israeli occupying forces nearly complete surveillance over Hebron's old city. These hilltop posts are paired with rooftop positions inside the old city to control Palestinian movement and keep constant watch over the civilian population.



http://www.rcnv.org/gaza/pictures.htm

[FONT=Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Web Resources for Israel/Palestine[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]As Americans we find it increasingly difficult to find accurate and comprehensive news and analysis on the Middle East. Our corporate media focuses on the enduring cycle of violence and rhetorical flourishes of political leaders. Meanwhile, in both Israel and Palestine thousands of people work tirelesly to achieve a just and lasting peace. The least we can do, therefore, is to recognize the incredible contribution of these individuals and organizations. [/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]We must look beyond the superficiality of our corporate media to achieve a deeper sense of the issues relevant to the people of Israel and Palestine. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Educate Yourself![/FONT]
http://www.rcnv.org/gaza/links.htm
 

Zzarchov

House Member
Aug 28, 2006
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Other national Problems Canada Helped with Creating (to an equal degree as Israel):

Russia
China
Sudan
Zimbabwe
Sierre Leone
Ivory Coast
Burma
Serbia
Syria
Jordan


So lets start by toppling Syria and Jordan, making them at least as democratic as Israel first. Then we'll deal with all three of them at once. But we'll work on those in the region most need of help, how about that?

Israel just isn't as bad as you make it out to be. That isn't to say its good, It's not like I'd choose to be a Palestinian. But I'd be a Palestinian before I chose to life in Darfour, or before I chose to like in Uzbekistan or Sierre Leone.

Hell, I'd choose Gaza over the South African Aids shanty towns.

Perspective, There are far worse hellholes than Palestine, and it I get most pissed off that people spit on those truly suffering to play up Palestine as if its the worst place in the world. Im not saying its good, Im not even saying its not in the bottom 10%, but there are worse places far easier to fix than Palestine. Hell, Palestine would be easy for Palestinians to make a thousand times better, all they have to do is stop playing with explosives and shooting each other. The people in darfour are gonna get hacked to bits if they fight back or not.

Side note:

Gaza is worse due to no fault of Israel, thats Palestinians choosing to kill themselves. They can take responsibility for their own actions.
 

earth_as_one

Time Out
Jan 5, 2006
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Nice try, but Canada didn't vote to create these countries or their problems. Canada and the other nations which voted to create Israel share responsibility with Israel for these people and their situation. Canada is not actively participating in collective punishment in these other countries.

Canada's withholding funds from Palestinians 'criminal': Carter
December 9, 2006

Former U.S. president Jimmy Carter says the decision by Canada and other nations to withhold money from the Hamas-led Palestinian government is "a crime."

Israel and western donors such as Canada have demanded Hamas renounce violence, recognize Israel's right to exist and accept past peace agreements. Hamas, which is committed to Israel's destruction despite its stated offer of a long-term truce, rejects the conditions.

"It's a crime against the people of Palestine," Carter told CBC News in an exclusive interview from New York.

"For Canada and others to punish the Palestinian people because they voted for their candidates of choice, I think is literally a crime."

The statesman and prolific author defended his harsh criticism of Israeli policy in his latest book, saying he hopes to erode the "impenetrable wall" that blocks the U.S. public from seeing the plight of Palestinians...

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2006/12/08/carter-israel.html


Yes there are worse hell-holes on earth, but none of the above countries has an ongoing 60 year ethnic cleansing campaign.

Yes there are countries where inequality exists, but none of them are in the process of walling in millions of their non-citizens.

I agree that Palestinians should take responsibility for their actions. So should Israel.
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
41,035
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RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia
How about Annapolis eh, peace at last eh, Uncle Sam can't seem to hatch a workin peace plan but it's only been what 30 years give or take a decade. I'm beginning to think somethink isn't right. How do you produce a peace treaty between two sides when one of the democratically elected governments is not there, and not there because the other side and the other sides sponser in genocide forbid it. My goodness I almost believe extermination proceeds uninterrupted. And that's an unforgivable crime against humanity. Will we watch it till the end?:-(
 

Zzarchov

House Member
Aug 28, 2006
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Nice try, but Canada didn't vote to create these countries or their problems. Canada and the other nations which voted to create Israel share responsibility with Israel for these people and their situation. Canada is not actively participating in collective punishment in these other countries.

We didn't vote to establish Israel. Israeli's Established Israel, we may have voted to recognize the facts on the ground, but that hardly gives us any responsibility.

We were as much a part of the creation of Syria as we were Israel. We also played quite active roles in Syria, Russia, China and South Africa.

Yes there are worse hell-holes on earth, but none of the above countries has an ongoing 60 year ethnic cleansing campaign.

You mean like China? Russia? Serbia? Most of those ethnic cleansing campaigns have been going on far longer and more effective than Israel.

Gaza isn't majority Jewish, But Xinjan sure as hell is now Majority Han and minority Uygor, in 60 short years.

Yes there are countries where inequality exists, but none of them are in the process of walling in millions of their non-citizens.
Wall in non citizens to their own homeland? Like the US is building a wall? Or do you mean the other walls nations have built to divide boundries? Plenty of them "walling in" million of their own citizens/residents. Minefields and killzones are also used alot.

I agree that Palestinians should take responsibility for their actions. So should Israel.

Israel has, it knows and is fine with the current situation. If Palestine wants a change (ie, being independant) they really have to make it more than a stupid decision. Thus far they can't even not kill themselves, let alone support themselves.

How about less focus on blowing up Israel more on building up Palestine. Its what proto-Israel did when Arab militias were murdering them in Riots prior to its independance.

Whine less about how hard up you are (which isn't that bad in the grande scheme) and just make things better.
 

iARTthere4iam

Electoral Member
Jul 23, 2006
533
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Pointy Rocks
How about Annapolis eh, peace at last eh, Uncle Sam can't seem to hatch a workin peace plan but it's only been what 30 years give or take a decade. I'm beginning to think somethink isn't right. How do you produce a peace treaty between two sides when one of the democratically elected governments is not there, and not there because the other side and the other sides sponser in genocide forbid it. My goodness I almost believe extermination proceeds uninterrupted. And that's an unforgivable crime against humanity. Will we watch it till the end?:-(

I will assume that you are not against a peace deal between the Israelis and Palestininans. Assuming further that Israelis want security and the Palestinians want a nation. what would the negotiations be like if Darkbeaver not Uncle Sam were conducting them? What is the solution? I await your enlightened response.
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
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I will assume that you are not against a peace deal between the Israelis and Palestininans. Assuming further that Israelis want security and the Palestinians want a nation. what would the negotiations be like if Darkbeaver not Uncle Sam were conducting them? What is the solution? I await your enlightened response.

Well thank-you for the oportunity ART, let me begin by saying it is an honour to speak to you this evening ladies and gentlemen. WE all want peace in the middle east. I think the best way to ensure that objective would be to arm the Palestinians with the latest weaponry available up to the level of thier peace lovin nieghbours. This would ensure enhancement of an underutilized combat zone. There is no reason why Canadian children have to go to bed hungry because both there parents have been laid off at the tank factory. They want to resolve the issues I'm sure that DB munitions can give them the tools figurativly speaking of course. Speedy but not to speedy resolution every-body wins.:smile: Please enjoy the buffet prepared by the good people at General Dynamic. Hows that for problem solveing?
 

iARTthere4iam

Electoral Member
Jul 23, 2006
533
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Pointy Rocks
Well thank-you for the oportunity ART, let me begin by saying it is an honour to speak to you this evening ladies and gentlemen. WE all want peace in the middle east. I think the best way to ensure that objective would be to arm the Palestinians with the latest weaponry available up to the level of thier peace lovin nieghbours. This would ensure enhancement of an underutilized combat zone. There is no reason why Canadian children have to go to bed hungry because both there parents have been laid off at the tank factory. They want to resolve the issues I'm sure that DB munitions can give them the tools figurativly speaking of course. Speedy but not to speedy resolution every-body wins.:smile: Please enjoy the buffet prepared by the good people at General Dynamic. Hows that for problem solveing?

You are clearly a true humanitarian and a wonderful person.

Although I don't have your credentials, I have a slightly different outlook, though I wouldn't claim that my plan is nearly as enlightened as yours I do take the situation in the "holy land" (laugh, sigh, hrghmmph) seriously. Here is my plan.

Israel should abandon the west Bank (having already left Gaza) and should declare it will no longer take any responsibility for the two territories (Gaza and the West Bank). The Palestinians should take advantage of this opportunity to establish a nation. These areas would be treated as a foreign nation. Any hostile action will be treated as would any hostile foreign nation. Simple straightforward and done. Israel should not inhabit or occupy these lands. the Palestinians should have the responsibility for their future and that includes war against Israel.
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
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RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia
You are clearly a true humanitarian and a wonderful person.

Although I don't have your credentials, I have a slightly different outlook, though I wouldn't claim that my plan is nearly as enlightened as yours I do take the situation in the "holy land" (laugh, sigh, hrghmmph) seriously. Here is my plan.

Israel should abandon the west Bank (having already left Gaza) and should declare it will no longer take any responsibility for the two territories (Gaza and the West Bank). The Palestinians should take advantage of this opportunity to establish a nation. These areas would be treated as a foreign nation. Any hostile action will be treated as would any hostile foreign nation. Simple straightforward and done. Israel should not inhabit or occupy these lands. the Palestinians should have the responsibility for their future and that includes war against Israel.

That is a fair and decent suggestion, better than mine. You require the cooperation of one side that stands to loose what they haven't already stolen. They will not ever give up that potential willingly. No nation would, to give up an advantage like that I think would be unique. I cannot think of when if ever it happened. The conflict continues precisely because it is so totally one sided in it's present form, as it was designed to be.
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
41,035
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RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia
You are clearly a true humanitarian and a wonderful person.

Although I don't have your credentials, I have a slightly different outlook, though I wouldn't claim that my plan is nearly as enlightened as yours I do take the situation in the "holy land" (laugh, sigh, hrghmmph) seriously. Here is my plan.

Israel should abandon the west Bank (having already left Gaza) and should declare it will no longer take any responsibility for the two territories (Gaza and the West Bank). The Palestinians should take advantage of this opportunity to establish a nation. These areas would be treated as a foreign nation. Any hostile action will be treated as would any hostile foreign nation. Simple straightforward and done. Israel should not inhabit or occupy these lands. the Palestinians should have the responsibility for their future and that includes war against Israel.

That is a fair and decent suggestion, better than mine. You require the cooperation of one side that stands to loose what they haven't already stolen. They will not ever give up that potential willingly. No nation would, to give up an advantage like that I think would be unique. I cannot think of when if ever it happened. The conflict continues precisely because it is so totally one sided in it's present form, as it was designed to be. Certainly your plan is best and no resonable disinterested person would argue with you. But it requires parity, something the maintainers have no intention of providing. My plan horrific as it would be would end the conflict, and in many ways that would be better than another fifty years of murder.
 

iARTthere4iam

Electoral Member
Jul 23, 2006
533
3
18
Pointy Rocks
That is a fair and decent suggestion, better than mine. You require the cooperation of one side that stands to loose what they haven't already stolen. They will not ever give up that potential willingly. No nation would, to give up an advantage like that I think would be unique. I cannot think of when if ever it happened. The conflict continues precisely because it is so totally one sided in it's present form, as it was designed to be. Certainly your plan is best and no resonable disinterested person would argue with you. But it requires parity, something the maintainers have no intention of providing. My plan horrific as it would be would end the conflict, and in many ways that would be better than another fifty years of murder.

Boldness is required. Status quo is truly unnacceptable. Cheers, friend. And good night.
 

Zzarchov

House Member
Aug 28, 2006
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You are clearly a true humanitarian and a wonderful person.

Although I don't have your credentials, I have a slightly different outlook, though I wouldn't claim that my plan is nearly as enlightened as yours I do take the situation in the "holy land" (laugh, sigh, hrghmmph) seriously. Here is my plan.

Israel should abandon the west Bank (having already left Gaza) and should declare it will no longer take any responsibility for the two territories (Gaza and the West Bank). The Palestinians should take advantage of this opportunity to establish a nation. These areas would be treated as a foreign nation. Any hostile action will be treated as would any hostile foreign nation. Simple straightforward and done. Israel should not inhabit or occupy these lands. the Palestinians should have the responsibility for their future and that includes war against Israel.


Problem number 1.) When 10 minutes later attacks are still launched at Israel, what is Israel going to do to retaliate against a foriegn nation at war with it?

Hint, It will be forced to invade and occupy.

Your plan is basically what they are doing, and then the obvious effects of it.
 

iARTthere4iam

Electoral Member
Jul 23, 2006
533
3
18
Pointy Rocks
Problem number 1.) When 10 minutes later attacks are still launched at Israel, what is Israel going to do to retaliate against a foriegn nation at war with it?

Hint, It will be forced to invade and occupy.

Your plan is basically what they are doing, and then the obvious effects of it.

It will do something very important. It will give the Palestinians an opportunity. It will reset the situation. The main argument againt Israel is that it is occupying land legally entitled to become the Palestinian state. My plan will offer a way for Palestine to emerge. If the Palestinian proto-state cannot form itself into a nation with rules and laws and control within it's borders then perhaps history will at least see that the lost opportunity was not the result of Israel's refusal to allow the Palestinians their chance.. I am not suggesting that the birth of an independent Palestine will be easy, but just as the birth of Israel was a fiery and difficult one, so too will the birth of Palestine. A slim chance and hard work are the best that can be hoped. The Palestinians know the rules, will they play? Will the Israelis? I can hardly hope that it could happen. If there is another way it is not obvious.
 

Just the Facts

House Member
Oct 15, 2004
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That plan has been on the table since at least Oslo I believe. The Palestinians nixed it saying they want right of return. The problem is that it's not really about a Palestinian state, it's about Israel.

I see your point though.
 

earth_as_one

Time Out
Jan 5, 2006
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We didn't vote to establish Israel. Israeli's Established Israel, we may have voted to recognize the facts on the ground, but that hardly gives us any responsibility.

How true. Canada and the rest of the world stood on the sidelines and watched Zionists commit their crimes against humanity. By the time Canada and other nations at the UN voted to partition Palestine, Zionists had already cleansed huge parts of Palestine of Palestinian civilians. How brave is it to rape, torture and murder unarmed non-Jewish farmers, dentists, firemen, housewives, schoolchildren, priests, architects... (civilians)? How does one reason with heavily armed foreigners on a mission from god to take your home, your land, your property and your future?

Instead of standing up at the UN and at least making a statement demanding justice, our government voted legitimize Zionist war crimes and crimes against humanity. To this day our leaders make statements like this:
"Our government believes in a two-state solution in a secure, democratic and prosperous Israel living beside a viable, democratic and peaceful Palestinian state."
http://canadiancoalition.com/forum/messages/19573.shtml

That's not a call for justice and equality. Our leaders don't care about Palestine being secure or prosperous and their actions since Palestinians democratically elected Hamas, demonstrate what kind of a democracy Canada seeks for Palestinians.

We were as much a part of the creation of Syria as we were Israel. We also played quite active roles in Syria, Russia, China and South Africa.

Really? I can't remember Canada making statement in favor of inequality or supporting injustice and oppression in these countries. You'll have to back that statement up with proof.

You mean like China? Russia? Serbia? Most of those ethnic cleansing campaigns have been going on far longer and more effective than Israel.

Can you post a link where Canada has stated a position in favor of these activities? Can you point out examples of these countries turning millions of people into non-citizens?

Gaza isn't majority Jewish, But Xinjan sure as hell is now Majority Han and minority Uygor, in 60 short years.

Did China create a walled enclave and then forcibly relocate millions of people off their land and behind a wall? Do Uygor's have citizenship? Are the Uygor's being shot and bombed on a daily basis?

Wall in non citizens to their own homeland? Like the US is building a wall? Or do you mean the other walls nations have built to divide boundries? Plenty of them "walling in" million of their own citizens/residents. Minefields and killzones are also used alot.

The US does not occupy Mexico. Mexicans have citizenship and a right to self-determination. Mexican can travel through Mexico without passing through American military checkpoints.

Israel has, it knows and is fine with the current situation. If Palestine wants a change (ie, being independant) they really have to make it more than a stupid decision. Thus far they can't even not kill themselves, let alone support themselves.

No doubt Israel is fine with killing Palestinians and stealing their land and future. And you don't see that as a problem?

How about less focus on blowing up Israel more on building up Palestine. Its what proto-Israel did when Arab militias were murdering them in Riots prior to its independance.

The focus for the last sixty years have been on blowing up the parts of Palestine still occupied by Palestinians. Those riots were a result of Zionist taking land by force. Atrocities were committed by both sides. The difference is the murdering of Arabs never stopped.

Whine less about how hard up you are (which isn't that bad in the grande scheme) and just make things better.

Regarding Israel's generous peace offers:

Despite pro-Israeli propaganda claiming Palestinians have turned down generous peace offers from Israel, that's not how Palestinians see it. The above agreements would have traded Palestinian claims to arable land and aquifiers for toxic waste dumps and desert, given the Israeli military complete control the Palestinian economy, divided Palestine into a series of Buntustans and left millions of non-citizens stranded in refugee camps without hope for a better future.

The Myth of the Generous Offer
Distorting the Camp David negotiations


http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=1113

Israel has never offered Palestinians a fair agreement. What Israel has offered are "take it or leave it" proposals which would force Palestinians to accept the status quo or face more war. Israel never stopped destroying Palestinian homes, taking their land and property since the beginning. Israel has done this during periods of relative calm and during periods of relative conflict. The amount Israel has now taken and destroyed makes a viable Palestinian state impossible.

The only possible solution which addresses the basic injustice and oppression suffered by Israel's non-citizens and ethnic cleansing victims is to grant these people full Israeli citizenship and let democracy determine Israel's future. A one state solution.
 

lone wolf

Grossly Underrated
Nov 25, 2006
32,493
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In the bush near Sudbury
Israel is very heavily into murdering ten Palestinians for every Israeli killed, flattening entire villages if one house might be tainted (Hmm... Same rhetoric of a Hitler speech) and poking and prodding to retaliation so someone else can violate the ceasefire. I still say move Israel to Arizona.

Woof!
 

earth_as_one

Time Out
Jan 5, 2006
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The way I see it, its not a numbers game, but a question of basic human rights. After 60 years these people still aren't citizens of any recognized country? The only recognized country with jurisdiction over this area is Israel. If these people were Jewish they would already be Israeli citizens. Seems to me, religion is being used to deny these people their fundamental human rights.
 

Zzarchov

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Aug 28, 2006
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Quoting Zzarchov
We didn't vote to establish Israel. Israeli's Established Israel, we may have voted to recognize the facts on the ground, but that hardly gives us any responsibility.

How true. Canada and the rest of the world stood on the sidelines and watched Zionists commit their crimes against humanity. By the time Canada and other nations at the UN voted to partition Palestine, Zionists had already cleansed huge parts of Palestine of Palestinian civilians. How brave is it to rape, torture and murder unarmed non-Jewish farmers, dentists, firemen, housewives, schoolchildren, priests, architects... (civilians)? How does one reason with heavily armed foreigners on a mission from god to take your home, your land, your property and your future?

You mean like 20 years earlier when foriegn arabs came to support their local brethren rioting and killing jews, forcing them into ghettos and taking their property. What goes around comes around.


Instead of standing up at the UN and at least making a statement demanding justice, our government voted legitimize Zionist war crimes and crimes against humanity. To this day our leaders make statements like this:

Their all dead, no sense living in the past. Few is anyone alive is currently responsible for any crimes you described, those who are will be dead soon.



That's not a call for justice and equality. Our leaders don't care about Palestine being secure or prosperous and their actions since Palestinians democratically elected Hamas, demonstrate what kind of a democracy Canada seeks for Palestinians.

You need a lesson in democracy. Because Palestine votes one way, doesn't mean a sovereign nation has to like it or bow to their whims. You can vote for Hamas if you want, and we are free to cease giving you money. If we elected a nazi party to run Canada, we can expect Germany to end relations with us and we would have no right to claim about them denying our democracy.

Palestine can run their country as they see fit. If they vote for someone we consider an enemy then they can live with the consequences they chose for themselves.

Feeling that the world owes to support them universally and without consequence to their actions if anything, would imply they are not ready to run themselves and need a better political infrastructure in place.


We were as much a part of the creation of Syria as we were Israel. We also played quite active roles in Syria, Russia, China and South Africa.

Really? I can't remember Canada making statement in favor of inequality or supporting injustice and oppression in these countries. You'll have to back that statement up with proof.

You mean like our trade deals with Russia and China despite the increasing levels of inhumanity they show?

You mean like China? Russia? Serbia? Most of those ethnic cleansing campaigns have been going on far longer and more effective than Israel.

Can you post a link where Canada has stated a position in favor of these activities? Can you point out examples of these countries turning millions of people into non-citizens?

Israel never turned any citizens into non-citizens. Arab residents of Israel prior to its forming became full citizens. Now Russia has turned its entire immigrant population into non-citizens, unable to even work in the front of stores anymore (or anywhere they can be seen).

So again, Israel has been shown to not even be in the top 10.

Gaza isn't majority Jewish, But Xinjan sure as hell is now Majority Han and minority Uygor, in 60 short years.

Did China create a walled enclave and then forcibly relocate millions of people off their land and behind a wall? Do Uygor's have citizenship? Are the Uygor's being shot and bombed on a daily basis?

Actually yes, They did force Uygor's off their land when Mao sent the army to settle the west and take over the land, so they could crush any Uygor resistance (by shooting and driving them off their land). Uygor's had citizenship as a semantic, but seeing as it was a communist nation and a brutal one, that meant their citizenship was good only to be re-educated.

Wall in non citizens to their own homeland? Like the US is building a wall? Or do you mean the other walls nations have built to divide boundries? Plenty of them "walling in" million of their own citizens/residents. Minefields and killzones are also used alot.

The US does not occupy Mexico. Mexicans have citizenship and a right to self-determination. Mexican can travel through Mexico without passing through American military checkpoints.

And Gazan's can travel through Gaza on their own. Them not being able to travel through Israel to find work in Israel is not Israels problem. Mexican's cannot travel to the US and just get work (legally).

Now when we get to Russia and Chinese Minorities being resettled...



Israel has, it knows and is fine with the current situation. If Palestine wants a change (ie, being independant) they really have to make it more than a stupid decision. Thus far they can't even not kill themselves, let alone support themselves.

No doubt Israel is fine with killing Palestinians and stealing their land and future. And you don't see that as a problem?

Why? Palestinians have shown they have no problem killing and stealing land and future. What goes around comes around. If you wanna break the cycle.. you can do it while your on the top. Arab palestinians didn't when they were on top, but apparently when on the bottom their mind changes.

If in a poor position, they can show that their independance will be something other than a continuation of the cycle.


How about less focus on blowing up Israel more on building up Palestine. Its what proto-Israel did when Arab militias were murdering them in Riots prior to its independance.

The focus for the last sixty years have been on blowing up the parts of Palestine still occupied by Palestinians. Those riots were a result of Zionist taking land by force. Atrocities were committed by both sides. The difference is the murdering of Arabs never stopped.

You mean the riots when the ottomans ran the place and Jews were not even allowed to repair their synogogues? Taking land by force? when they weren't even allowed to own arms?

See, Arab history talks of many pogroms were Arab immigrants took jewish lands.


Whine less about how hard up you are (which isn't that bad in the grande scheme) and just make things better.