Cut Israel Off

[iARTthere4iam]

Regarding Israel's generous peace offers:

Despite pro-Israeli propaganda claiming Palestinians have turned down generous peace offers from Israel, that's not how Palestinians see it. The above agreements would have traded Palestinian claims to arable land and aquifiers for toxic waste dumps and desert, given the Israeli military complete control the Palestinian economy, divided Palestine into a series of Buntustans and left millions of non-citizens stranded in refugee camps without hope for a better future.



Israel has never offered Palestinians a fair agreement. What Israel has offered are "take it or leave it" proposals which would force Palestinians to accept the status quo or face more war. Israel never stopped destroying Palestinian homes, taking their land and property since the beginning. Israel has done this during periods of relative calm and during periods of relative conflict. The amount Israel has now taken and destroyed makes a viable Palestinian state impossible.

The only possible solution which addresses the basic injustice and oppression suffered by Israel's non-citizens and ethnic cleansing victims is to grant these people full Israeli citizenship and let democracy determine Israel's future. A one state solution.

This is very interesting. Please explain further. Would this apply to the residents of Gaza and the West Bank? Would it include all the refugees in surrounding nations refugee camps? What about the Jews and the Jewish character of Israel?

Is this the EAO middle east peace plan otherwise known as the "One state solution"?

Do I have this right? By allowing Palestinians to be Israelis (and thus overwhelming the Jewishness of Israel) the citizens of this new Israel (if it can be called that ... better yet lets call it Palestine) can get on with the work of turning this blight on the middle east back to normal (read muslim) and everything will be fine (unless you are Jewish). All's well that ends well. And we can get on with forgetting that the Jews once had their own nation.

Why is this better than the two state solution?

 

[earth_as_one]

Yes I am suggesting ending Zionism and its religious based entitlement through democracy. Given a choice between a Jewish state or peace in the middle east, I'd rather have peace. I'm sure the White South Africans felt the same way about ending apartheid and giving non-white people equal rights. Its not a new idea:

The Association for One Democratic State in Palestine/Israel
Vision, Goals and Principles

We are Palestinians, Israelis and their allies, who want a peaceful end to the state of war and oppression in Palestine/Israel through a political and social transformation guided by the principles of equality, justice, self-determination, solidarity and respect for all religions and cultures. We envision a country that is home for all its people, including those now in exile, regardless of race, ethnicity, gender, class, religion or belief...

http://www.odspi.org/en/home/about/vision/

Even Israel's leaders are coming to this realization:

Israel risks apartheid-like struggle if two-state solution fails, says Olmert

[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]· Jewish state is finished without deal, warns PM[/FONT]
[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]· Effort to renew public backing for peace talks[/FONT]

[FONT=Geneva,Arial,sans-serif]Rory McCarthy in Jerusalem[/FONT]
[FONT=Geneva,Arial,sans-serif]Friday November 30, 2007[/FONT]

The Guardian
Israel's prime minister issued a rare warning yesterday that his nation risked being compared to apartheid-era South Africa if it failed to agree an independent state for the Palestinians. In an interview with the Israeli newspaper Ha'aretz, Ehud Olmert said Israel was "finished" if it forced the Palestinians into a struggle for equal rights...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,,2219485,00.html

Look at a recent map of Palestine. The areas actually occupied by Palestinians consist of a series of walled in concentration camps. Israeli greed to take everything of value has left nothing of value for the Palestinians. As a result, a two state solution is no longer vialble given the "facts on the ground".

Israel being a democratic state where everyone is treated equally is more likely to lead to freedom and justice than the current state where rights are based on where you live and which religion you follow.

 

[iARTthere4iam]

So those that are concerned for the security of Israel are correct. "Peace in the middle east" requires that Israel cease to exist. A Jewish nation is incompatable with peace? How sad.

 

[earth_as_one]

Z, post some links to support your claims.

From what I know about this conflict, Palestine was a relatively peaceful corner of the world before Zionism (pre-1900). Jews, Christians and Muslims lived together more or less peacefully for centuries until heavily armed foreigners showed up claiming they were God's chosen people and had a God given right to this land. (Too bad for the hundreds of thousands of people living in this land without people)

Judge a tree by the fruit it bears. Zionism has only resulted in war and ethnic cleansing. Zionism hasn't borne a single year of peace.

A movement which attempts to concentrate all the world's Jews into a tiny area which has been ethnically cleansed of non-Jews while pissing off more than a billion people nearby has got to have a bad ending.

 

[iARTthere4iam]

The areas actually occupied by Palestinians consist of a series of walled in concentration camps. Israeli greed to take everything of value

You are correct that the areas now occupied by the palestinians is a pathetic group of walled in and controlled areas. I am concerned by this also (see above peace iARTthere4iam peace plan).

As to your statement that Israel has taken everything of value, you are encouraged to study the history of the region. Israel has returned the Sinai twice. and has removed it's settlements from Gaza. All is not lost. A realistic approach to peace is possible. Do not despair.

 

[earth_as_one]

So those that are concerned for the security of Israel are correct. "Peace in the middle east" requires that Israel cease to exist. A Jewish nation is incompatable with peace? How sad.

Are "those that are concerned for the security of Israel" ever demonstrated concern about anyone else's security?

Are these concerned people the same as those who described Israel's brutal 2006 assault of Lebanon as a "measured response"? I guess I don't count myself a member of that group. I am concerned about everyone's security, including Israelis.

"Peace in the middle east" probably requires that the Zionist state of Israel cease to exist.

That statement is not that different than observing that equality in south Africa required that the Apartheid state of South Africa cease to exist. South African still exists today, but the Apartheid state of South Africa is gone.

I can't see any way how a group of people who believe they have a God given right to ethnically cleanse Palestine of Palestinians could live peacefully with their neighbors. Perhaps you can explain this to me from the viewpoint of someone ethnically cleansed from their home in Palestine by zionists and has been living in a refugee camp for 60 years.

What I am proposing is a democratic and secular Israel where everyone enjoys the same rights regardless of religion or where they live in Israel.

Judaism isn't the problem. Zionism and the concept of religious based entitlement is the problem. In 60 years since the Zionist state of Israel's creation, this area has seen nothing but war. Ending Zionism would be a huge step toward peace. Granting everyone living in areas controlled by Israel the same rights would be another huge step toward peace. So would a truth and reconciliation commission.

Peace comes from freedom and justice, not oppression and injustice.

The Zionist State of Israel, like the Apartheid state of South Africa is a sad statement about man's inhumanity to man. No I am not in favor of Israel's destruction. I am in favor of Israel's evolution for the benefit of all who live under Israeli control as well as Israel's longterm survival.

Tutu condemns Israeli 'apartheid'

Tutu said 'oppression' would not bring security



http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/1957644.stm

 

[Zzarchov]

Z, post some links to support your claims.

From what I know about this conflict, Palestine was a relatively peaceful corner of the world before Zionism (pre-1900). Jews, Christians and Muslims lived together more or less peacefully for centuries until heavily armed foreigners showed up claiming they were God's chosen people and had a God given right to this land. (Too bad for the hundreds of thousands of people living in this land without people)

Judge a tree by the fruit it bears. Zionism has only resulted in war and ethnic cleansing. Zionism hasn't borne a single year of peace.

A movement which attempts to concentrate all the world's Jews into a tiny area which has been ethnically cleansed of non-Jews while pissing off more than a billion people nearby has got to have a bad ending.

Yes, it was more or less peaceful for the Muslim immigrants who overwhelmed the Jewish and Christian Majority there before them (as had happened to the coptics in Egypt).

For the Jewish majority turned minority, it was peaceful in that there were no wars, much in the same way by historical standards, Israel and Palestine is technically still peaceful (when looking at casualties as a percent of the population).

But it was not peaceful in the sense there were constant riots and pogroms against jews (as there were elsewhere in the empire, as well as in the neighbouring Russian empire).

So it was peaceful in the same way Aparathied was peaceful.

 

[earth_as_one]

You are correct that the areas now occupied by the palestinians is a pathetic group of walled in and controlled areas. I am concerned by this also (see above peace iARTthere4iam peace plan).

As to your statement that Israel has taken everything of value, you are encouraged to study the history of the region. Israel has returned the Sinai twice. and has removed it's settlements from Gaza. All is not lost. A realistic approach to peace is possible. Do not despair.

What is left of Palestine for Palestinians? Gaza is the world's largest prison camp. The West Bank is a series of prison camps. I agree all is not lost. Its time for people without citizenship born in areas controlled by Israel to demand full Israeli citizenship.

 

[earth_as_one]

Yes, it was more or less peaceful for the Muslim immigrants who overwhelmed the Jewish and Christian Majority there before them (as had happened to the coptics in Egypt).

For the Jewish majority turned minority, it was peaceful in that there were no wars, much in the same way by historical standards, Israel and Palestine is technically still peaceful (when looking at casualties as a percent of the population).

But it was not peaceful in the sense there were constant riots and pogroms against jews (as there were elsewhere in the empire, as well as in the neighbouring Russian empire).

So it was peaceful in the same way Aparathied was peaceful.

If children of Palestinian refugees have no rights to Palestine after one generation as you have claimed previously, then how can other people claiming to be children of refugees have full rights after a hundred generations?

How much proof do any of these people have that they actually descend from the original Jewish refugees, rather than people who converted to Judaism later on? How does one classify who is Jewish and who isn't? What if you have mixed ancestory? Sounds very apartheidishy...

Minorities in the Ottoman empire were protected and allowed religious freedom as long as they paid their taxes. Typically, Jews were treated better than Christians (crusades) and other minorities and often occupied positions of trust and authority. The Ottoman empire was more enlightened and liberal than other empires of their time.

When Jews overran this area, I would imagine some people already living there converted to Judaism. When Muslims overwhelmed the same area, some Jews converted to Islam. Now the area has been overrun by foreigners once again. But this time the foreigners are removing the people who already live there even though many of them can trace their ancestry back to biblical times or further and share common ancestors.

By the way, tell the people who suffered under Apartheid, that it was peaceful. Just like the Zionist State of Israel, they also suffered abduction, torture and murder.

If you want to know peaceful, come to Canada. Our government does not abduct, torture or murder people and all Canadians have equal rights. Even illegal immigrants have rights in Canada.

 

[Zzarchov]

I don't claim they have full rights. I just claim that if you are trying to bring historical actions into the mix as justification to slather the sins of the father as the duty of the current generation, it has to work both ways.

Jews were not treated better than Muslims during the crusades (usually they were slaughtered).

I also don't think ancestry matters, whether or not current Jews have ancestry matters not. Native residents brought in foreigners to help fight on their behalf. The very same thing Muslim's did centuries earlier with Arab and even some Persian foreign fighters who settled in what is now Palestine.

And in the long run, how the land came to be is irrelevant, what matters is how it is now. If we start divying up land that happened in times past, where do we draw the line?

Palestine will have to accept a poor bargain because it has almost nothing to bring to the table.

As for equal rights:

All Israelis have equal rights to (to the same standard all Canadians do). Arab and Muslim Israelis are not treated as second class anymore than a Persian Canadian Muslim.

And Illegal immigrants in Canada do not have full rights, in many democracies they have fewer rights (Australia, Japan, etc)

Israel just isn't that bad, its not on the top 10, and nothing you've said has really changed that.

 

[lone wolf]

Israel learned a very long time ago that it's the squeaky wheel who gets the most grease and they play up to it well. A Zionist Israel is doomed to fail whereas as Jewish Israel has as much right to exist on that patchwork called the Middle East as anyone. Traditionally, they're all nomads.

Woof!

 

[MikeyDB]

Terrific....let them be nomads again and maybe they'll find their way back out of the wilderness....

Let the people of Israel grow profit and exist on the basis of their own imagination and productivity. Let them produce and manufacture what they choose to grow and manufacture, but let them do it on their own. Not as a surrogate (puppet manipulator) of the rest of the world.

 

[Dixie Cup]

Are you suggesting that the Palestinians should emulate the Isrealis? How can they do that without a huge armed force? How can they do that without spys in every nation on earth? How can they do that without state sanctioned death squads, without organized starvation of a captive slave population, without prisons filled with political prisoners, free high tech weaponry, strangleholds on media and coporations blackmail murder and theft. What you suggest is impossible nobodys going to let them emulate Isreal.

Where the hell did this come from?

How does becoming more responsible for oneself have anything to do with the military. I wasn't referring to ANYTHING military at all. I was/am referring to creating a society whereby everyone works together, in peace, for the betterment of the community; living and working to create businesses, trade etc. Isreal has created a prosperous society unlike the Arabs. Obviously you have a bias and that's fine. But I was not referring to anything political and/or military at all. Just "day to day" living.

I would like the Arabs to be successful in creating countries where their people can thrive and prosper and where the citizens can have..... wait for it...peace. That's all I meant by that remark.

 

[iARTthere4iam]

Terrific....let them be nomads again and maybe they'll find their way back out of the wilderness....

Let the people of Israel grow profit and exist on the basis of their own imagination and productivity.

Hmm. I think they are doing that. DNA computers, desalination technology, drip irrigation, emergency medical procedures flow from Israel's fertile imagination. These industies benefit Israelis and all of humanity.

Let them produce and manufacture what they choose to grow and manufacture, but let them do it on their own. Not as a surrogate (puppet manipulator) of the rest of the world.

How is Israel a "surrogate" or "puppet manupulator", and what do these words mean in this context?

 

[iARTthere4iam]

Israel is very heavily into murdering ten Palestinians for every Israeli killed, flattening entire villages if one house might be tainted (Hmm... Same rhetoric of a Hitler speech) and poking and prodding to retaliation so someone else can violate the ceasefire. I still say move Israel to Arizona.

Woof!

Israelis are killed, but Palestinians are murdered. Your fairness is impressive.

Umm? Hmm? Sorry if I am not following the comparison to Hitler. Hitler gobbled up country after country across Europe and North Africa, very nearly had Britain and caused massive death in Russia with a very clearly spelled out policy of genocide, and conquest. Israel has not conquered one sovereign nation. The Sinai was captured twice from Egypt and returned twice to Egypt in exchange for a peace agreement. The Golan Heights were used as an artillery platform to shell farm fields, Gaza has been cleared of Israeli settlers.

What do you mean "flattening entire villages if one house might be tainted"? Tainted how? Example(s) please.

Israel's policy of asymetrical response to attack is correct. How can it be otherwise. Israel is a nation for whom retreat of any kind is impossible. There is nowhere to retreat to.

I certainly do not support Israel's policy of occupation in the West Bank and think it should be ended immediately. Your solution is to give the region to the Arabs, will you next propose that Lebanon be cleared of Christians so that Greater Syria can finally be achieved?

 

[earth_as_one]

Z,

Illegal immigrants have fewer rights than Canadian citizens. Mainly they can't serve in the military, vote or work. But they are entitled to welfare and healthcare as well as every right defined in Canada's Charter of Human Rights.

Our first Nations people (who are the equivalent of the people living in Palestine before it was colonized by foreigners), have the same rights as other Canadians and special rights to the land and its resources not afforded to other Canadians.

Technically Israel is really "Israel and the Occupied Territories". One state, not two. If it were two states, then two states would be recognized by the UN.

Hundreds of thousands of Israeli citizens live in the West Bank and until recently Gaza (evacuated when their situation in Gaza became undefendable). Israel controls the borders, collects taxes, controls electricity, water, sewage, trade, borders... Effectively everything which is normally controlled and regulated by a sovereign state's government. Democratically elected Hamas effectively has no authority and Fatah (Abbas) has no mandate. Legally and effectively, the Israeli government is the only responsible government for everyone in Israel and the Occupied Territories.

You cannot ignore the situation of millions of Israel's non-citizens. Amnesty International doesn't:

ISRAEL AND THE OCCUPIED TERRITORIES
(notice one report for one state!)

STATE OF ISRAEL
Head of state: Moshe Katzav
Head of government: Ehud Olmert (replaced Ariel Sharon in April)
Death penalty: abolitionist for ordinary crimes
International Criminal Court: signed but declared intention not to ratify

Increased violence between Israelis and Palestinians resulted in a threefold increase in killings of Palestinians by Israeli forces. The number of Israelis killed by Palestinian armed groups diminished by half. More than 650 Palestinians, including some 120 children, and 27 Israelis were killed. Israeli forces carried out air and artillery bombardments in the Gaza Strip, and Israel continued to expand illegal settlements and to build a 700-km fence/wall on Palestinian land in the Occupied Territories. Military blockades and increased restrictions imposed by Israel on the movement of Palestinians and the confiscation by Israel of Palestinian customs duties caused a significant deterioration in living conditions for Palestinian inhabitants in the Occupied Territories, with poverty, food aid dependency, health problems and unemployment reaching crisis levels. Israeli soldiers and settlers committed serious human rights abuses, including unlawful killings, against Palestinians, mostly with impunity. Thousands of Palestinians were arrested by Israeli forces throughout the Occupied Territories on suspicion of security offences and hundreds were held in administrative detention. Israeli conscientious objectors continued to be imprisoned for refusing to serve in the army. In a 34-day war against Hizbullah in Lebanon in July-August, Israeli forces committed serious violations of international humanitarian law, including war crimes. Israeli bombardments killed nearly 1,200 people, and destroyed or damaged tens of thousands of homes and other civilian infrastructure. Israeli forces also littered south Lebanon with around a million unexploded cluster bombs which continued to kill and maim civilians after the conflict...

...Israeli forces carried out frequent air and artillery bombardments against the Gaza Strip, often into densely populated refugee camps and residential areas. Some 650 Palestinians, half of them unarmed civilians and including some 120 children, were killed by Israeli forces. This toll was a threefold increase compared with 2005...

...On 9 June, seven members of the Ghalia family - five children and their parents - were killed and some 30 other civilians were injured when Israeli forces fired several artillery shells at a beach in the north of the Gaza Strip. The beach was crowded with Palestinian families enjoying the first weekend of the school holidays...

...In the early morning of 8 November, 18 members of the Athamna family were killed and dozens of other civilians were injured when a volley of artillery shells struck a densely populated neighbourhood of Beit Hanoun, in the north of the Gaza Strip. The victims, eight of them children, were killed in their sleep or while fleeing the shelling, which lasted for around 30 minutes and during which some 12 shells landed in the area...

...Eight-year-old Akaber 'Abd al-Rahman 'Ezzat Zayed was shot dead by Israeli special forces who opened fire on the car in which she was travelling to hospital with her uncle, who was seriously injured in the attack. The incident took place on 17 March...

...Israeli forces continued to assassinate wanted Palestinians, killing and wounding bystanders in the process...

...Nine members of the Abu Salmiya family were killed when an Israeli F16 fighter jet bombed their home at 2.30am on 12 July. According to the Israeli army, a senior leader of Hamas' armed wing was in the house at the time of the strike but survived. However, the strike wiped out an entire family: the owner of the house, Nabil Abu Salmiya, a Hamas political leader and university lecturer; his wife Salwa; and seven of their children all aged under 18. Dozens of neighbours were also injured and several other houses were damaged in the strike...

...impunity remained widespread for Israeli soldiers and settlers responsible for unlawful killings, ill-treatment and other abuses of human rights of Palestinians and attacks against their property. Investigations and prosecutions relating to such abuses were rare and usually only occurred when the abuses were exposed by human rights organizations and the media. By contrast, the Israeli authorities took a range of measures against Palestinians suspected of direct or indirect involvement in attacks against Israelis, including measures such as assassinations, physical abuse and collective punishment...

...Thousands of Palestinians, including scores of children, were detained by Israeli forces. Many were arrested during Israeli army operations in the Gaza Strip. The majority of those arrested were released uncharged, but hundreds were accused of security offences. Those detained included dozens of Hamas government ministers and parliamentarians, who were arrested after Palestinian gunmen captured an Israeli soldier in June, apparently to exert pressure for the soldier's release...

...Trials of Palestinians before military courts often did not meet international fair trial standards, with allegations of torture and other ill-treatment of detainees inadequately investigated. Hundreds of Palestinians were held in administrative detention without charge or trial; more than 700 were being held at the end of the year. Family visits to some 10,000 Palestinian prisoners were severely restricted as many of their relatives were denied visiting permits...

...Israel continued to expand illegal Israeli settlements and stepped up construction of a 700-km fence/wall, 80 per cent of which runs inside the occupied West Bank, including in and around East Jerusalem. Large areas of Palestinian land were seized and utilized for this purpose...

...The damaging impact of the prolonged blockades and movement restrictions was compounded by the Israeli authorities' confiscation of tax duties due to the PA - some US$50 million a month, equivalent to half of the PA's administration budget. As a result, humanitarian conditions in the Occupied Territories deteriorated to an unprecedented level, marked by a rise in extreme poverty, food aid dependency, high unemployment, malnutrition and other health problems among the Palestinian population...

...The destruction of Palestinian infrastructure by Israeli forces caused long-term damage and additional humanitarian challenges. In June the Israeli bombardment of the Gaza Strip's only power plant, which supplied electricity to half of the area's inhabitants, as well as Israel's destruction of bridges, roads, and water and sewage networks, caused the population to be without electricity for most of the day throughout the hottest months of the year and interfered with water supplies...

http://thereport.amnesty.org/eng/Re...th-Africa/Israel-and-the-Occupied-Territories

South Africa's Apartheid regime never treated their inferiors this poorly.

International Law defines the responsibilities of the occupying state as follows:

What are the most important principles governing occupation?

The duties of the occupying power are spelled out primarily in the 1907 Hague Regulations (arts 42-56) and the Fourth Geneva Convention (GC IV, art. 27-34 and 47-78), as well as in certain provisions of Additional Protocol I and customary international humanitarian law.

Agreements concluded between the occupying power and the local authorities cannot deprive the population of occupied territory of the protection afforded by international humanitarian law (GC IV, art. 47) and protected persons themselves can in no circumstances renounce their rights (GC IV, art. 8).

The main rules of the law applicable in case of occupation state that:

-The occupant does not acquire sovereignty over the territory.

-Occupation is only a temporary situation and the rights of the occupant are limited to the extent of that period.

-The occupying power must respect the laws in force in the occupied territory, unless they constitute a threat to its security or an obstacle to the application of the international law of occupation.

-The occupying power must take measures to restore and ensure, as far as possible, public order and safety.

-To the fullest extent of the means available to it, the occupying power must ensure sufficient hygiene and public health standards, as well as the provision of food and medical care to the population under occupation.

-The population in occupied territory cannot be forced to enlist in the occupier's armed forces.

-Collective or individual forcible transfers of population from and within the occupied territory are prohibited.

-Transfers of the civilian population of the occupying power into the occupied territory, regardless whether forcible or voluntary, are prohibited.

-Collective punishment is prohibited.

-The taking of hostages is prohibited.

-Reprisals against protected persons or their property are prohibited.

-The confiscation of private property by the occupant is prohibited.

-The destruction or seizure of enemy property is prohibited, unless absolutely required by military necessity during the conduct of hostilities.

-Cultural property must be respected.

-People accused of criminal offences shall be provided with proceedings respecting internationally recognized judicial guarantees (for example, they must be informed of the reason for their arrest, charged with a specific offence and given a fair trial as quickly as possible).

-Personnel of the International Red Cross/Red Crescent Movement must be allowed to carry out their humanitarian activities. The ICRC, in particular, must be given access to all protected persons, wherever they are, whether or not they are deprived of their liberty.

http://www.icrc.org/web/eng/siteeng0.nsf/html/634KFC

I can point out numerous examples of where Israel has violated almost every one of the above principles.

Given Israel's blatant disregard of International law and violations of fundamental human rights, Israel's non-citizens have a right to resist their rulers.

 

[lone wolf]

Israelis are killed, but Palestinians are murdered. Your fairness is impressive.
So is a ten-to-one ratio. Palestinians are confronted by swarms of heavily-armed soldiers and shouted conflicting orders. They are beaten - and too often shot - immediately for non compliance. Agreed, one Israeli killed is a bad thing. Does that justify the scope of retaliation? Overkill IS murder.

Umm? Hmm? Sorry if I am not following the comparison to Hitler. Berlin bombing speech
Hitler gobbled up country after country across Europe and North Africa, very nearly had Britain and caused massive death in Russia with a very clearly spelled out policy of genocide, and conquest.

Since you've taken us here, what is the difference between Palestinians in an Israeli concentration camp and Jews in a German one? What is the difference between Israeli arrogance and German arrogance? What is the difference between a master race and a chosen people?

Israel has not conquered one sovereign nation. 1947 UN Resolution 181 Partition Plan re: Palestine The Sinai was captured twice from Egypt and returned twice to Egypt in exchange for a peace agreement. The Golan Heights were used as an artillery platform to shell farm fields, Do you know where Israel Aircraft Industries are? Farm fields were not likely the target. We DO know about propagandic purpose. Gaza has been cleared of Israeli settlers.

What do you mean "flattening entire villages if one house might be tainted"? Tainted how? Example(s) please.

Tainted by harbouring a "terrorist" (or on a piece of land an Israeli settler wants)
Examples? Watch the TV news if you can't afford to go to Israel.

Israel's policy of asymetrical response to attack is correct. How can it be otherwise. Israel is a nation for whom retreat of any kind is impossible. There is nowhere to retreat to.

Then perhaps it might be a good idea to get along with the neighbours instead of setting up situations to annoy them.

I certainly do not support Israel's policy of occupation in the West Bank and think it should be ended immediately. Your solution is to give the region to the Arabs, will you next propose that Lebanon be cleared of Christians so that Greater Syria can finally be achieved?

My solution is to get the trouble makers out of there. Jewish people existed peacefully with their Arab neighbours for more than a thousand years in the Middle East before Zionist Israel took root.

Woof!

 

[iARTthere4iam]

My solution is to get the trouble makers out of there. Jewish people existed peacefully with their Arab neighbours for more than a thousand years in the Middle East before Zionist Israel took root.

Woof!

I have clearly spelled out my plan on this thread. Israel should pull out of the West Bank and Gaza and immediately and declare the lands separate from Israel. It would then be up to the Palestinians to do what they will with the chance.

It is risky, and unlikely and optomistic, I know.

What is your plan? Spell it out. Complaining is not a plan. By what mechanism would Israel cease to exist as a Jewish homeland? Who would govern? Where would the Jews go?

 

[lone wolf]

I have clearly spelled out my plan on this thread. Israel should pull out of the West Bank and Gaza and immediately and declare the lands separate from Israel. It would then be up to the Palestinians to do what they will with the chance.

It is risky, and unlikely and optomistic, I know.

What is your plan? Spell it out. Complaining is not a plan. By what mechanism would Israel cease to exist as a Jewish homeland? Who would govern? Where would the Jews go?

I agree with your idea - almost to Resolution 181 boundaries. Add to that: All foreign support should be withdrawn - over an appropriate period of time.

Complain? What right have I to do that? I'm a quarter world and half a lifetime removed from the mess. Israel is a Jewish homeland and that is as it should be. It was a Jewish homeland a thousand years before displaced European Jewry arrived. With them, came the bitterness. Unfortunately - and it's impossible to avoid offending somebody here - Zionism and forgiveness of the past are complete opposites. They are the "poor me" who make Israel a target for rage. They are the ones who SHOULD NOT be governing an Israel at peace.

Woof!

 

[iARTthere4iam]

I agree with your idea - almost to Resolution 181 boundaries. Add to that: All foreign support should be withdrawn - over an appropriate period of time.

Complain? What right have I to do that? I'm a quarter world and half a lifetime removed from the mess. Israel is a Jewish homeland and that is as it should be. It was a Jewish homeland a thousand years before displaced European Jewry arrived. With them, came the bitterness. Unfortunately - and it's impossible to avoid offending somebody here - Zionism and forgiveness of the past are complete opposites. They are the "poor me" who make Israel a target for rage. They are the ones who SHOULD NOT be governing an Israel at peace.

Woof!

What is the rationale for withdrawl of foreign support? What would be the benefit? Isn't it a choice of the foreigners wishing to support Israel?

It is now a homeland for Jews. A place where Jews can be what they are and have to subjugate themselves to no one. The arabs have many lands. The muslims have many lands. Secularists have their lands, as do the hindus and others. Why can't there be a land for the Jews?

I'm tired, good night.