The neighbors were Nomads? The five armies of Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon and Iraq invaded Israel within hours of the UN voting for the creation of Israel. Nomads don't have tanks as far as I know.
Please correct me if I'm wrong.
New Middle East
- Thread starter darkbeaver
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The neighbors were Nomads? The five armies of Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon and Iraq invaded Israel within hours of the UN voting for the creation of Israel. Nomads don't have tanks as far as I know.
Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Apparently they didn't have veto. Their objections were known. Tanks were a dime a dozen. All you need is a square mile of desert to catch a few ... and there had been that little fur-ball a couple of years before. Would you stand idly by if some organization said Mexico could have Texas?
Woof!
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This wasn't about another country swallowing up their neighbor, this was about a people claiming the land they were already on, their own. And they went the international way to get it done. No bombs, no bullets, no fancy invasions. The Arabs were all parties to the vote, they lost, they just had to suck it up. But they didn't, and here we are.
There was plenty of land partitioned back then for the Palestinians, they just wanted the Jews OUT.
Nobody even came to the defense of Israel back then except for the Soviet Union via Checkoslovakia. If it weren't for them, Israel would have been but a memory.
This was about UN setting up a homeland for people nobody would accept. You are correct in the fact there were already Jewish people there. They lived as peacefully as the desert allows with the other people who were already there. It goes a lot farther back than Israel. It goes back farther than the Ottoman Empire, or the Persian Empire. More recently, in that vacuum after WW1, the Arab world had a relatively free hand under British rule. Suddenly, following WW2, there's a No Trespassing sign at the beach and more strangers giving orders.
Explain then why Israel isn't in the Russian sphere of influence?
Yeah, it's a bit simplistic. "Israel" is never going to be sorted out. It's an experiment gone very wrong.
Woof!
Explain then why Israel isn't in the Russian sphere of influence?
Yeah, it's a bit simplistic. "Israel" is never going to be sorted out. It's an experiment gone very wrong.
Woof!
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The furthest back I am going is WWII, you have to draw a line somewhere, and that somewhere for me is the International Community under the auspices of the UN. The UN decided to give the land to the Israelis. Whether it was out of guilt for the holocaust because everyone stood back scratching their balls when Hitler began his "Final Solution" or they just plain sorry for them. The fact remains the UN voted and granted it.
Strangers or not, this is what transpired. Funny how everyone loves to invoke UN resolutions (especially the ones Israel breaks) today, but outright refuses to acknowledge the resolution that started it all, and of course, blames the Israelis for it.
Sorry I didn't write Israeli policy, perhaps they just didn't want to be a communist state?
What went wrong is the Arabs not acknowledging UN Resolution 181 and started the sporadic attacks, until the following year when Israel declared independence and they decided to invade.
Any point where Israel claims it wasn't the aggressor.
I don't deny Israel's right to exist. I object to the "Chosen People" arrogance with which she imposed herself upon a region rich in its own traditions and history.
Woof!
I don't deny Israel's right to exist. I object to the "Chosen People" arrogance with which she imposed herself upon a region rich in its own traditions and history.
Woof!
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Israel did not start the agression though, I believe we've covered that.
The "Chosen People" arrogance is irrelevant to the politics and UN resoultion 181. You don't have to like the Jews, but they certainly were granted land by the international community as were the Palestinians. Just look at a map of 1947 where the Jewish and Palestinian settlements were and what the UN gave them.
It was always about throwing the Jews into the sea by the Arabs. It still is.
Well said.
However, it is the british( a zionist in the governement) who decides to give the jews land in israel, which was decide by the balfour declaration in 1917, after world war 1.
The problem with israel, is it was made by crazy-religious-zionist-zealots, who think they are the elite chosen by god, and the most trouble thing with this, is they really believe it.
You can barbles as you wish, and say the arab wants to throw the jews into the sea, however the problem is it will never happen, no arab nattion has enough power to do what you claim, on the other hand it is israel who are driving the arabs into the sea, just look what happened to palestine in the last 50 years, just look what israel has done to lebanon in the last 40 years, that is facts, not fairy tail.
However i know you prefer to believe that people who throw rocks at tanks, sorrounded by 20 feet wall, blowthemselves with homemade bombs, could drive one of most dangerous army in the world into the sea.
Well i think you guys are ready for an alien invasion, and i can bet you will swallow it, just like anything tthey tell you on arabs.
Agreed, they may not have started it. We'll never really know. Resolution 181 sowed the seeds when permanent settlements were established on someone else's range - much like cattle ranging on buffalo grazing lands upset people indigenous to North America. Though "Chosen People" arrogance had little to do with UN's choice of location, it certainly did in how Israel became the disrespectful new kid on the block. Like it or not, rights were trampled upon when local voices were ignored by unconscionable force.
Where have I said anywhere that I don't like the Jews? The same misinterpretation cropped up in my last war of words in here. Is for us or against us an anthem among folks who can't see beyond their own noses to another side to a story? For the record, I have grown quite indifferent to the whole mess over there. I still believe BOTH sides should be brought to the table and locked into the room - without outside interference - until they can come to a resolution that works. If someone gets wet, so be it.
Woof!
Edit: http://www.passia.org/palestine_facts/MAPS/1947-un-partition-plan-reso.html
It's NOT always the other guy....
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Mostly likely both sides started it.
During the 1930's and 40's, European Jews were desperate refugees. Our governments were relatively anti-Semitic and anti-Arab. Allowing hundreds of thousands of refugees to flee to Palestine was a convenient not in my backyard solution.
Unfortunately for the locals, many immigrants had Zionist beliefs.
"A land without people for a people without land".
"God's chosen people returning to their ancestral homelands"
Those ideas don't leave much space for the millions of people already living in the "land without people" when the immigrants showed up.
Immigrants had an advantage in weapons, training, leadership, unity.The locals only had advantage in numbers.
The immigrants wanted a country and had friends in high places... The locals had been ruled for centuries by foreigners and few powerful friends.
What started out as theft and murder became war. Rape and torture grew into war crimes and crimes against humanity. By the 1940's the immigrants had the upper hand. An invasion by neighboring countries in 1948 with their own agendas for the area and its people didn't help the locals.
Since then the immigrants have maintained the upper hand and the region has been stuck in a continuous cycle of violence.
...the immigrants take land, the war heats up, the immigrants take more land, the war cools down, the immigrants legitimize their presence, the immigrants take more land, the war heats up, the immigrants take more land, the war cools down, the immigrants legitimize what they've taken, the immigrants take more land, the war heats up, the immigrants take more land, the war cools down, the immigrants legitimize what they've taken, the immigrants take more land, the war heats up, the immigrants take more land, the war cools down, the immigants legitimize what they've taken, they take more land, the war heats up, the immigrants take more land, the war heats up, the immigrants take more land, the war heats up, the immigrants take more land...
Its been going on for more than 60 years now.
Currently the cycle is stuck in the taking more land and war heating up phase. Immigrants have grown impatient and greedy. The locals refuse to play the game.
Trends/Facts leading to World War:
1) Israel has a low growth rate.
2) Each year, Israel becomes more dependant on the US for economic and military support. Currently its about $4-6B annually.
3) The US mired in a war it can't win and can't extract itself
4) A sinking US economy.
5) Arabs and Muslims are aware of what is going on. (al-jazeera)
6) Arabs and Muslims are connected in real time. (internet)
7) More than a billion Arabs and Muslims increasing in wealth, power and numbers.
8 ) Peak oil
9) China, India, and other nations gaining more power and influence at the UN
10) Growing anger toward pro-American middle east autocracies leading to Islamic Fundamentalism. (Iran first, sooner or later Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and Egypt.)
11) Iran's technological modernization.
12) Growing ineffectiveness of Israel's conventional weapons
13) Growing effectiveness of militant group weaponry.
14) Israel's stockpiles of WMDs. (Nukes and who knows what else???)
The convergence of these trends/facts appear to lead to a very unpleasant future for both sides of this conflict.
During the 1930's and 40's, European Jews were desperate refugees. Our governments were relatively anti-Semitic and anti-Arab. Allowing hundreds of thousands of refugees to flee to Palestine was a convenient not in my backyard solution.
Unfortunately for the locals, many immigrants had Zionist beliefs.
"A land without people for a people without land".
"God's chosen people returning to their ancestral homelands"
Those ideas don't leave much space for the millions of people already living in the "land without people" when the immigrants showed up.
Immigrants had an advantage in weapons, training, leadership, unity.The locals only had advantage in numbers.
The immigrants wanted a country and had friends in high places... The locals had been ruled for centuries by foreigners and few powerful friends.
What started out as theft and murder became war. Rape and torture grew into war crimes and crimes against humanity. By the 1940's the immigrants had the upper hand. An invasion by neighboring countries in 1948 with their own agendas for the area and its people didn't help the locals.
Since then the immigrants have maintained the upper hand and the region has been stuck in a continuous cycle of violence.
...the immigrants take land, the war heats up, the immigrants take more land, the war cools down, the immigrants legitimize their presence, the immigrants take more land, the war heats up, the immigrants take more land, the war cools down, the immigrants legitimize what they've taken, the immigrants take more land, the war heats up, the immigrants take more land, the war cools down, the immigrants legitimize what they've taken, the immigrants take more land, the war heats up, the immigrants take more land, the war cools down, the immigants legitimize what they've taken, they take more land, the war heats up, the immigrants take more land, the war heats up, the immigrants take more land, the war heats up, the immigrants take more land...
Its been going on for more than 60 years now.
Currently the cycle is stuck in the taking more land and war heating up phase. Immigrants have grown impatient and greedy. The locals refuse to play the game.
Trends/Facts leading to World War:
1) Israel has a low growth rate.
2) Each year, Israel becomes more dependant on the US for economic and military support. Currently its about $4-6B annually.
3) The US mired in a war it can't win and can't extract itself
4) A sinking US economy.
5) Arabs and Muslims are aware of what is going on. (al-jazeera)
6) Arabs and Muslims are connected in real time. (internet)
7) More than a billion Arabs and Muslims increasing in wealth, power and numbers.
8 ) Peak oil
9) China, India, and other nations gaining more power and influence at the UN
10) Growing anger toward pro-American middle east autocracies leading to Islamic Fundamentalism. (Iran first, sooner or later Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and Egypt.)
11) Iran's technological modernization.
12) Growing ineffectiveness of Israel's conventional weapons
13) Growing effectiveness of militant group weaponry.
14) Israel's stockpiles of WMDs. (Nukes and who knows what else???)
The convergence of these trends/facts appear to lead to a very unpleasant future for both sides of this conflict.
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Of course we know, the Arab armies invaded Israel, not the other way around. I mean it really is a historical fact. Israel had no defense whatsoever, nothing. They only survived thanks to the Soviets.
I dunno where you said you don't like the Jews, I may have misinterpreted what you wrote, apologies if that's the case.
I was indifferent myself, until I realized boneheads like Logic 7 started blaming Israel for everything that goes on down there. then I started doing some heavy historical research (nope, not on the internet, I actually picked history books) and found out the Arabs started the aggression, and when they lost wars, they started with misinformation.
It is true Israel has their own fare share of bull**** and aggression. But they have never broken peace treaties they signed with Egypt and Jordan. Plus they gave back all the lands they won during the wars with Egypt and Israel. That accounts for something.
That happened once (sort of) when the Egyptian President (his name escapes me at the moment but he succeeded Nasser), broke the ulitmate taboo and went to Israel to negotiate directly with the Jews. It wasn't going anywhere for months, until Carter got involved and Egypt and Israel signed a peace treaty, which has lasted for 30 years.
How many peace treaties have been signed with the Palestinians and how many times has it been broken? I've lost count.
Somehow I doubt that. But if you are serious about reading books about this time in history, I would recommend these two by Jewish Historian Ilan Pappe:
Making of the Arab-Israeli Conflict
by Ilan Pappe
http://books.google.ca/books?id=zAJZCKAwtPMC&dq=1947+fighting+1948&pg=PA52&ots=tzF_jsaH3v&sig=Wo-0vuwn7wUxB14iP2pSs-82DBk&prev=http://www.google.ca/search%3Fhl%3Den%26q%3D1947%2Bfighting%2B1948%26meta%3D&sa=X&oi=print&ct=result&cd=3&cad=legacy#PPA2,M1
and
A History of Modern Palestine: One Land, Two Peoples
by Ilan Pappe
http://www.google.ca/books?id=XLw4o...ppe&sig=kaD4Q_kZxtkzB0USSjJNp4bARdo#PPA124,M1
If you are as well read as you claim, perhaps you can explain the implications of 8th declaration of the 1942 Biltmore Programme to 1.2 million non-Jews living in Palestine or as the Zionists described it, "the land without people for the people without land".
That Programme is described in the books above, but you can also find information about it on the internet:
Please explain how the pre-1948 war activities of the Irgun and Lehi fit into your viewpoint that "the Arabs started the aggression"? Their actions are described in detail in history books like the ones above, but you can also read about their activities in less detail on the internet in wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irgun
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lehi_(group)
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earth_as_one for someone who constantly cuts and pastes to make a point, I have no need nor the desire to explain anything to you. For years you have been cutting and pasting, are you completely devoid of critical thought? I think so.
Is this statement, this quote repeated above, indicative of the American way of thinking and discussion? While one person "cuts'npastes" and the other person confirms they've undertaken some "heavy research"... (effectively cutting and pasting from books....) the final assessment is that someone whose research doesn't meet the satisfaction of somone else....is "devoid of critical thought"....?
It's swell regurgitating the volumes of Israel did this and Palestine did that and those people are to blame and these people are terrorists and on and on and on and on....
Who's been in bed with Israel for decades? who's been supplying money and war materiel to Israel for decades, who's been responsible for siding with Israel at the U.N. when Israel breaks U.N. policies and who has effected a policy in the Middle East that serves the interests of Israel before anyone else in the region......
Let's see now, would that be the nation that's toxified enormous areas of South East Asia? Might it be a nation that has practiced "regime change" to ensure that consumer markets in America can continue to flourish on the backs of the poor in third-world nation sweatshops? Could it be the nation that has sponsored terrorism and even built schools to teach others how to over-throw governments? Perhaps its the nation that has sat by and done nothing when ample and graphic evidence of genocide and atrocities is revealed as happening in half a dozen other locations around the world...yet maintains its supply of money international support and weapons to Israel?
Is it the government that has demonstrated that the Israeli "cause" is more important to its agenda than the protection and welfare of its own citizens and allows billions to be sent to Israel while bridges collapse and natural disasters create havoc on its people? Is there any substance to the notion that the elecoral process of the United States was tampered with to ensure that pro-Israeli pro-Manifest Destiny factions within America were prepared to take Americans to war to satisfy the Israeli agenda of solidifying its authority in the Middle East despite the decades of war and destruction funded by America?
Why might one ask does America care so greatly about Israel? By any examination possible, Israel certainly isn't a "democracy", certainly the argument can be made that America isn't a democracy either but why is there this unrelenting enthusiasm for paying Israel to assult Palestinians with Bradley's and armored bulldozers as it claims land to which it wasn't and isn't entitled? Why is it that the American people feel perfectly OK standing by while Israel behaves the way it has and yet is so eager and exhausting in its efforts to paint a phoney picture of the potential danger of an oil producing nation like Iraq.....?
The fisasco in the Middle East is less about Israeli Palestinian differences than its about the supposedly last remaining superpower flexing its muscle. Could it be that because there are more Jews in New York than all of Israel that the political structure in Michael Bloombergs hood has been successfully manipulated to serve the interests of Israel before the interests of Americans?
While nations in the region have supplied arms and stirred propaganda against the situation in Israel, one might be inclined to understand that that's because they're "locals", locals who've watched as Israel has recieved billions in aid from America while fundamentalist radicals have corrupted governments in several Middle Eastern nations and been allowed by the United States and the flow of money from America's enormous appetites for oil to concretize the issues.
America it seems is a "street vendor" who's like any lady of the evening, willing to lay down for a price and perform services for anyone with enough of what that lady seeks....
How long might the situation in the Middle East have lasted if America hadn't financed terror on both sides and behaved with even a modicum of appropriateness....? How many Israelis and how many people of other nations might have survived if a Zionist cabal using money and weapons given them by America had recieved nothing?
America is a murdering charlatan that's provoked war and financed revolutions from Nicaragua to Chile, has and continues to use paid mercenaries in Iraq, turned to secret prisons and torture as a policy in fighting its agenda....
America has become exactly what the people of America have been told is the "standard" in nations brutalized by the United States under the guise of "protecting American interests"...a banana republic that can have its election process stolen by insiders, a spoiled-child attitude that regards every other nation and every other people of the world as second-class and lower on the evolutionary ladder than the American mongrel.
I think Not is as American as they come, unwilling to even entertain that the responsibility for much of what's wrong in the world isn't so much the local issues and events, but the manipulation of governments and economies by the great bully, the last imperial regime....the United States of America.
Don't expect balance in any conversation you might have with a person so drenched in the blood of greed and "patriotism" as you will with I think Not....there's little difference betwen this persons brand of conditional acceptance and situational morality than there is in any rabid fundamentalist you'd find anywhere in the world.
Little point in discussing these issues with anyone who'd reduce the debate to accusations and character assassinations.....yes the American way.....
No, it's indicative of the way I criticize someone who can't express their own opinion without resorting to someone else's claims.
I haven't cut and paste from any books, I have read many books and formed my own opinion on the subject, I believe that's a stark difference from cut and paste. You of course have to twist and turn every single subject, and veer way of topic just make any point other than the discussion at hand.
Get a new hobby, your contributions are old and predictable.
The rest of your post of course is the usual blather.
I doubt ITN is capable of serious debate. His tactics remind me of Dan Akroyd's debating style on Saturday Night Live:
ITN, you should read this:
Debating 101
My list of assertions are:
1) Influential Zionist organizations had planned to ethnically cleanse Palestine of non-Jews well before before the 1948 war.
2) Zionist terrorist groups began preparing to cleanse Palestine of non-Jews and fight a war with neighboring nations well before the 1948 war.
3) Zionist terrorist organizations began ethnically cleansing Palestine of non Jews in 1947, nearly a year before the 1948 war. In fact, their ethnic cleansing activities, atrocities and crimes against humanity caused the 1948 war.
4) Zionist terrorist organizations ethnically cleansed areas inside and outside of the area designated for a Jewish homeland by the UN before, during and after the 1948 war.
5) Most Palestinians ethnically cleansed by Jewish terrorist organizations before, during and after the war were unarmed civilians who did not participate in violence before, during or after the 1948 war.
6) Zionist terrorist organizations used rape, torture and murder, before, during and after the 1948 war in an attempt to ethnically cleanse Palestine of non-Jews. (That incomplete process continues to this day)
7) Zionist terrorist organization were better armed, trained and led than their adversaries.
8 ) Zionist terrorist organizations later became the Israeli Defense Force.
9) During and after the 1948 war, Israel Defense Forces committed war crimes and crimes against humanity against unarmed civilians. (They continue to commit war crimes and crimes against humanity against unarmed civilians to this day)
As evidence, I reference Jewish/Israeli historians who have examined recently declassified Israeli government archives. Links, are provided in my previous post.
What I would like ITN to provide is proof to back up his assertions. I would like to know if those books are more recent than the books I referenced above and if those books take into account recently declassified Israli government archives regarding this period.
ITN, you should read this:
Debating 101
My list of assertions are:
1) Influential Zionist organizations had planned to ethnically cleanse Palestine of non-Jews well before before the 1948 war.
2) Zionist terrorist groups began preparing to cleanse Palestine of non-Jews and fight a war with neighboring nations well before the 1948 war.
3) Zionist terrorist organizations began ethnically cleansing Palestine of non Jews in 1947, nearly a year before the 1948 war. In fact, their ethnic cleansing activities, atrocities and crimes against humanity caused the 1948 war.
4) Zionist terrorist organizations ethnically cleansed areas inside and outside of the area designated for a Jewish homeland by the UN before, during and after the 1948 war.
5) Most Palestinians ethnically cleansed by Jewish terrorist organizations before, during and after the war were unarmed civilians who did not participate in violence before, during or after the 1948 war.
6) Zionist terrorist organizations used rape, torture and murder, before, during and after the 1948 war in an attempt to ethnically cleanse Palestine of non-Jews. (That incomplete process continues to this day)
7) Zionist terrorist organization were better armed, trained and led than their adversaries.
8 ) Zionist terrorist organizations later became the Israeli Defense Force.
9) During and after the 1948 war, Israel Defense Forces committed war crimes and crimes against humanity against unarmed civilians. (They continue to commit war crimes and crimes against humanity against unarmed civilians to this day)
As evidence, I reference Jewish/Israeli historians who have examined recently declassified Israeli government archives. Links, are provided in my previous post.
What I would like ITN to provide is proof to back up his assertions. I would like to know if those books are more recent than the books I referenced above and if those books take into account recently declassified Israli government archives regarding this period.