No Evidence Of Widespread hezbollah 'shielding

[jimmoyer]

The entire issue is well beyond reason and resolution when after the time passed and the atrocities commited by both sides are juxtaposed that the lofty intellects of bigots and testosterone junkies are provided the opportunity to vent their spleens in intentional and purposefully personal baiting and demonstrations of disdain for anyone's different opinion.
-----------------------------MikeyDB-----------------------------------------------------------------------


Well said.

All I can say, is that removing the Jews from the whole area, not just the West Bank, will still not solve the problems of the Palestinian society. If you eject them all, what does that do for the maturity of the region ? Most could care less about evolving, because the more immediate pressing needs of shelter, jobs are a huge tree blocking the view of the rest of the forest.

Like Mahmoud Abbas said, the Isrealis need security, and we Palestinians need a decent life.

 

[darkbeaver]

Civilian targets are vital valid targets. There is no way to ignor that truth and conduct sucessfull efficient war. The basic elements of war have never changed. The heart and soul of any enemy are the kitchens and workshops of the civilians. WW1 is a good example, common cannon fodder died in the thousands on a dayly basis for four years no progress was made untill one side was exhausted and it's people humiliated completely.
Isreals reliance on genocide for fifty years has ensured it will have a short bleak future. It will never enjoy the peace it says it longs for. Blowback is blowback.

 

[MikeyDB]

I quite agree Jim, the region is "broken" and it's going to be one of those places that will pay an incredibly high price for survival as the global climate changes. A generation (actually I suppose several generations) have been lost to this insane dynamic. There are no industries and manufacturing facilities to provide work for anyone.... There is no "pathway" or avenue to making things "right" anymore in this region for anyone who lives there and unfortunately the purse strings that wield the greatest power are loathe to sever the American umbilical cord.

As I've said before, the regrettable conclusion seems to be that like Iraq, once the lid on the box has been opened it may well be a case of simply standing back and letting the people who live there settle their own issues.....

Rwanda notwithstanding, a people have a right to self-determination and although extremely complicated by notions like "vested interests" and the ever-present willingness of Jews to hold the world accountable forever for the insanity of the Holocaust... Shut off all the funding from anywhere (both sides) and let the chips fall where they may.

For decades the sill of diplomats has been tried and tried again to address the issues involved and what we're left with is on-going bloodshed and mayhem.

Despite the fantasy of Americans, you can't "export" "democracy" and you can't really expect that after decades of failure in seeking resolution to the Middle East Boil....that anything short of full military intervention would make a lick of difference...

And we have many examples of how well military interventions work in solving these kinds of situations now don't we...?

Bush nor Harper have anything even remotely akin to an understanding of "civil rights" and "freedom" or for that matter "representative democracy", Europe is consumed with a self-interest only marginally less than that of the United Corporations of America, and Britain is so contorted in deciding whether their troops in Iraq (an illegal and illegitimate expression of these two "democratic" monstrosities....) should stay or go.... China is being co-opted by wealthy American corporations to produce junk and sell a gullible public garbage...and escape responsibility by throwing up their hands and claiming "China" is the "bad guy"....

Is it reasonable to expect something other than the bull that's been witnessed by everyone in the world coming out of the United States (all the "free" nations for that matter) can lead to resolution in this region of the world?

No

 

[darkbeaver]

Pray for alien intervention.

 

[CDNBear]

What the war proved is that cheap man portable munitions like RPGs and MANPADS can take out expensive tanks and helicopters. We have entered a new era of warfare. The technologies which have historically given Israel an edge are obsolete. Israel got out of the last war by bombing civilian targets until Hezbollah agreed to a ceasefire. I suppose that could be considered a win. Eventually Israel's adversaries will have the same ability and then Israel will be forced to fight a war without targeting civilians.

You think that's new?

I have news for ya...That info/intel is decades old.

Veitnam
Cambodia
Laos
Burma
Indonesia
Somalia

and so on.

If you think this is new and Israel can not counter it, your bias has blinded you to reality.

Well lets hope that happens soon so the Paleoswinians can stop blowing up buses full of civilians and can quit aiming katyusha rockets at elementary schools.

That would be nice, but I would add stop using civilian locals to launch attacks they know will draw Israeli retrobution.

I disagree with targetting civilians. Wars should be between soldiers. Soldiers/militants which target civilians are war criminals in my view. But your viewpoint that Palestinian militants are the only ones guilty of killing innocent civilians is completely wrong. Please visit this site and compare.

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/

Israeli soldiers kill innocent Palestinian civilians daily.

When will you get it? The Israelis are retaliating for agression. It isn't their fault that the "militants" use civilian structures to launch their attacks on Israel.

That's not to say that Israel could show some restraint, but you can hardly condemn Israel for reating to what ammounts to militant harasment.

I'm not commenting on which side is right or wrong, but how is this a counterargument? Is this supposed to be a constructive post?

Gainsaying is a schoolyard tactic.

Pangloss

Hey, if the shoe fits...HRW has never shown any objectivity and if you think it has, please post some proof. Till then they will be nothing more then a sad joke of an organisation.

Palestinians live under a brutal and illegal military occupation. They are subjected to curfews, expulsions, home demolitions, legalized torture, and a highly imaginative assortment of human rights violations by people who recently immigrated to the region. No justifiable comparison can be drawn between the level of official accountability to which Palestinans are held for the actions of a few individuals and the responsibility for the systematic and intense violence against the entire Palestinian population practiced with impunity by the state of Israel.

International law grants a people fighting an illegal occupation the right to use ‘all necessary means at their disposal’ to end their occupation. The Palestinian resistance is as legal and legitimate as the French resistance to Nazi occupation or Black South African resistance to Apartheid.

Bullshyte!!!

The French Resistance, the only french organisation I have any respect for, did not target civilians or civilian locals in Germany. They targeted military objectives, stationed within France. They harrassed the German Military occupiers, not their own people, not German civilians. A liteny of facts obviously lost on you. I cannot comment on the South African, because I don't know enough about it.

 

[Unforgiven]

Bullshyte!!!

The French Resistance, the only french organisation I have any respect for, did not target civilians or civilian locals in Germany. They targeted military objectives, stationed within France. They harrassed the German Military occupiers, not their own people, not German civilians. A liteny of facts obviously lost on you. I cannot comment on the South African, because I don't know enough about it.

You know I have a problem with that. You can always find soldiers to fill the ranks if the Industrial complex is strong and the propaganda machine is working right. Blow up a factory and build a new one creating jobs and feeding the IC. Only target soldiers and you can have a perpetual war that just feeds money into the pockets of those who are able to objectify soldiers as a commodity rather than people. "That's what they signed up for" is the call to profit.

I say target the civilian population. I know that sounds harsh and the antithesis of peace but I submit that it's the politicians that make the wars and they are pressured by people. No one wants to lose their splendid job over something they can control. To hell with soldiers, start killing civilians en mass and see how long the lust for war lasts.

Would you elect a president or prime minister that was lining his pockets along with the IC through your own blood and that of your family? Not me! I would want the miserable bugger who wants to kill off as many of their civilians as possible and convince them to leave me and us the hell alone.

If you start losing a few hundred thousand civilians a month, you have in short order an angry electorate. One that isn't going to allow you to ride out your term waiting for some election soothed by the distraction of media and the comfort of convenience.

Remove that comfort and convenience and you replace with motivation.

 

[lone wolf]

"...If you start losing a few hundred thousand civilians a month, you have in short order an angry electorate. One that isn't going to allow you to ride out your term waiting for some election soothed by the distraction of media and the comfort of convenience...."

That's assuming your enemy of the day elects their government....

Wolf

 

[CDNBear]

You know I have a problem with that. You can always find soldiers to fill the ranks if the Industrial complex is strong and the propaganda machine is working right. Blow up a factory and build a new one creating jobs and feeding the IC. Only target soldiers and you can have a perpetual war that just feeds money into the pockets of those who are able to objectify soldiers as a commodity rather than people. "That's what they signed up for" is the call to profit.

I say target the civilian population. I know that sounds harsh and the antithesis of peace but I submit that it's the politicians that make the wars and they are pressured by people. No one wants to lose their splendid job over something they can control. To hell with soldiers, start killing civilians en mass and see how long the lust for war lasts.

Would you elect a president or prime minister that was lining his pockets along with the IC through your own blood and that of your family? Not me! I would want the miserable bugger who wants to kill off as many of their civilians as possible and convince them to leave me and us the hell alone.

If you start losing a few hundred thousand civilians a month, you have in short order an angry electorate. One that isn't going to allow you to ride out your term waiting for some election soothed by the distraction of media and the comfort of convenience.

Remove that comfort and convenience and you replace with motivation.

That doesn't seem to be working in Israel...

I guess, "Never again" actually means something to them.

There's something to be said for a peoples 'resolve'.

 

[Unforgiven]

"...If you start losing a few hundred thousand civilians a month, you have in short order an angry electorate. One that isn't going to allow you to ride out your term waiting for some election soothed by the distraction of media and the comfort of convenience...."

That's assuming your enemy of the day elects their government....

Wolf

Of course we elect ours and in short order would either not have to worry about their's or change our own to bring an end to war.

 

[Unforgiven]

That doesn't seem to be working in Israel...

I guess, "Never again" actually means something to them.

There's something to be said for a peoples 'resolve'.

Neither is it practiced in Israel. I think if it was the conflict would be over in short order and there would be no Palestine left to form a state. Just Israel.

 

[CDNBear]

Neither is it practiced in Israel. I think if it was the conflict would be over in short order and there would be no Palestine left to form a state. Just Israel.

Fair enough.

 

[lone wolf]

Of course we elect ours and in short order would either not have to worry about their's or change our own to bring an end to war.

So ... you propose it's okay to wipe out an entire population as long as you win. How does that make your government any better than your government's enemy?

Wolf

 

[Unforgiven]

So ... you propose it's okay to wipe out an entire population as long as you win. How does that make your government any better than your government's enemy?

Wolf

Only in retaliation and only until one side is forced into stopping aggression and negotiation resumes. If that means an entire population is wiped out, then that's the course that population has chosen.

 

[55Mercury]

heh heh, I've always said in order to make the world a better place a helluvalotta people gotta die!

A sad paradox, really, that that path to beauty has to trudge right through the heart of ugliness.

 

[jimmoyer]

After reading all our failed attempts to resolve the issue of Palestine, I don't think my old idea is any the lesser of all that.



I've proposed this before.

The Million Midget Man Naked March in Jerusalem.

The problem is large. But the man is small. And more importantly, there's a million of 'em.
And it's a march of the naked truth in all its vulnerability.

Naked Midgets everywhere if you attempt to scatter them.

Keep them en masse.

Holding hands, bravely, heads held high.

The enormity of our smallness.

 

[darkbeaver]

Isreal has become too expensive to care about. I'am long since tired of considering thier self-induced
problems. A nation of liars and murdering thieves schooled in genocide and war. What loss would it be to the world to lose Isreal? None at all. When a nations security demands the death and impoverishment of so many to make it feel safe is it realy worth the human effort? And the answer is, NO it ain't. And what about thier friends? Screw them to. Harpercon first and then the filthy nest of the rest. America is also way too expensive to care about any longer. Maybe Americans could be given thier own country somewhere, so they could continue to practice thier liberty and freedom under Dog without the constant interferance from the global rabble not versed in the intricate science of representative christian democrazy.

 

[jimmoyer]

Man, Darkbeaver, you're pretty damn cranky.

Don't fall into Old Man Syndrome.

Don't do it.

 

[CDNBear]

Isreal has become too expensive to care about. I'am long since tired of considering thier self-induced
problems. A nation of liars and murdering thieves schooled in genocide and war. What loss would it be to the world to lose Isreal? None at all. When a nations security demands the death and impoverishment of so many to make it feel safe is it realy worth the human effort? And the answer is, NO it ain't. And what about thier friends? Screw them to. Harpercon first and then the filthy nest of the rest. America is also way too expensive to care about any longer. Maybe Americans could be given thier own country somewhere, so they could continue to practice thier liberty and freedom under Dog without the constant interferance from the global rabble not versed in the intricate science of representative christian democrazy.

 

[earth_as_one]

Only in retaliation and only until one side is forced into stopping aggression and negotiation resumes. If that means an entire population is wiped out, then that's the course that population has chosen.

Are you proposing a "Final Solution" to the "Palestinian Question"? Seems to me, that's how we got here...