Catholic Discussion

[karrie]

I think that is a terrible oversimplification of what pedophilia is and an even worse way of dealing with it.

Note the qualifying term... pedophiles are 'largely' people who.....

Prove it wrong if you want. I'd love to see stats proving that they have healthy mature relations, because, that's not what I've ever seen to be true.

And, castration is extreme, but, has been proven over and over and over again, to be effective for pedophilia. again, feel free to prove it wrong.

 

[mapleleafgirl]

i can't recall who wrote it, but I can attest to it.... the issue seems to bother people outside of the church much more than it bothers those within the church. that's one of the joys of living in an era of such religious freedom.

that makes sense. you know, even in the short time since i started going to a catholic church and talking to other kids and old people about issues, this is one i havent heard at all. i hear about bringing back the latin mass, married priests and birth control, but not about women as priests. where i do hear about it is with my friends at school who arent catholic. i wonder why non-catholics care so much about what we do anyway?

 

[mapleleafgirl]

This is something I can agree with. The other post really got me going, sorry. However I hope you can agree with me that there was a time when the Church did tell women to obey and they were the servents of men. However today I don't think this is preached any more.

was that just in the church though? i think everywhere was like that no matter what religion you were. its still like that in muslim countries and parts of africa. isnt it?

 

[mapleleafgirl]

I agree. I wonder how many actual cases there are for demonic possession though? Do you have any personal stories on this event?

do demons exist for real? do you believe they exist? that is sort of freaky.

 

[sanctus]

do demons exist for real? do you believe they exist? that is sort of freaky.

Funny, people readily want to believe in Angels, God and the Saints, but dismiss the idea of the "other side". You can't have one without the other. In other words, if you accept that God exists, then so too does the Devil. In that light, yes Maple, demons exist, or more specifically, evil which incarnates as evil spirits which surround us all the time. Even the Scriptures talks about our battle in life as a spiritual one between good and evil.

 

[sanctus]

i can't recall who wrote it, but I can attest to it.... the issue seems to bother people outside of the church much more than it bothers those within the church. that's one of the joys of living in an era of such religious freedom.

You're right, and I wrote it. Many things complained about the Church in the secular world are actually non-issues for Church members. The two most frequent complaints we hear as Catholics are about female priests and homosexual marriages. In no way, shape or form are these issues important to Catholics. You simply rarely hear about them in Church circles. These seem to be major issues in the secular world though, and hence why we seem to have them thrust at us as Catholics every single time we rear our heads in a discussion forum. But to encapsulate, this is a non-issue in the Church. There are no widespread cries within the membership for female priests. In fact, the opposite is true. In every poll ever taken by the Church, the overwhelming majority of Catholics supports an all-male priesthood. The question therefore becomes, do we accomodate God and indirectly our own membership, or the people outside the Church?

 

[sanctus]

I doubt highly that there are any more pedophile clergy than any other form of society. And I would suspect that there are more pedophiles in professions that are constantly in contact with kids than the clergy of whichever religion, the teaching profession, for example.

Statistically speaking, you're right. But what is different is the high exposure this issue receives because it is from the Church. the media, being what it is, blows it all out of proportion to the actual facts. This is not to say the Church does not recognize and mourn over the issue with its clergy! But it is hardly the norm for Catholic priests, despite what the secular world thinks.

 

[Curiosity]

Dear Sanctus

Well you are certainly establishing a following here - a questioning and critical following which I think is excellent for you - perhaps those outside of the indoctrination into Roman Catholicism have many questions which we are removed from asking a priest.

Your answers are kind and worthy and do not mock what must seem to you as repetitive.

I am sorry I am still hung up on sin - being a humanist and equating perpetuation of the species as one of the "higher callings" in life as well, it disappoints me - the Church equates the necessary act of replication as a "sin".....

A "sin against whom I wonder" when it is the only way others are to follow us in this world?

You mention that Mary was "sinless" indicating that the Church considers replication a sin? Am I reading this correctly or where you writing that she committed no earthly sin and yet was impregnated by unnatural means and delivered a human child?

Not only is this rapturous and magical thought - and it may have occurred and I am not arguing the belief system - I am only asking again why replication of the species is consered sinful.

That the Church considers those who share marriage and a calling to priesthood cannot do their work well without distraction..... which is also insulting the state of marriage which is a meeting of two distinct human creatures who I see as complementing each in their lives and passing that on to others.... Anglican priests seem to have no problem with marriage and have never done so....

Perhaps one has to be born into your faith to acceptance without question.... and I appreciate not only any response you can deliver to me (except "get lost" lol)... that I am not asking you to be defensive with your Church's rituals and teachings ... only that as an outsider they seem contradictory to what the majority of humans are given..... to believe marriage and mating is also a godly pursuit...and a challenge to live an exemplary life.

I simply resent the teachings from any source that physical love and creation between a man and a woman are "sin".... and that appears to be the core teaching I am reading here....notwithstanding your fine arguments to the opposite.

The Church (to me) seems much too involved in sexual matters and reproduction than total immersion in a life of purity....and marriage.... in love.....

While I don't practice lenten denial any more ... I will abstain from ice cream for as many days as I can.... over a week at least in deference to your kindness here, sharing your thoughts and maintaining an excellent balance of fielding the diverse questions from the even more diverse questioners!!

 

[sanctus]

Dear Sanctus

Well you are certainly establishing a following here - a questioning and critical following which I think is excellent for you - perhaps those outside of the indoctrination into Roman Catholicism have many questions which we are removed from asking a priest.

Your answers are kind and worthy and do not mock what must seem to you as repetitive.

Well my friend, you've given me an epic to write!No question bothers me, so I'll do my best!

I am sorry I am still hung up on sin - being a humanist and equating perpetuation of the species as one of the "higher callings" in life as well, it disappoints me - the Church equates the necessary act of replication as a "sin".....

A "sin against whom I wonder" when it is the only way others are to follow us in this world?

A sin against self perhaps? Sexual misconduct is never a solitary action. Take adultery. In doing this the perpetuator hurts many people besides the intergrity of his own self. The Church takes it cue from God and is concerned with the state of people's actions as it relates to their well-being.God prohibits sexual relations outside the bonds of matrimony and so we have no choice but to echo that admonishment.

You mention that Mary was "sinless" indicating that the Church considers replication a sin? Am I reading this correctly or where you writing that she committed no earthly sin and yet was impregnated by unnatural means and delivered a human child?

The doctrines of the faith teach us that in order to produce the Christ, the vessal had to be pure. In this vein, we believe Mary was freed from sin in order to be a pure vessal of our Lord.

Not only is this rapturous and magical thought - and it may have occurred and I am not arguing the belief system - I am only asking again why replication of the species is consered sinful.

That the Church considers those who share marriage and a calling to priesthood cannot do their work well without distraction..... which is also insulting the state of marriage which is a meeting of two distinct human creatures who I see as complementing each in their lives and passing that on to others.... Anglican priests seem to have no problem with marriage and have never done so....

The Church, as I've mentioned many times, has different Rites. Celibacy is the rule for the main Rite-the Latin Rite only. Other Rites do permit for a married priesthood. However, since becoming celibate myself, I can testify that I am much more focused on my ministry without having the distraction of worrying over a wife. Though I am still, of course, sometimes distracted from the task as a parent!

Perhaps one has to be born into your faith to acceptance without question.... and I appreciate not only any response you can deliver to me (except "get lost" lol)... that I am not asking you to be defensive with your Church's rituals and teachings ... only that as an outsider they seem contradictory to what the majority of humans are given..... to believe marriage and mating is also a godly pursuit...and a challenge to live an exemplary life.

Isn't that the goal of everyone? To have a successful and monogamous marriage where the two grow old together? That is not just the dream of Catholics, is it?

I simply resent the teachings from any source that physical love and creation between a man and a woman are "sin".... and that appears to be the core teaching I am reading here....notwithstanding your fine arguments to the opposite.

The Church (to me) seems much too involved in sexual matters and reproduction than total immersion in a life of purity....and marriage.... in love.....

Probably because the issue is a major one in the world. Everywhere we go, everything we see, we are confrotned with sex and its after-effects. The Church may not be of the world, but it does exist in the world and so replies to the issues that concern all of us.

While I don't practice lenten denial any more ... I will abstain from ice cream for as many days as I can.... over a week at least in deference to your kindness here, sharing your thoughts and maintaining an excellent balance of fielding the diverse questions from the even more diverse questioners!!

Thank you. The idea of denial is a self discipline, not a test from God. It is a time of cleansing both of the soul and of the mind. A perfect Lent is one in which one arises spiritually renewed!

 

[Curiosity]

Thank you Sanctus

I will go without ice cream - your essay in response was a good read and one which I will try to comprehend.....

My only outstanding issue is your critique of marriage as "worrying over a wife".... hurts me a great deal....how little you donate to what is man's only salvation from extinction..a loving couple who replicate and nurture to adulthood their children...humanity continues....the one thing any Church cannot guarantee.

 

[sanctus]

Thank you Sanctus

I will go without ice cream - your essay in response was a good read and one which I will try to comprehend.....

My only outstanding issue is your critique of marriage as "worrying over a wife".... hurts me a great deal....how little you donate to what is man's only salvation from extinction..a loving couple who replicate and nurture to adulthood their children...humanity continues....the one thing any Church cannot guarantee.

Well that isn't quite the spirit I meant it in. what I meant was I am a free agent, so to speak. You have no idea how difficult it is for the wife whose husband is a priest. She must live in a situation where her husband will always put the Church first, over everything.

 

[look3467]

I took part of your post here because I had to get my big mouth in on this. I agree, the way AJ wrote that struck me exactly the same. I personally do not care for the implication that because I don't have boy parts I am somehow evil. I'm not certain this is what he meant though, he's hard to read at the best of times. But if this is what he meant, no way. If goodness is equal, so too must be sin. Male or female, there can't possibly be a difference!

Adam represents the spirit of God as perfection: married to the flesh which is weak because of its nature and comparison to the Spirit of God.

The flesh is the weaker one of the two in the marriage.

But both are equally in spirit and the flesh. The same sprit that is in Adam is of the same spirit that is in Eve.

Flesh Adam is superior in design (Strength) while flesh Eve is desirable and weaker in design.
Evolution of spiritual knowledge will one day equate both as equal.

Peace>>>AJ:love9:

 

[look3467]

The term "subject to", as when the bible tells the women to be subjected to the husband is saying that the flesh is subject to the spirit which is in us, that hopefully being the spirit of God in us.

Here’s are the verses: Col 3:18 Wives, submit yourselves to your husbands, for that is what you should do as Christians.
Eph 5:24 And so wives must submit themselves completely to their husbands just as the church submits itself to Christ.

The term “submit” is used to show that the flesh is subject to the Spirit of God.

After all, take the spirit out of the flesh and see what happens. So the spirit is the stronger of the two.

This whole subjection business is God order of observances as He is the life of His subjects.

Here is the list:

Young submit to the elder. (Eve to Adam)
1Pe 5:5 In the same way you younger people must submit yourselves to your elders. And all of you must put on the apron of humility, to serve one another; for the scripture says, "God resists the proud, but shows favor to the humble."

Wives to husbamds. (Eve to Adam)
1Pe 3:1 In the same way you wives must submit yourselves to your husbands, so that if any of them do not believe God's word, your conduct will win them over to believe. It will not be necessary for you to say a word,

Servants to masters (Eve to Adam)
1Pe 2:18 You servants must submit yourselves to your masters and show them complete respect, not only to those who are kind and considerate, but also to those who are harsh.

Subject to rulers and authoritys (Eve to Adam)
Tit 3:1 Remind your people to submit to rulers and authorities, to obey them, and to be ready to do good in every way.

One to another (Adam to Eve and Eve to Adam)
Eph 5:21 submit yourselves to one another because of your reverence for Christ.

Nation or kingdom does not submit to God (Eve to Adam)
Jer 27:8 "But if any nation or kingdom will notsubmit to his rule, then I will punish that nation by war, starvation, and disease until I have let Nebuchadnezzar destroy it completely.

And to show the spirit of what it is that submits: Psa 32:9 Don't be stupid like a horse or a mule, which must be controlled with a bit and bridle to make it submit."

The spirit of submission is what God established as His rule. As Jesus did to a “T”.

Peace>>>AJ:love9:

 

[marygaspe]

Adam represents the spirit of God as perfection: married to the flesh which is weak because of its nature and comparison to the Spirit of God.

The flesh is the weaker one of the two in the marriage.

But both are equally in spirit and the flesh. The same sprit that is in Adam is of the same spirit that is in Eve.

Flesh Adam is superior in design (Strength) while flesh Eve is desirable and weaker in design.
Evolution of spiritual knowledge will one day equate both as equal.

Peace>>>AJ:love9:

Poppycock! We are the same in Christ. This thread is Catholic discussion, no need for these sorts of theories here.

Catechism of the Catholic Church 2334 "In creating men 'male and female,' God gives man and woman an equal personal dignity." "Man is a person, man and woman equally so, since both were created in the image and likeness of the personal God."

 

[marygaspe]

The term "subject to", as when the bible tells the women to be subjected to the husband is saying that the flesh is subject to the spirit which is in us, that hopefully being the spirit of God in us.


Peace>>>AJ:love9:

Yeah, that'd be the sorry day in hell I'd "submit" myself to my husband. Over 30 years plus and I am certain he'd not even be foolish enough to say such a thing to me.

Catechism of the Catholic Church 1645 "The unity of marriage, distinctly recognized by our Lord, is made clear in the equal personal dignity which must be accorded to man and wife in mutual and unreserved affection." Polygamy is contrary to conjugal love which is undivided and exclusive.

 

[sanctus]

The term "subject to", as when the bible tells the women to be subjected to the husband is saying that the flesh is subject to the spirit which is in us, that hopefully being the spirit of God in us.

Here’s are the verses: Col 3:18 Wives, submit yourselves to your husbands, for that is what you should do as Christians.
Eph 5:24 And so wives must submit themselves completely to their husbands just as the church submits itself to Christ.
Peace>>>AJ:love9:

Typical that you would misquote the Scriptures.You neglected to mention the part about the husband submitting also to the wife Both must submit one to the another in the Sacrament of Matrimony.

 

[Curiosity]

Iiiy Yiiiiiiii Yiiiiii - what an awful word this "submit" is when used in context of a marriage... and yes I am taking about couple-dom not adultery (which keeps being mentioned)....and what is missing is the major word "love".

submit


verb

1. <LI class=yedthesauruslist>To conform to the will or judgment of another, especially out of respect or courtesy: bow 1, defer 2, yield. [FONT=arial,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]Idioms: [/SIZE][/FONT]give ground, give way. See precede, resist
2. To give in from or as if from a gradual loss of strength: bow 1, buckle, capitulate, succumb, surrender, yield. Informal: fold. See resist

SUBMIT? Even the first three letters are offensive.....

What's wrong with "share" "show love" "complement each other" "create together" ?????

 

[Sparrow]

Typical that you would misquote the Scriptures.You neglected to mention the part about the husband submitting also to the wife Both must submit one to the another in the Sacrament of Matrimony.

Thanks Sanctus, this is what I have always believed. Thank God my husband is also a person who believes the same or our marriage would not have lasted this long.

 

[look3467]

Poppycock! We are the same in Christ. This thread is Catholic discussion, no need for these sorts of theories here.

Catechism of the Catholic Church 2334 "In creating men 'male and female,' God gives man and woman an equal personal dignity." "Man is a person, man and woman equally so, since both were created in the image and likeness of the personal God."

Mary, think! I am not against what you think I am. Yes, God has created both male and female Adam. Why think the rib is mentioned? The rib represents the same level as Adam.

Let me x you a question? The word image. How many ways can that word be used?

Peace>>>AJ:love9:

 

[look3467]

Yeah, that'd be the sorry day in hell I'd "submit" myself to my husband. Over 30 years plus and I am certain he'd not even be foolish enough to say such a thing to me.

Catechism of the Catholic Church 1645 "The unity of marriage, distinctly recognized by our Lord, is made clear in the equal personal dignity which must be accorded to man and wife in mutual and unreserved affection." Polygamy is contrary to conjugal love which is undivided and exclusive.

Mary, I love you sister as my equal in Christ!

Gods order as to the earthly wise, is submission to the higher. Jesus submitted Himself under the rulers of the Jews. Could He not have called ten thousand of His angels and done away with His persecutors? He was submitting first to the Father's will, and then to the rulers of the people.

Everyone has to make that judgment for themselves.
I had a brother-in-law where the wife was the spiritual leader of the two. So it wasn’t possible for the husband to lead, or be the spiritual Adam, but rather was as the weaker vessel in spirit, the flesh. (Eve)

Here is the advice given to the wife of an unbelieving husband:1Pe 3:1 Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives;
1Pe 3:2 While they behold your chaste conversation coupled with fear.
1Pe 3:3 Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel;
1Pe 3:4 But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.

Coupled with: Eph 4:1 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,
Eph 4:2 With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;
Eph 4:3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.


It is not easy been a women and the spiritual leader at the same time.
Just think in comparison the Jewish high priests were to Christ? And Christ submitted to them?

If: not you who would maintain the unity of your marriage?

Submit your self first to Christ than to His guidance.

Peace>>>AJ:love9: