Catholic Discussion

sanctus

The Padre
Oct 27, 2006
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Sanctus, your thoughts? :D

First off, know that there are married men in the priesthood. They usually serve in Rites which traditionally, under special circumstances, allow married men into the priesthood.

The Bible states that ‘Therefore a man leaves his father and his mother and clings to his wife, and they become one flesh’ (Gen. 2, 24)."
Celibacy is not a Dogma of Faith but a disciplinary law designed to increase the dignity of the Priesthood. Contrary to popular mythology, celibacy has not always been the rule for priests of the Catholic Church. It was only introduced as a mandatory rule in the Western Church during the eleventh century, while in the East married men have always been allowed to become priests. However, once ordained, an Eastern Rite priest cannot marry, and only celibate monks can be chosen as bishops.
The Divine Master, Himself a Virgin born of a Virgin, spoke of virginity as follows: "Not everyone can accept this teaching, but only those to whom it is given. For there are eunuchs who have been so from birth, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by others, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. Let anyone accept this who can" (St. Matt. 19, 11-12).
Our Lord clearly praises celibacy when undertaken for his service and glory. The injunction to "be fruitful and multiply" in Genesis 1, 28 is only a general counsel for the human race, it is not meant to be obligatory for each individual. Otherwise, Christ would have been counselling and allowing people to live in a state of sin, including St. John the Baptist and all the Apostles except St. Peter.
The teaching of the Apostle of the Gentiles, St. Paul, is naturally the same as Our Lord’s. He, like Christ, led a life of celibacy and recommended it to others:"To the unmarried and the widows I say that it is well for them to remain unmarried as I am. But if they are not practicing self-control, they should marry. For it is better to marry than to be aflame with passion...Now concerning virgins, I have no command of the Lord...Are you bound to a wife? Do not seek to be free. Are you free from a wife? Do not seek a wife. But if you marry, you do not sin, and if a virgin marries, she does not sin" (1 Cor. 7, 8-9; 25; 27-28).
Furthermore, he expressly states that celibacy is a higher state than the state of marriage: "So that he who marries his betrothed does well; and he who refrains from marriage will do better" (v. 38).
In the face of the words and examples of Christ and St. Paul how can anyone say that the virginal life is not an excellent one and therefore deny souls the opportunity of following more closely the footsteps of their Master?
St. Paul also gives a practical reason why the Priesthood of Christ should practice celibacy: "The unmarried man is anxious about the affairs of the Lord, how to please the Lord; but the married man is anxious about the affairs of the world, how to please his wife, and his interests are divided" (vv 32-34).
The Catholic Church realizes that better work is done for God’s people by a celibate rather than married Clergy.
"But still, is not Celibacy against nature?"
With God all things are possible. Celibacy is not impossible because it is the grace of God, not purely human effort, that keeps a celibate person pure.
"But did not St. Paul say that ‘forbidding marriage’ was one of the ‘teachings of demons’ (1 Tim. 4, 1-3) and that a Bishop should be ‘married only once’ (1 Tim. 3, 2)?"
St. Paul did make such statements, but in the first case he was condemning Gnostic heretics who believed marriage to be evil in itself (while the Catholic Church has always regarded it as a sacrament of Christ); in the second case, St. Paul meant that if a Bishop marries it must be only once, not that he must marry for he himself - as mentioned earlier - never married.
 

sanctus

The Padre
Oct 27, 2006
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[B said:
westmanguy[/B];791028]Originally Posted by westmanguy


Celibacy, and people highly involved in church cannot marry

Ok, why can't a preist, or nun, be married, and be in a partnership with another person. I have heard that, its, that they need to be devoted fully ot the church, and not with a partner, but with these problems with molestation by priests.. why can't they marry?


The issue with the priests who molested children has nothing to do with their vow of celibacy. In fact, they obviously were men who could not control themselves and, in effect, renounced the vows they took to God Himself.
 

karrie

OogedyBoogedy
Jan 6, 2007
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Bull****. I made no snide comments. I made comments that I felt were very valid. I did not say that everyone feels the way I have portrayed. It is, however, addressed towards those who do. In the original post it talks about a time of opening hearts, opening minds, spiritual awakening, etc, etc. Well, I am merely stating that if this is your aim, then I suggest that for lent, one who does hate based on sexuality should shed that hate in the spirit of lent. I believe I am perfectly on topic. I believe that I am expressing my opinions, and you seem to have this desire to shut me out. I believe my opinions are very valid in this thread, and if you don't, that is your problem. You can call me names till you are blue in the face, I really don't ****ing care...I think I have made a very valid contribution to this thread. Maybe you would like to address what I have actually commented about then going on the attack? Or do you have no defence? Maybe you could try actually discussing it, as opposed to thinking up reasons why you won't?

Why are you swearing? I don't get it. I never said you weren't entitled to your opinions, but, the mods of this board do try to keep the threads pertinent to what was being discussed, and a debate on the church and homosexuality within another thread is likely to cause issue on the board. And no, I wouldn't call you names over it. many people are angry at the church over these issues. I merely suggested this is not the right thread. There's no need for you to come unglued about it, trust me. Like I've said before and will say again, I'd love to discuss the issue with you in a thread that is pertinent to the subject.
 

karrie

OogedyBoogedy
Jan 6, 2007
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The best sermon I ever received on Ash Wednesday was given at the TLM I attend. The priest stated that we should give up that which is keeping us from Christ.

Chances are great that sodas, candy, and hamburgers are not a barrier between us and Christ. Let's search our souls and give up that which is truely keeping us from being fully in communion with Christ.

Lent is about falling in love with Christ. Let's all fall in love together...

I like that view of what you should give up. it still doesn't help me to find something though.
 

m_levesque

Electoral Member
Dec 18, 2006
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I like that view of what you should give up. it still doesn't help me to find something though.

How about instead of finding something to give up,per se, you replace a behaviour you now do with something else. For example, give up a tv programme you like and instead of watching it say the rosary?
 

Sparrow

Council Member
Nov 12, 2006
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I took part of your post here because I had to get my big mouth in on this. I agree, the way AJ wrote that struck me exactly the same. I personally do not care for the implication that because I don't have boy parts I am somehow evil. I'm not certain this is what he meant though, he's hard to read at the best of times. But if this is what he meant, no way. If goodness is equal, so too must be sin. Male or female, there can't possibly be a difference!
Maybe I did misinterpret his msge but that is exactly how it hit me, between the eyes. However even after what I wrote I would never have wanted to be a priest, but I am sure that there are some women who might have made very good priests but that is not my piece of cake.
 

Sparrow

Council Member
Nov 12, 2006
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This is something I can agree with. The other post really got me going, sorry. However I hope you can agree with me that there was a time when the Church did tell women to obey and they were the servents of men. However today I don't think this is preached any more.
 

karrie

OogedyBoogedy
Jan 6, 2007
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Sanctus

Gotta love you - you bounced right past my pointed query.....and yes my intentions are pure and not designed to catch you or corner you but again.....

Was the primary role of the Church at the time B.C. that of a human female - impregnated what was to be God's son on earth? Whether Jesus (of the earth) went on to appoint male apostles completely
ignores that significant role Mary played and her importance in the connection between humanity and that which was most sacred.... the Christ Child.

No man impregnated Mary as I understand the story is told - therefore again I state - woman at this point in the historical teachings had the most important role of the future Christian following and ultimately the Christian Churches ....

And yet the Roman Catholic Church (and others) seek to identify males as the primary emissaries of the Word of God.

I have to wonder at the denial.... the omission of the true beauty of the choice that the Christ Child was born as a human... from a human female....

If all the history is fact and not tales for us to imagine to be fact over the centuries.... I do have to wonder....but with purity in my wondering Sanctus...

I hope you don't mind me piping in on a post that was meant for sanctus.

Mary's contribution as a human link to a higher power is acknowledged constantly and powerfully in the church. Anytime anyone sits down to pray a decade of the rosary, or the rosary in its entirety, they would be reminded over and over and over again that Mary is the mother of God, and has been endowed with great power because of that.
 

karrie

OogedyBoogedy
Jan 6, 2007
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I sort am still split on this...

I feel by agreeing to women's role in the church, I am not be equal to women..

i can't recall who wrote it, but I can attest to it.... the issue seems to bother people outside of the church much more than it bothers those within the church. that's one of the joys of living in an era of such religious freedom.
 

snfu73

disturber of the peace
Why are you swearing? I don't get it. I never said you weren't entitled to your opinions, but, the mods of this board do try to keep the threads pertinent to what was being discussed, and a debate on the church and homosexuality within another thread is likely to cause issue on the board. And no, I wouldn't call you names over it. many people are angry at the church over these issues. I merely suggested this is not the right thread. There's no need for you to come unglued about it, trust me. Like I've said before and will say again, I'd love to discuss the issue with you in a thread that is pertinent to the subject.
I'm not coming unglued. Sometimes I swear...sue me. I am mearly saying that I believe, in all honesty, that there is a place in this thread for the topic that I brought up. I believe it fits in very nicely, and am frustrated that instead of people talking about it, they just choose to call me troll. Am I upset. No. It's merely a discussion board. But, I will swear. They bleep me out anyway.

But back to the point I have been trying to make. If this is a time to reflect, and to get more intune with your beliefs and your spirituality...something that I think is great...I also think this is a time to look closely at religion, the impact of that religion on others, the impact that one leaves on the earth, the ideas that you subscribe to when you attach yourself to a religion, etc.
 

wallyj

just special
May 7, 2006
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Celibacy does not lead to pedophilia.Pedophiles are largely "people" who are unable to maintain healthy relationships with mature people so they involve themselves with those who do not understand mature relationships and cannot criticize thier shortcomings.Castration is one very effective cure .
 
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karrie

OogedyBoogedy
Jan 6, 2007
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The issue with the priests who molested children has nothing to do with their vow of celibacy. In fact, they obviously were men who could not control themselves and, in effect, renounced the vows they took to God Himself.

I often ask men two questions when I hear the theory that priests molest due to celibacy.

"If you had to turn celibate, would you turn to children?" The offer is a resounding NO.

"Do married men never molest children?" NO.

I don't understand why people cling so adamantly to the theory that celibacy causes pedophilia, rather than acknowledging that pedophiles are drawn to positions of authority, and ANYone in a position of authority of your children should be viewed as a potential abuser.
 

karrie

OogedyBoogedy
Jan 6, 2007
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Celibacy does not lead to pedophilia.Pedophiles are largely "people" who are unable to maintain healthy relationships with mature people so they involve themselves with those who do not understand mature relationships and cannot criticize thier shortcomings.Castration is one very effective cure .

brilliant post! I agree one hundred percent.
 

L Gilbert

Winterized
Nov 30, 2006
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I doubt highly that there are any more pedophile clergy than any other form of society. And I would suspect that there are more pedophiles in professions that are constantly in contact with kids than the clergy of whichever religion, the teaching profession, for example.