Catholic Discussion

[darkbeaver]

The question was on the role of women in the Church. My reply is as follows:
The most significant sources of conflict within the Catholic Church today revolve around the role and status of women. Should women be allowed to become priests? Must women be prevented from using artificial means of birth control? Are women equal to men in all things?
In 1994, Pope John Paul II issued a statement to the effect that the Church had no authority to admit women to the priesthood and that the question would have to be put off indefinitely. It wasn’t quite an announcement made from a position of infallibility, though it comes very close and there is some debate as to whether it qualifies as an infallible pronouncement.
For all the women who hoped that they might one day become priests, this struck hard, not simply because it denied them their aspirations but also because it appeared to deny them even the dignity of having a debate about the matter. To this day people who attempt to argue that perhaps women are fit to be priests do so with the risk of losing the right to call themselves Catholic theologians.
In this, the forces of conservatism are definitely in charge — but what else could John Paul have done? As noted above, debates over the status of women are probably the most contentious in the Catholic Church. If John Paul had even merely allowed the debate to continue, it probably would have meant continued rancor that would have pulled Catholics apart; had he given even a hit of approval for the ordination of women, it would have been even worse. The reality is, as our former Holy Father indicated, the Church does not have the authority to change the priesthood. This was started by Jesus and He selected men, and that is why the Church retains a male only priesthood and episcopate.

The church was started by Paul/Saul, not Jesus. The earliest churches included women 100% percent this herasy was burned and butchered out of existance, see Cathars,and Manichaaean and Albigenes. All were subject to brutal extermination in 11th and 13 th century france.:wave:

 

[snfu73]

Bull****. I made no snide comments. I made comments that I felt were very valid. I did not say that everyone feels the way I have portrayed. It is, however, addressed towards those who do. In the original post it talks about a time of opening hearts, opening minds, spiritual awakening, etc, etc. Well, I am merely stating that if this is your aim, then I suggest that for lent, one who does hate based on sexuality should shed that hate in the spirit of lent. I believe I am perfectly on topic. I believe that I am expressing my opinions, and you seem to have this desire to shut me out. I believe my opinions are very valid in this thread, and if you don't, that is your problem. You can call me names till you are blue in the face, I really don't ****ing care...I think I have made a very valid contribution to this thread. Maybe you would like to address what I have actually commented about then going on the attack? Or do you have no defence? Maybe you could try actually discussing it, as opposed to thinking up reasons why you won't?

 

[lieexpsr]

sometimes it seems to me like the label "christianity" covers a huge fractal pattern of scisms.

from my knowledge I don't believe that catholicism is inherently sexist, but members of the catholic church sometimes misinterpret what they see and learn and turn it into sexism. I agree that the best way to celebrate people's worth is to celebrate their differences, and women are very different to men in so many ways. For a start they're usually more subtle. maybe that's why their roles often are too

The Taliban chop off women's heads if they are caught in even the slightest infraction against their religion. Showing a bit of bare skin in public will do it. How long ago was it that Christian women were treated in roughly the same fashion by being stoned to death. Stoned to death because god's word demanded it. How long ago was it that they burned women at the stake because they were thought to be witches?

How many people in today's society still believe in witches adn excorcism? Does the catholic church believe in excorcism and do they still practice it in a few hidden cases?

EVIL, and it's not the atheist who is evil!

 

[Curiosity]

Karrie

My misinterpretion - sorry

 

[lieexpsr]

The church was started by Paul/Saul, not Jesus. The earliest churches included women 100% percent this herasy was burned and butchered out of existance, see Cathars,and Manichaaean and Albigenes. All were subject to brutal extermination in 11th and 13 th century france.:wave:

Good post darkbeaver!

 

[tanakar]

The best sermon I ever received on Ash Wednesday was given at the TLM I attend. The priest stated that we should give up that which is keeping us from Christ.

Chances are great that sodas, candy, and hamburgers are not a barrier between us and Christ. Let's search our souls and give up that which is truely keeping us from being fully in communion with Christ.

Lent is about falling in love with Christ. Let's all fall in love together...

 

[Said1]

You can change...just find faith.

Now you're just being sarcastic.

 

[tanakar]

The perception is that you're just jumping in and making snide comments to all involved in this post based on our religion, without finding out what we really think first. That's where the difference lies. If you care to discuss gay rights and gay marriage, open a thread, I'd be glad to pop in and give you my views, but here, discussing lent, it's just trolling.

It is trolling. On other boards I'm on the Catholics have a great way of dealing with it, we just skip over the attempts to deface our faith. Don't respond, they'll go find someone else to bother. Keep the focus on Christ and what this season means for US.

 

[westmanguy]

Deleted, as is off topic.....................................<sigh>

 

[tanakar]

The church was started by Paul/Saul, not Jesus. The earliest churches included women 100% percent this herasy was burned and butchered out of existance, see Cathars,and Manichaaean and Albigenes. All were subject to brutal extermination in 11th and 13 th century france.:wave:

Are you Catholic Darkbeaver? I assume not, so please don't tell us who started our Church. It was Jesus, and nothing you write will make this man think otherwise.

 

[tanakar]

I might as well post my original PM to marygaspe, which she forwarded to sanctus, which is now here. So then people can take a tackle at all my issues with the Catholic branch. And why I am Protestant. May change my mind, if I get some solid tackled answers! Cheers!:




Write away!

This is a thread on the role of women...let's leave it there.

 

[snfu73]

It is trolling. On other boards I'm on the Catholics have a great way of dealing with it, we just skip over the attempts to deface our faith. Don't respond, they'll go find someone else to bother. Keep the focus on Christ and what this season means for US.

So, once again, instead of responding with a worthwhile answer, you choose to ignore anything that may question your faith? That's a great response. If this is a time of such great reflection, why are you so scared of reflecting on your own religion and how it can grow and develop...a time to reflect on the flaws that exist, and the best ways to approach those? If you would rather just call me a troll and skip over my statements, that's up to you, but I think I have raised some valid points that people are having a lot of trouble actually dealing with, here. We could have a very interesting conversation, but instead, I raise points, they are called attacks and dismissed. Yaaaa...great religion you have going there, folks.

 

[sanctus]

I might as well post my original PM to marygaspe, which she forwarded to sanctus, which is now here. So then people can take a tackle at all my issues with the Catholic branch. And why I am Protestant. May change my mind, if I get some solid tackled answers! Cheers!:




Write away!

I'm not trying to be a control freak, but might I ask that we keep this to this topic. The other issues can be different threads. Otherwise I think the confusion of what we are talking about will set in. You've got a half dozen different issues and I was going to post them one at a time to deal with. Let's keep this thread to the role of women in the church and deal with the others in other threads. OK?

 

[sanctus]

Sanctus

I don't have any response other than this concerning women's role in the Church.

The primary role it would seem for the birth of Christianity was the birth of Jesus Christ right?
How was this accomplished?
A woman gave birth to him - a human woman - if we are to believe the Scriptures.

Therefore I can only conclude God saw fit to give women a primary role in the church... and
humans have chosen otherwise.

Unless God saw fit to give woman the role of birthing only and that is why the church is so mired in women's rights and roles. Modern woman is far more accomplished than a vessel for childbirth.

I am not arguing what is now....because it is not my faith or belief system .... I am only pointing
out an historical event.

I know you're intentions and that they are pure. The fact is, we are unable to decide this issue in the Church. Christ created the priesthood, and in doing so He choose only men. Some have said He was controlled by the social mores of His time. I don't think so, for in many, many ways He went against the grain. Had our Lord wished women in the priesthood, He'd have appointed them to the Apostles.

 

[sanctus]

Do women who are of the Roman Catholic Faith feel comfortable in their secondary role as dictated by the church?

Perhaps we in modern times have gone too far in the search for equality of the sexes and perhaps women would prefer to be educated but still have a more accepting role in their faith - that of a mother or nurturing person.

Perhaps the role isn't secondary at all to men - only one unique to women therefore to be honored as such and that is how women of that faith see themselves.

In my experience, admittedly as a man, this is not that big an issue in the Church. It is a bigger issue for people outside of the Church for some reason.

 

[sanctus]

I agree. Another thing that ocurred to me is that many Catholics don't take the story of creation as a literal truth, they believe that God set evolution in motion. But if God set evolution in motion, did He intend for it to cease upon the arrival of His son? Did He mean for us to stay in one place, never change, never grow? I highly doubt He did.

No, perhaps not. But one thing is very true about God, at no time does He change the doctrines to suit the times. In other words, what was true 20 years ago was true 100 and 2,000 years ago. This is one of the sacraments of the Church. I hardly see God changing the nature of the Sacraments to suit the modern world.

 

[sanctus]

The Taliban chop off women's heads if they are caught in even the slightest infraction against their religion. Showing a bit of bare skin in public will do it. How long ago was it that Christian women were treated in roughly the same fashion by being stoned to death. Stoned to death because god's word demanded it. How long ago was it that they burned women at the stake because they were thought to be witches?

How many people in today's society still believe in witches adn excorcism? Does the catholic church believe in excorcism and do they still practice it in a few hidden cases?

EVIL, and it's not the atheist who is evil!

Most of this post has nothing at all to do with the role of women in the Church.

 

[talloola]

[
Likewise women are not meant to be the head of man in the home or in the church. Our roles are unique. Equally important but different still the same.[/quote]

"BLEEP'

 

[sanctus]

(Quote)
Adam represents the Spirit breath of God. Eve represents the flesh. When God breathe His Spirit into the clay vessel, a living soul was created.

As long as we are in the flesh, sin will be there.
(End quote)

Maybe I am too sensitive but these quotes have materialized into EVE(the woman) = FLESH = SIN. Don't tell me that I am a feminist because I am not. Why do many religions including the RC treat women as if we are unworthy of participating in the ministry as men? A women gave birth to Jesus the son of God concieved by the Immaculate Conception, it had nothing to with a man and his sperm yet man alone has the privilege of being a religious leader. This still permeates many aspects of our everyday life. Women have fought long and hard against discrimination but still have a long way to go. When will we be truly treated as equals? Are we so evil that we must have limitations put on us by men?

Don't get me wrong I don't hate men, I love them and am married to one of the best men in the world out treats me as his equal.

Hope I did not insult anyone but this is a question that haunts me maybe someone can give me an answer.

I understand what you are saying. But consider this, we are talking about the secular versus the religious worlds. At times the two combine, and other times they cannot. The primary function of the Church is to maintain the faith entrusted to it by Christ. Holy Mother Church recognizes that men and women are equal, but in some things they have different roles to play. the priesthood was established by Christ. It is one of the 7 Sacraments of the Church. As Catholics, we are a Sacramental people. The Sacraments frame and condition our walk in Christ. None of the Sacraments, we believe, were created by mankind, but from God. That being the case, we believe we have no authority to change the nature of any of the Sacraments.

 

[sanctus]

So, once again, instead of responding with a worthwhile answer, you choose to ignore anything that may question your faith? That's a great response. If this is a time of such great reflection, why are you so scared of reflecting on your own religion and how it can grow and develop...a time to reflect on the flaws that exist, and the best ways to approach those? If you would rather just call me a troll and skip over my statements, that's up to you, but I think I have raised some valid points that people are having a lot of trouble actually dealing with, here. We could have a very interesting conversation, but instead, I raise points, they are called attacks and dismissed. Yaaaa...great religion you have going there, folks.

Yes, it is a great religion. It is also a very special time for us. This is a thread regarding Lent, not the doctrines of the Church on homosexuality.It is a time for self-reflection and preparation for Easter, our holiest day of the Church year.