why is it dangerous to celebrate the mass. what really is the difference. under the title of this thread, do you think it is a sin to have fun in church?
How can we get rid of our sinfulness?
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why is it dangerous to celebrate the mass. what really is the difference. under the title of this thread, do you think it is a sin to have fun in church?
dosent jesus say that he comes to bring love? so, why would he think we had to be catholic or christian or whatever to worship god? its just a term we created, isnt it?i dont believe jesus would excluse people just because they dont believe in him.
I knew I'd get into trouble.....
Santos - Maybe "fun" wasn't the appropriate word - I didn't mean fun ha ha! I meant "fun" in the most basic way.
I don't believe that it's "selfish" to expect joy, hope, peace and love from my worship experience. I would rather hope everyone would want to feel that way. And I WOULD want to "celebrate" any relationship with God whether it be at a Catholic Mass or any other service I would attend.
Each person's relationship with Him is different I would suspect. I suspect, not unlike parents, children would be more receptive to how much God Loves us rather than how bad we are from the get go and how the ravages of Hell will surely be ours if we're not good. In otherwords, there has to be a better way of getting the message across.
Most of my life I haven't felt worthy because surely I held the wrath of God in me. Often times I would think, what's the point when I'm probably condemed anyway.
It has only been recently that I've come to realize that God is not hell and condemnation but LOVE. Can you imagine - GOD IS LOVE! I found that to be an amazing revalation. WOW! It actually gives me hope!! That single most important realization was almost like the whole world's burden was off my shoulders. After so many, many years thinking He was just waiting for me to Sin (which, being human, I was apt to do) so I could go to hell!! Any "goodness" was derived by fear and not because it was right and the better thing to do. At least that was my experience.
I certainly hope that Catechism is taught differently in todays Catholic Schools. I hope that Love, Respect, Responsibility, etc., etc., are words that are used more often to get the message across. That doesn't mean that the consequences of doing "bad" things aren't covered, just that it's not the only thing.
JMO
Santos - Maybe "fun" wasn't the appropriate word - I didn't mean fun ha ha! I meant "fun" in the most basic way.
I don't believe that it's "selfish" to expect joy, hope, peace and love from my worship experience. I would rather hope everyone would want to feel that way. And I WOULD want to "celebrate" any relationship with God whether it be at a Catholic Mass or any other service I would attend.
Each person's relationship with Him is different I would suspect. I suspect, not unlike parents, children would be more receptive to how much God Loves us rather than how bad we are from the get go and how the ravages of Hell will surely be ours if we're not good. In otherwords, there has to be a better way of getting the message across.
Most of my life I haven't felt worthy because surely I held the wrath of God in me. Often times I would think, what's the point when I'm probably condemed anyway.
It has only been recently that I've come to realize that God is not hell and condemnation but LOVE. Can you imagine - GOD IS LOVE! I found that to be an amazing revalation. WOW! It actually gives me hope!! That single most important realization was almost like the whole world's burden was off my shoulders. After so many, many years thinking He was just waiting for me to Sin (which, being human, I was apt to do) so I could go to hell!! Any "goodness" was derived by fear and not because it was right and the better thing to do. At least that was my experience.
I certainly hope that Catechism is taught differently in todays Catholic Schools. I hope that Love, Respect, Responsibility, etc., etc., are words that are used more often to get the message across. That doesn't mean that the consequences of doing "bad" things aren't covered, just that it's not the only thing.
JMO
How can we get rid of our sinfulness
What is wrong with “celebrating” Mass? Do you actually know what celebrating means? Here is what I think:
CELEBRATE:
- to observe or commemorate: the day of the Lord
- to make known or proclaim: that Christ died for our sins
- to sound the praises or extol: the love, forgiveness and teaching of the Lord
- to laud, glorify and honor: the Lord
where is the heresy or blasphemy in that. To me saying Mass is very cold and unfeeling. I know that is not what you mean, the same as when I say “fun”.
As far as the Church doctrines being eternal and must not change at any time, I disagree on certain points. As far as I am concerned only God and our afterlife with Him are eternal. Does that mean that the Church put itself on the same level with God? The Church is a teacher of His Word period but the window dressing was written by men has somewhat blurred things and have discouraged some people from trying to follow.
You have a right to your ideas about SAYING Mass but when you say “my Masses” it irks me. Since when do you OWN a Mass??? Also excluding laypersons from distributing Sacraments you are doing what the Church has done for eons, putting yourself on a pedestal and isolating the belivers to the status of observers with no worth.
Here is an example: the Blessed Virigin was impregnated by Immaculate Conception before she married Joseph – therefore she was an unwed mother- in that case why did the Church condem unwed mothers and put them through the hell on earth they did? There are many still living with the scars today.
I agree there is a lot wrong with society today and when I read about all that is going on in the world it makes me nervous. I agree that humanity has sins and continues to sin today but I also believe that the men who have run the Church have also sinned and one of them is portraying that they are holier than thou.
I confess that my trust (note I did not say FAITH) in the Church is pretty well inexistent. However my FAITH in God has not limit! I speak to Him every night and offer him my day every morning. I try to love everyone as He loves us, sometime it is not easy. I try not to JUDGE for judgement is HIS but boy do some people stretch my limit.
Please do not take the above as judgement on my part, but they are points of view. My father always said that the biggest gift GOD gave us was our intelligence with the ability to reason and ask questions. When God created us He gave us free will to choose, what we have to do with that is reason out what is right and what is wrong. We need the Church as a guide and a coach not as one who condems and control our lives, that would be ursurping the FREE WILL God gave us. In the end the only judge we will answer to is GOD.
What is wrong with “celebrating” Mass? Do you actually know what celebrating means? Here is what I think:
CELEBRATE:
- to observe or commemorate: the day of the Lord
- to make known or proclaim: that Christ died for our sins
- to sound the praises or extol: the love, forgiveness and teaching of the Lord
- to laud, glorify and honor: the Lord
where is the heresy or blasphemy in that. To me saying Mass is very cold and unfeeling. I know that is not what you mean, the same as when I say “fun”.
As far as the Church doctrines being eternal and must not change at any time, I disagree on certain points. As far as I am concerned only God and our afterlife with Him are eternal. Does that mean that the Church put itself on the same level with God? The Church is a teacher of His Word period but the window dressing was written by men has somewhat blurred things and have discouraged some people from trying to follow.
You have a right to your ideas about SAYING Mass but when you say “my Masses” it irks me. Since when do you OWN a Mass??? Also excluding laypersons from distributing Sacraments you are doing what the Church has done for eons, putting yourself on a pedestal and isolating the belivers to the status of observers with no worth.
Here is an example: the Blessed Virigin was impregnated by Immaculate Conception before she married Joseph – therefore she was an unwed mother- in that case why did the Church condem unwed mothers and put them through the hell on earth they did? There are many still living with the scars today.
I agree there is a lot wrong with society today and when I read about all that is going on in the world it makes me nervous. I agree that humanity has sins and continues to sin today but I also believe that the men who have run the Church have also sinned and one of them is portraying that they are holier than thou.
I confess that my trust (note I did not say FAITH) in the Church is pretty well inexistent. However my FAITH in God has not limit! I speak to Him every night and offer him my day every morning. I try to love everyone as He loves us, sometime it is not easy. I try not to JUDGE for judgement is HIS but boy do some people stretch my limit.
Please do not take the above as judgement on my part, but they are points of view. My father always said that the biggest gift GOD gave us was our intelligence with the ability to reason and ask questions. When God created us He gave us free will to choose, what we have to do with that is reason out what is right and what is wrong. We need the Church as a guide and a coach not as one who condems and control our lives, that would be ursurping the FREE WILL God gave us. In the end the only judge we will answer to is GOD.
Going to Church isn't just about being a community though, because if we are true believers, we have an obligation t go to church as part of the Christian community.
Your views reflect the very modern ideology about God. This suggests that it does not matter what we do as long as we are good people inside.I suggest you re-read the Scriptures, because this is not what God teaches us at all.
I am fully aware, trust me, of what is meant by the term in Church usage.I did not say it was in and of itself blasphemey, I said it often leads to same.
I do mean saying Mass, which is the chief job of the priest, above and beyond all is other duties, is to say Mass.
Than you deny one of the core beliefs of Catholicism, namely that the Church was created by God. The members of the Church do not have the authority to change the doctrines of the faith.These are eternal. It is the task of the Church to safeguard the faith and to administer the Sacraments.
These are not MY ideas, these have been the teaching of the Church since its inception. The number one duty of the priest is to say Mass-period. that is his calling above and beyond anything else.
It is not the job of the laypeople to handle the Sacred Body and Blood-that is the job of the priest. Our last Holy Father was quite against the North American custom of using laypeople to distirbute the Sacraments. In fact, the "eucharistic minister" is not a Catholic term. This is a protestant innovation incorporated into NA parishes by liberal bishops and priests.
The parishioners have their job too at Mass, to pray it with the priest and to receive the Word of God in the Gospel and the Homily and to receive the Sacraments. The Mass is about God, not the priest or the people.
When I say my mass, it indicates that I am saying the Mass.
This quote I isolated above is the number one problem with self-styled theologians, especially current amongst too many laypeople today. The doctrines of the Church are not things to be picked and chosen as one would a pair of pants or shoes. It matters little what any of us THINK about them. They are wha they are, and it is our job as faithful Catolics to condition our lives according to the teachings of the Church.
It's back to that very common problem we have in the Church world today-this concept of 'ME" which I mentioned before-this idea that the individual must be content and happy above all else. This concept is a byproduct of the 1970's and is an example of narcisstic teachings and opinions.
I will play devil's advocate here--who cares what YOU think??? That has nothing to do with Church doctrine. And before you suggest I am being above the layperson, it is also of no importance what I think about Church doctrine either.God determines His doctrines, not me, not you, not the man on the street.
What this really boils down to is what is the Mass and what is an Evangelical/Pentecostal service. Are they the same things or have the same goals?
The Mass is the corporate worship of God which has various parts and functions--too many to list here for our purposes. But, the main focus of the Mass is the Eucharist--the representing of Christ's offering of himself for our sins and our receiving his body and blood, soul and divinity. Everything that comes before it leads to it and fully appreciating all that it means.
Protestant services vary widely according to their beliefs and intentions in gathering together. For Evangelicals/Pentecostals I think it is safe to say that the main focus of the Sunday morning service is the sermon. Everything before it is meant to enhance it.
With such basic differences in intention and rites (and yes, Evangelicals have rites--they just don't call them that) it's no wonder that what the Catholic and the Evangelical are doing as a part of corporate worship differs so drastically.
Do not confuse worship services with the Mass. The Mass is not a 'service.' Novenas are a service. The Stations of the Cross are a service. The Mass (as per the Bible, Tradition and especially, Revelation -where many of its images come from) is the core of Christian belief: the True Presence of our Lord in the Eucharist.
It is fine if people want to be exhuberant and happy praising god. But I disagree that everyone in any church service all share that same emotion and therefore it becomes fake or put on for many. I think services should be sober. Also, there is the mistaken notion that Joy=Happy. This is not the case. Joy is much more profound than the happy thing. We can be joyful in our sufferings - this element (suffering) is ignored by and large by our evangelical friends.
Nothing changed the beliefs of the Church are the same.
The council stressed how we can update our practice of the faith to better express it to the world and share it with each other.
Unfortunately there were many who have taken this "spirit" and just mis-interpreted Vatican II to some serious extremes which has destroyed the faith of many people, resulting in the lack of belief in the Eucharist and the falling away many Catholics.
Nowdays we are seeing the negatives and many are reacting
favorably by doing what the council intended.
We just need to weed out the negative and start authentically implementing Vatican II, as the dissenters have had a field day with the Church. By not doing what Vatican II said and just seeking their own personal desires they have placed themselves above God.
Here is the clincher folks: whatever religion or belief one holds if in that arena one does not demonstrate a Godly type of love, then that religion is useless to mankind and to self.
Sanctus, I admire!. He is holding his own in an age where change is popular.
I see him demonstrating patience, kindness and a willingness to entertain other points of view without being condemning.
Now that is a trait in him that you won’t find in many of the other religions, for if you don’t believe as they do, you are condemned. (Hell bound)
I’ve grown out of the dilemma but studying to understand the real love of God and how He applied it.
One way to understand what that is, is to place yourself on the cross, as like Jesus was, and look down from that point to see the world whose wrath put you there, and then say, “Father, forgive them for they know not what they do”.
The soldiers who beat Him, scourged Him with thorns, and especially to His own people who rejected Him and then for the few (remnant) who really did believed in Him, all given the free gift of salvation by the Fathers acceptance of the sacrifice of Jesus.
Now, if that isn’t love, nothing else is.
Therefore, search the world over, pour over all the books ever written, study all the religions and all the Greek Mythologies including the Mayan beliefs and their discoveries and I can tell you that to all of it, it is a sore travail.
Only,……. only to find that what I was seeking for what there all the time, in one word.
Love: God’s love of which are: no barriers, boundaries, color, race or creeds.
If there is not Godly love, then you remain in the grasp of this world, and as I mentioned earlier, the wrath of mankind is all there is.
Your choice!
Peace>>>AJ
Sanctus, I admire!. He is holding his own in an age where change is popular.
I see him demonstrating patience, kindness and a willingness to entertain other points of view without being condemning.
Now that is a trait in him that you won’t find in many of the other religions, for if you don’t believe as they do, you are condemned. (Hell bound)
I’ve grown out of the dilemma but studying to understand the real love of God and how He applied it.
One way to understand what that is, is to place yourself on the cross, as like Jesus was, and look down from that point to see the world whose wrath put you there, and then say, “Father, forgive them for they know not what they do”.
The soldiers who beat Him, scourged Him with thorns, and especially to His own people who rejected Him and then for the few (remnant) who really did believed in Him, all given the free gift of salvation by the Fathers acceptance of the sacrifice of Jesus.
Now, if that isn’t love, nothing else is.
Therefore, search the world over, pour over all the books ever written, study all the religions and all the Greek Mythologies including the Mayan beliefs and their discoveries and I can tell you that to all of it, it is a sore travail.
Only,……. only to find that what I was seeking for what there all the time, in one word.
Love: God’s love of which are: no barriers, boundaries, color, race or creeds.
If there is not Godly love, then you remain in the grasp of this world, and as I mentioned earlier, the wrath of mankind is all there is.
Your choice!
Peace>>>AJ
Thank you AJ! It is true, when it comes to the Cathoic faith, I am firmly traditional, without apology or reservation. God's teachings never change nor are they contradictory. Trends and secular beliefs have no place in God's Holy Church.
Sme externals, yes certainly we can use modern English in the Liturgy. Newer hymns, of course. but in the core of Holy Mass, nothing must change for to do so would indicate God was incorrect in instructing His Church how to worship.
You got that right
Christmas is over in the secular world, but not in the Church. we've a few more weeks of the Christmas masses to go.In fact, I'm leaving in a few seconds to begin today's series of Masses...probably with only a handful in the pews. Same as yesterday, Christmas Day we see not as many as we do Christmas Eve.Often, when saying goodbye at the Christmas Eve Midnight Mass, I like to mention to those twice a year folk that we are open on Sundays and they want want to drop in on their way to the Mall
Actually, it is the second busiest time in the Church year for us. The first is the Season of Lent and Easter..lots going on at that time!