How can we get rid of our sinfulness?

[look3467]

What's wrong with embracing the notion that love of our fellows is a fundamental component of our very human very natural and "normal" rapproachement to this experience of existence?>>>Micky

Absolutely nothing wrong with that notion! That notion is like a seed planted in the soil of your heart.

You weren't born with your current concept of god or godliness or "religious belief", you learned that. You accepted what you've learned (for your own reasons and to which you are absolutely entitled) and continue to perceive the world through that lens. I'm not trying to pick a fight here my friend but I've never seen an "absolute" beyond the ubiquitious presence of gravity for instance... Suggesting that some word or logos if you prefer informs your consciousness that there is a god that loves you in ways beyond your ability to comprehend and understand isn't rational. I understand as well that if the infomed conscience is infomed through feelings and emotions that doesn't automatically disqualify their veracity or nature, however, I've studied the writing of Aristotle for instance and even he acknowledges that it is through faith and not reason that statements like "God loves you more than what we give Him credit for." can be made.>>>Micky

You have a good point there Micky. And studying Aristotle’s works are fine too.

The creation story shows the works of God the Father as parceled out bit by bit and by various writers as inspired by His spirit. Writers who: had their own weaknesses and failures in life, but just the same, writers.

Compromising, mainly the Old Testament portion of the Bible.

Now in these writings, all of which in a harmonious agreement, point to a coming Messiah, of which all mankind is to be a part of.

There are secular writers such as Aristotle, Socrates and Plato, who themselves observed of a Divine intelligence superior to that of human kind.

Aristotle views on God:

“In his metaphysics, Aristotle argued for the existence of a divine being, described as the Prime Mover, who is responsible for the unity and purposefulness of nature. God is perfect and therefore the aspiration of all things in the world, because all things desire to share perfection”

.>>> Encyclopedia Article

These writers also included in the divine plan by which all mankind would benefit from their works as well.

Continued—

PeaceAJ

 

[look3467]

Continued from last post—

I believe when we die we're dead. Since the facility to experience "love" is available to only the living, I don't really see the value in investing a great deal in the suggestion that my loving behavior toward my fellows will be rwarded after I shuck this mortal coil. I have no memory of the world that existed prior to my entrance and I'm quite sure that many people loved their children and each other without any requisite for belief that this faculty is intimately interwoven with an understanding of an omnicient creator being..>>>Micky

Again, not fully understanding the creation story, one would think as you do. Which by my understanding, is fine, but I would think based on my life and experience of God in my life, that yours might be a bit richer if you understood what I know.

Love is something that is not of this world. It is found in this world as an exterior component administered by the creator.

We all know how to love our kids, wife’s and friends, but the real test of the Godly love is when someone does us wrong. Are we able to forgive a wrong done us, and if so, is it because love moved us to?

How does a Christian or a Moslem know (not to believe or embrace through "faith") that there will be virgins waiting in heaven for the Jihadist or that god's mansion has many rooms...etc>>>Micky

As a Christian:

Gods message to us is in the Bible.

This is what we find in it:
1. The creation
2. The fall of mankind
3. The required punishment for the fall
4. Salvation from the fall

In it, you will find all your answers as I have found mine.

I know to believe by faith based upon the bible that there are many mansions in His kingdom, and my reward is not to those mansions, but to the man who acquired a mansion for me.

(Mansion is an abode, not a building by scriptural definition)

As far as for the Moslems belief in virgins in heaven, well, that’s their belief.

But in my belief, I include all of them into the heaven of God.

It's manipulation of desire and preference without any substantiation of any kind...>>>Micky

True! Without the perspective of a creator God, that stands to reason, as per your quote: Without the bogeyman of a supernatural entity....? I would add: God.

Peace, my friend

AJ

 

[sanctus]

but what does that mean really? who decided what is and isnt married? if two guys are really in love, isnt that what marriage is all about, and if they want to spend all their lives together, the church should be celebrating this fact, not condemning it.

We believe that God has determined the Sacraments, one of which is matrimony. Jesus Himself teaches that a man is to marry one woman and the two shall be one flesh.

The Church, as the vechicle through which God dispenses His Sacraments, does not have permission to change those Sacraments to suit popular opinion. Nor does it have license to celebrate anything contrary to what we believe is expressly forbidden by God.

 

[sanctus]

okay, that was jesus, but is our love tested. do you think god sends us tests/ if so that hardly seems fair-the world is hard enough without having to deal with a god playing head games with us.

Of course God does not purposely test us in the meanner in which you describe. He has given us the freedom to choose how we shall behave. If anything, we test ourselves. Humanity is very good at setting up obstacles in our lives that removes us from the grace of God.

 

[sanctus]

lol
I could just as validly claim that the tooth faerie is fact. On the other hand, a valid fact would be something like a molecule of water is comprised of 2 hydrogen atoms and an oxygen atom: it is irrefutable and leaves no room for debate.
It would be better to simply say that for you, Yahweh exists, IMO, just as for me it is an item of imagination.

My friend, that is just semantics. Of course to believe in God one begins with the self.

 

[sanctus]

I do not understand the whole debate. This is just as simple as breathing...

Live your life. Live and let live as you wish to be left to live, judge not anyone that you do not agree with and embrace the variables in life. Treat people as you would be treaded.

See simple, well unless you're into BDSM, then don't treat people as you be treated. Ouch!!!

To rid yourself of sin is as easy as breathing, just be and let be, follow your convictions and seek only to be you. You will see your heaven in the end if you follow your own path with self respect and respect of others.

Very well put. I might add that sin is in and of itself a byproduct of our inability to follow these basic conditions, very much a condition of our own self-centredness.

 

[sanctus]

Well it seems Sanctus that your facility to tolerance is limited and you're less than completely available to the concept of forgiveness....

If you don't like something somone points out to you then you can "argue" the point or you can deny the point....

Nice to have your vote!

I'm afraid I do not understand the context in which you are making these comments?

 

[sanctus]

I believe in a God, or at the very least something of a higher power. I've had experiences that make me believe that there is someone there. I just don't believe "organized" religion is necessarily the way to go for me. Too hypocritical. As for all the bible quotes - they mean nothing to me because I don't understand them and they seem to be subject to various interpretations (depending on who you speak to).

One of the reasons we were given the Church is to avoid this very thing, in other words the possibility of private interpretation of the Scriptures. Be cautious in judging the Church. Remember that the actions of some of its membership is not necessarily the fault of the Church itself.

I sometimes think I'd like to attend a church with a Black Congregation because they really look like they're having a lot of fun singing and praying and stuff. Don't know that I have the courage (I'm white) and it probably doesn't matter - it's MY issue not theirs. But I think worshipping should be FUN!!!!

So the concept of worship for you depends on the element of "fun"?

 

[sanctus]

not trying to pick a fight here my friend but I've never seen an "absolute" beyond the ubiquitious presence of gravity for instance... Suggesting that some word or logos if you prefer informs your consciousness that there is a god that loves you in ways beyond your ability to comprehend and understand isn't rational.

Faith does not require understanding necessarily. We do not have to be judged "rational" in our belief in God, His Church or His teachings. It is a human weakness that requires everything to be determined by what is rational or not rational to the self.

How does a Christian or a Moslem know (not believe or embrace through "faith" that there will be virgins waiting in heaven for the Jihadist or that god's mansion has many rooms...etc.....?

As to the Muslim beliefs, I cannot answer personally for false religions and their teachings. As for the Church, I can tell you that its teachings indicate that there is room in Heaven for anyone who wishes to join God in beatific splendour. Jesus indicated, with His teaching of the "many rooms", a metaphoric concept that the afterlife in God's grace has room for all peoples who wish to believe in Him.

 

[Sparrow]

How can we get rid of our sinfulness

Good morning Sanctus

I believe in God with my whole being. God gave us free will, and the most precious gift "INTELLIGENCE" which gives us rationality and questions.

Did God no say "judge not lest you be judged" or "judgement is Mine" it has been a long time since religion courses in school. When you say that Muslim beliefs are false your are judging, now it depends which Muslims you are talking about because they also believe in God "Allah". Where the bad comes in is in the teaching of their Imans "priests" and their Mosques "churches". Just like in our churches it depends on the men doing the teaching. The church has done more than its part in judging others so why should we not judge the church. As you probably think Jesus created the church but it is man that has run it with it good parts and it sins. Religion was written by man with his interpretations, some good and some bad. The church is an instution that is supposed to represent God and his teachings but it taught prejudice against other religions for years. I can remember when we were forbidden to even talk to Protestants and Anglicans because we were taught there were false religions. I don't care what religion anyone belongs to, if that religion teaches tolerance, love, and respect of others.

To me one of the biggest sins is not using our intelligence which breeds questions. That would mean acting like sheep and God never ask for that!

As far as church being "fun", I agree it should be fun. When we go to church we are celebrating God. Celebrating should be a happy time, the church says "celebrate Mass", "celebrate the sacraments" lets celebrate. I do not go to church because I find it dull and boring, I guess the church interprets this as being serious. You can be serious and joyous at the same time. I think the church has lost contact with the people, God never said not to evolve with the times. He gave humans the intelligence to evolve but the church is a little stubborn on that point. God created all without exception even homosexuals because he is the beginning of live and they are born that way, but the church in its words are saying that God made a mistake when HE created.

I think God wants us to question and make up our own mind. Some of us will make mistakes but God will forgive us.

Merry Christmas and may God watch over you.

 

[Dixie Cup]

So the concept of worship for you depends on the element of "fun"?

Yes, the key word being "element". Why shouldn't worhipping be fun? I think it's wonderful way of expressing yourself and I want to learn how to do that. To know Him is to know joy is it not?? Isn't basking in His love suppose to be fulfilling and a joyful experience??

Each person can worship in their own way and I just would prefer something joyful as opposed to fire and brimstone all the time. The latter I've had enough of, thank you very much, as my "Catholic guilt" knows no bounds. As a result, I have a VERY VERY difficult time forgiving myself for the wrongs I've done but no problem forgiving others. I would just like to learn to "let go" of my guilt and get on with trying to do better.

Seems to me the spirit flows better in a Black Congregation, and besides, music and singing move me. Worshipping is serious as well, it just doesn't always have to be.

Geez, I'm really having a hard time trying to express myself, mainly because I've never really ever spoken to anyone about this issue. I guess that's why I find this Thread so interesting.

Merry Christmas!

 

[MikeyDB]

Everyday can be approached as a new opportunity to exercise tolerance compassion kindness and forgiveness. It is up to each of us as individuals to actualize our beliefs.

And a good and Merry Christmas to you as well!

 

[MikeyDB]

Note for Dixie Cup

“I have a VERY VERY difficult time forgiving myself for the wrongs I've done but no problem forgiving others.”


We are all critical pieces of the mosaic that is an awareness of “being”.

We all carry with us the potential for misinterpretation, misunderstanding and prejudice. We are all capable of making mistakes and sometimes failing in our efforts to live in and with peace.

You are part of this “All” and you enjoy the same access to forgiveness and self-forgiveness as does everyone else. Forgiveness must begin with identifying where the conflict or difficulty arose that engendered or influenced us in our less than satisfactory response.

Remember that every experience you will ever have you will have for a “first time”. No one can predict and consequently prepare him or herself in advance for meeting with life’s difficult periods. Your experiences contribute insight into meeting adversity and pain at some future time only if you’ve experienced it before or if you possess and practice a finely honed sense of empathy and compassion. These take a lifetime to build.

We begin learning the moment we take our first breath and are immediately enrolled in the school of life. You didn’t know the “correct” answer to 1 + 1 until you’d been taught the language of mathematics… is it reasonable to expect of yourself or anyone else that each one of us possesses of all the right answers to all of life’s questions?

Self-forgiveness enriches our capacity to forgive others.

Guilt impedes our success in developing an even greater capacity to forgiveness for ourselves…. and each other. Guilt left un-redressed or unacknowledged is a burden not a boon. Shed your self-accusation and self-blame and you will find the capacity to self-forgive.

Understand that making a mistake is entirely human but that repeating the same mistake is a choice.

Forgiveness is the “flip-side” of guilt.

 

[look3467]

So the concept of worship for you depends on the element of "fun"?

Yes, the key word being "element". Why shouldn't worhipping be fun? I think it's wonderful way of expressing yourself and I want to learn how to do that. To know Him is to know joy is it not?? Isn't basking in His love suppose to be fulfilling and a joyful experience??

Each person can worship in their own way and I just would prefer something joyful as opposed to fire and brimstone all the time. The latter I've had enough of, thank you very much, as my "Catholic guilt" knows no bounds. As a result, I have a VERY VERY difficult time forgiving myself for the wrongs I've done but no problem forgiving others. I would just like to learn to "let go" of my guilt and get on with trying to do better.

Seems to me the spirit flows better in a Black Congregation, and besides, music and singing move me. Worshipping is serious as well, it just doesn't always have to be.

Geez, I'm really having a hard time trying to express myself, mainly because I've never really ever spoken to anyone about this issue. I guess that's why I find this Thread so interesting.

Merry Christmas!

And a happy, joyous and wonderful Christmas to you.

Yes, God stuff is fun. For contentment in what we have is to have peace of mind, and especially when we count our blessing is when we rejoice and prasie Him from the depths of our hearts.

In deep times of throuble, we rejoice still for we know that our souls are safe in His arms.

This is the confidence that we have in Him.

Singing and yes, even dancing in joy of spirit.

For He is worthy to be praised and honored with our all.

Peace>>>AJ

 

[look3467]

Self-forgiveness enriches our capacity to forgive others.>>>Micky

Excellent post! Everthing you said is human potential.

But, I must add the element of God to it, to enrich it above and beyond the human element.

I'd say, that you have the a good understanding of the human element, as like Dr. Phil if you don't mind my comparrison.

Peace>>>AJ

 

[look3467]

When you say that Muslim beliefs are false your are judging, now it depends which Muslims you are talking about because they also believe in God "Allah".>>>Sparrow

Hi,
A belief structure such as the Christian belief of Jesus being the “only” way divides them from the rest of the world.
Therefore, the determination would be that of a: false religions.

Only but, and if we understood what that verse really means, we would understand the plight (Circumstances) of the rest of the world.

The verse I am referring to is this: Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Peace>>>AJ

 

[csanopal]

Good morning Sanctus

I believe in God with my whole being. God gave us free will, and the most precious gift "INTELLIGENCE" which gives us rationality and questions.

Did God no say "judge not lest you be judged" or "judgement is Mine" it has been a long time since religion courses in school. When you say that Muslim beliefs are false your are judging, now it depends which Muslims you are talking about because they also believe in God "Allah". Where the bad comes in is in the teaching of their Imans "priests" and their Mosques "churches". Just like in our churches it depends on the men doing the teaching. r you.

It is for sure that Islam’s deity is not the God of the Christians for the simple fact, that God’s love for Israel was declared openly steadfast and eternal and Jesus Christ sent by God, was born as a Jew, sent as a Jew and died as King of the Jews. Yet today, the muslims are taught to massacre Jews.

The bible states that he who denies the Father and the Son and the deity of Christ is the Anti-Christ. Islam does this openly and thereby classifies itself as the Anti-Christian religion.

The book of revelations in 20:4 states that saints will be beheaded for Christ but later resurrected by God. Again, the only ones doing beheading in the entire world is the muslims.

Beyond a doubt, the deity of islam that hates Jews, promotes re-marriages, supports its founder’s incestuous relationship with his own adopted son’s wife plus pedophilic activities with little 9 year old girls totally violate the teachings of God.

The name allah is the name of an idol. Muslims say “there is no god but allah”, this naturally means that the word allah cannot literally mean god because no one says “there is no hill but hill”. Putting this together, muslims who shout allahu akhbar (allah is greater/greatest) are actually openly challenging that allah is greater than even God.

Now, with all these facts in place why should we force ourselves to agree with the ludicrous claim that just because we believe in one God, therefore allah must be it? Why not YHWH? Or are we acquiescing out of our dilemma to have God replaced right under our noses through some diabolical plan?

John 17:3
Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

 

[sanctus]

Good morning Sanctus

I believe in God with my whole being. God gave us free will, and the most precious gift "INTELLIGENCE" which gives us rationality and questions.

Did God no say "judge not lest you be judged" or "judgement is Mine" it has been a long time since religion courses in school. When you say that Muslim beliefs are false your are judging, now it depends which Muslims you are talking about because they also believe in God "Allah". .

Imagine two people with their television sets in two adjacent houses, tuned in to the same channel at the same time, watching the same news bulletin. One TV set is in excellent condition, and the image of the news broadcaster can be seen perfectly on the screen. The set (or antenna) in the next house is in poor condition, and the image comes out on the screen in a blurry, confused, and partly unrecognizable form. Are the two viewers seeing the same man? Of course they are—there are not two different men in the TV studio producing the two respective images. Because of the second viewer’s defective receiving mechanism, he does not see the true attributes and qualities of the broadcaster’s face.

In the same way, there is only one supreme and eternal Creator of the universe who is recognized as such by both Muslims and Christians. But because of their defective "receiving apparatus"—i.e., they do not accept Christian revelation—Muslims err grievously by not recognizing God’s trinitarian character.

When we say that Muslims and Jews worship the one true God (while rejecting the Trinity), this by no means implies that such worship is as acceptable and pleasing to God as Christian worship "in spirit and in truth," whose principles the Incarnate Word has revealed and which the Catholic Church transmits to us in her teaching, liturgy, and sacraments. Satan has many different lies in his armory; he works by obscuring and twisting our understanding of God and his revelation as well as by seducing us to deny God outright.

It is not judging, which you seriously mis-interpret the Scriptures on this by the way, that I do when I claim they are a false religion. It is fact. All roads DO NOT lead to God necessarily.

 

[sanctus]

Yes, the key word being "element". Why shouldn't worhipping be fun? I think it's wonderful way of expressing yourself and I want to learn how to do that. To know Him is to know joy is it not?? Isn't basking in His love suppose to be fulfilling and a joyful experience??
Merry Christmas!

Your views on the Mass, or worship if you prefer, being "fun" are quite a humanist and secular viewpoint of what Church attendance is supposed to be. I will point out, with no qualms what-so-ever, that attending Mass has nothing to do with how you personally feel. In other words, whether you have fun or not is not the point of going to church. Church attendance is our obligation as Catholics based both on our tradition and the Scriptures. In short, we are required to attend Mass to fulfill our obligations as Christians. Fun has nothing to do with the equation.

Your view relfects this rather odd notion that attending Church must amuse the participants before it is considered a valid experience. The key word for this type of belief is selfishness.

 

[sanctus]

Good morning Sanctus
As far as church being "fun", I agree it should be fun. When we go to church we are celebrating God. Celebrating should be a happy time, the church says "celebrate Mass", "celebrate the sacraments" lets celebrate. I do not go to church because I find it dull and boring, I guess the church interprets this as being serious. You can be serious and joyous at the same time. I think the church has lost contact with the people, you.

This notion of "celebrating Mass" is very modern and very dangerous. It leads to heresy and blasphemy. i am quite traditional in my approach to the Mass. I never "celebrate" the Mass, I say the Mass, a distinct difference.

The Church and its doctrines are eternal, and these do not and must not change at any time. To do so would be to deny Christ.

You must understand that I am what many would call a "trad". Many of the innovations we have witnessed since Vatican Two DO NOT go on in my Masses. For example, no layperson would be permitted to distribute the Sacraments in any Mass I say, ever. When I visit a parish to say Mass I excuse the "eucharistic ministers" for the day, instructing them to sit in the pews as they will not be required. I also tend to always use some Latin in the Mass, in particular with the Canon. In fact, I am one of those who supports a full return to the true Mass(Latin Mass) of Holy Mother Church. This is just to give you an idea of my orientation in terms of how traditional my theology is.

In many areas, I think the after-effects of Vatican Two have been a verifiable disaster for the Church. It has allowed the smoke of Satan to desecrate areas of our faith and our focus.It has created this odd situation which, in truth, has allot to do with this thread. Sinfulness is now almost a daily occupation with a good many Catholics. They do not seek to repent of their sins, now they seek the church to accept their sins as part of their humanity.